How high is high /aka is it safe to play @ 0db

[avink]

Short answer : I know I need a more powerful AVR

Long question(until I upgrade my AVR) : I have Denon 1610 with wharf 9.2 as fronts(6.5' woofer), 9.CS CC(5' woofer) and JBL controlOne as surrounds. No sub added yet. I recently added a 9.cs cc (via grp buy). To hear the dialogues louder/clearer i have to constantly play at higher levels( -10 to0db) to make them audible. I thought adding a CC would help but seems like with no sub I cannot gain any headroom(to relieve them of low frequencies) for my CC/fronts and still need to crank my volume up to 0 - 5 db range esp for watching 5.1 dolby HD channels (TS HD). I have run Audyssey and tried dynamic eq and dynamic vol both. I have tried setting CC as small and large. But it doesnt bring down the vol requirements.

I know 0db is just a reference level but since I read some horror stories of folks clipping their speakers by playing @ high volumes, i wanted to ask -

1. Is it safe to play at around 0db. I am not hearing any distortion though.
2. Would adding a sub help OR would it put more stress/demand on my 1610

 

[delhite2]

Well i can not tell much about your system but mine hovers around -10 to -20.

If you set the speakers to small, the AVR will automatically sets a crossover point whereby all the lower frequencies from the desired channel get t/f to the Sub woofer out, which thereby releases a lot of load off of the AVR (it wont increase the volume though).

The subwoofer (Active ones) will also not add to the stress of your AVR as they are self powered.

So to answer
1. Yes it is perfectly fine if you are saying you hear no distortion, you can actually also increase the individual center channel volume also if you feel the need to do so.

2. Yes, not only the sub will increase the LFE of you system it will actually also bring distortion free mids and high because your AVR will not have the burden of handling the lows.

 

[manoj.p]

The reference level is 75 db, set with pink noise tone. The 0 db level in the receiver means 75db of loudness which is reference. If you run the audessey or other automatic setup application (your receiver may come with it) using the supplied mic, it sets those correctly. if you haven't done that, then you are listening to wrong levels.

Below are the steps to do it manually and with a SPL meter.
Set the volume to 0 db.
Go in Receiver's setup and do distance calibration. Get a measuring tape, measure each speakers distance in ft and enter it in the receiver.
Now, do the level calibration. Receiver will play pink noise tone for each speaker. Place the SPL meter in the listening position. Then increase/reduce the level of each speaker till you get 75db on the SPL meter.
Do the same steps for all speakers and sub(s).

Now, your 0 db is correctly at 75db. Thats the level you listen to. Set it correctly and see if that's too loud. You can then turn it down but you have correct reference point to start with.

Theaters are set at 85db level with 20db of headroom. Meaning theaters can go as loud as 105db in some scenes.

 

[jaudere]

It may be safe for your speakers but not for your ears(if SPL is really going high).

In avr, You can adjust individual speaker level. Use that feature to push up centre speaker level.

Speaker distance setting, rather than measuring, should be kept max(since you are not getting adequate loudness). Higher the value,higher will be the volume delivered by AVR

 

[manoj.p]

Speaker distance setting, rather than measuring, should be kept max(since you are not getting adequate loudness). Higher the value,higher will be the volume delivered by AVR

Speaker distance setting has nothing to do with loudness. All it tells the receiver that the fronts are farther away from you and the sound will get to you little late (in ms) compared to surrounds. Using that distance info, receiver adjusts the delays in each speaker, so the all ch mono sounds gets to your listening position at the same time. If you put incorrect distance, then the delays on surrounds would be wrong. But that won't affect the loudness. Loudness is set by the level alone.

Also, some people set the center speaker level up by a db or so. Makes them hear the vocal's more clear/louder. But setting it quite more will affect the front LCR soundstage. You will notice it most when the sound goes from left to center to right.

 

[spirovious]

I keep my Onkyo level around 30-35 & highest level is around 70.In your case problem can be due to lower sensitivity of speakers & power of 1610 is 75W around.

 

[jaudere]

Speaker distance setting has nothing to do with loudness. All it tells the receiver that the fronts are farther away from you and the sound will get to you little late (in ms) compared to surrounds. Using that distance info, receiver adjusts the delays in each speaker, so the all ch mono sounds gets to your listening position at the same time. If you put incorrect distance, then the delays on surrounds would be wrong. But that won't affect the loudness. Loudness is set by the level alone.

1) I used my yam avr in stereo mode only. so There was no question of delay there.
When i increased the speaker distance in setting, the sound used to get louder.

2)there was a separate adjustment for delay if i remember correctly. So there is no question why speaker distance should affect delay when there is separate adjustment.

I do agree that my experience is with yam Avr only and not denon.

 

[gobble]

Sorry but what am I missing here? I thought music is heard at 85 to 90dB with 100db having potential to damage your ears over a longer duration.

Even a whisper is at 20dB. So why is 0dB too loud?

--G0bble

 

[hydra]

^^ Same question as above

 

[jaudere]

someone please answer my basic queries here. I had asked them previously somewhere but i didnt get answers.

1)On an AVR,Why volume is given in db? E.g. for yam it was -80 to +15db? I mean why it is not just volume 1 to 100?

2) if i dial -25db,what does it exactly mean? I know that it does not mean sound pressure level of 25db. As i understand , sPL will vary depending on listening position & speaker sensitivity for the same -25db.

So does this -25db correspond to 'X' SPL At 'Y' distance with 'N' on. of speakers of 'xx' sensitivity? If yes,what are these X ,Y, N & Z figures?

the need of high volume setting to get adequate SPL may be related to many factors including source material, listening position, speaker sensitivity, individual liking for a particular volume level (& ear related problems especially if the user always works in noisy environment as part of his profession).

I said that it may damage ears only if produces high SPL(in bracket) regardless of what one dials on volume knob. How can one say a whisper is at 20db? The db level will depend upon distance between source of whisper and listener. It cannot be generalized. You may allott a frequency range to whisper but not amplitude.

The OP needs to crank up volume to listen to dialogue. In that process he must be increasing volume of everything in general. Now this definitely has potential to damage ears. Especially in action movies, the recording volume itself peaks suddenly unless you are using a software which smoothens such variations.

This is my personal experience.: in a movie, the actors were talking in a silent room and so the volume was high to listen to dialogues and suddenly there was a blast scene. Both my kids who were sleeping in next room woke up and started crying. The incredibles was another such movie where the volume constantly goes up & down and thats highly dangerous.

 

[akd]

First of all its unusual to crank up to -5dB for a pleasant listening. It seems the issue here is about the gain which is very high. One has to check with different input signal level

1.Check the TS output signal, I guess the volume level is pretty low and thats one reason one has to use a high gain in the amplifier.
2. Check with a normal CD player which sends line level voltage, make the observations. Its usual that one need not go beyond -20dB to -25dB with 75dB pink/test standard noise as )dB in the amp.
3. There DVDs whose sound encoding is done rather at a lower level, and the result is when its played the SPL is unusually low and one needs to crank up the amp section. I have observed neither the surrounds nor the SUB improves the mid frequency range where majority of vocals reside. The simple way of seeing it is surr/SUB are not designed for that.

I think more than the magnitude of dB its the change in dB that matters. The reason is: a speaker's sensitivity is measured by its production of SPL (dB) at a distance of 1m when driven at 1W. Now as different speakers have different sensitivity the amp dB level got to be different for creating almost same level of SPL. A pleasant listening is not too different for different individuals.

As I mentioned input signal level matters a lot - same soundtrack LP record play back usually needs a more dB than CD play back, the reason is simply usually phono section delivers around 200-300mV (rms) while CD players usually send higher

 

[haisaikat]

I have Denon 1610

I have run Audyssey and tried dynamic eq and dynamic vol both.

I have tried setting CC as small and large.

Can you please turn of dynamic volume and audessy altogether (revert to manual setting) since Audessy reduces the effective loudness as the ref level is 0db, I get more loudness by turning off audessy at -25db with my Denon 1911 than I get with Audessy ON at -10db.

Also have you tried setting the relative volume level of the center channel only to something like +5db, I sometimes also do that for some movies.

Lastly setting the speaker as Small and Large has nothing to do with liudness rather they are related to the speaker';s capability of playing low frequencies. If your Bass setting mode is LFE+Main then all low frequencies from your other "Small" speakers are sent to your "Large" speakers as well apart from Sub for additional effect.

 

[jaudere]

I thought music is heard at 85 to 90dB

--G0bble

1) i would say music is 'generally' heard at that level. But individualy it varies.

2) the question was more related to movies and about dialogues in particular. I have tried to explain how it may damage ears in some action movies.

3) it is not only SPL as absolute figure but in addition, it is sudden change in spl that also matters. In a silent room, sudden peak of 100+ db may damage ears while if one is already in noisy background, there is reflex contraction of a particular muscle in ears which protects ears apparatus of tympanic membrane and ossicles so that we can tolerate higher spl in noisy background.

Simple experiment: listen to your i pod with earphones while travelling in a train in general compartment while the train is going through the tunnel. Keep volume at easily audible level. Then listen to same thing at home with volume knob at same position. You wont be able tolerate it for long. In both cases, you are being exposed to same spl in your ears but background noise is different. So you can tolerate higher spl in train as compared to home.
Still it may cause damage.

While watching movies we usually sit in silent room with no background noise. So ears are not conditioned to tolerate sudden peaks in spl that occurs in many action movies.

 

[sumeshj]

My setup is (almost) same as the OP, and yes I also faced this same problem when I setup my HT. I think it has to do with the Denon-Wharfedale combination, and the fact that Wharfedales are power hungry speakers.

I changed two settings in the 1610 and now I get good dialogues and overall volume too. I set the input gain to +5dB (to increase overall volume) and center speaker level to +7dB. This solved the problem for me.

For people who want to buy this combination I would recommend the 1911 AVR with the Wharfedales as it has more power.

 

[avink]

Sorry but what am I missing here? I thought music is heard at 85 to 90dB with 100db having potential to damage your ears over a longer duration.

Even a whisper is at 20dB. So why is 0dB too loud?

--G0bble

I think we are mixing the two here. I am referring to the master volume control on my AVR that displays the reference level in db and not the db SPL that you are referring to. I found this nice explanation by Chris (Audyssey founder) that explains it well:

"Reference level is defined as the level used in film mixing. This is a standard used in all film mixing.

Reference is defined as 85 dB SPL (C-weighted, slow) at the listening position using 20 dBFS (FS= full scale) band limited pink noise (between 500-2000 Hz). Every studio and movie theater is calibrated this way and this provides the capability for 85 + 20 = 105 dB max.

This 85 dB noise is a little too scary for home users, so manufacturers provide a test signal that is 10 dB lower (30 dBFS) and so home theaters are calibrated to measure 75 dB SPL for that noise. The result is the same when the master volume is set to 0 (i.e. 30 dB above 75 dB = 105 dB max)."

 

[manoj.p]

1) I used my yam avr in stereo mode only. so There was no question of delay there.
When i increased the speaker distance in setting, the sound used to get louder.

2)there was a separate adjustment for delay if i remember correctly. So there is no question why speaker distance should affect delay when there is separate adjustment.

I do agree that my experience is with yam Avr only and not denon.

Just to clarify -

1. Yes, when you have only stereo setup and both speakers are same distance from listening position, then there are no delays. Not sure why you were getting the feeling of loudness. Well, only by SPL meter we can tell whether the receiver does actually increase the gain.

2. almost all receivers have two delay settings. first delay setting is for each speakers, to set the delays relative to each other for distance adjustment. The second delay applies to all the speakers at the same time. Many people have some other processor downstream of receiver, like a video processor etc. That processing introduces some delay in video chain. Sometimes, TV's, projector etc also introduces video delay. The second delay in the receiver allows you to introduce it for audio (for all speakers) and to make it in sync with the video. Many times, its not needed. But that option is provided by the receiver manufacturer.


@avink: Coming back to the original topic. Now you have got the idea about the reference level, see if listening to 0 db is comfortable or not. You already have ran the Audessey, so it has been set it at 75db. I personally listen to around 70db level most of the time. Also remember, an increase of 3db is twice as loud. Its a log scale. If you still have issues with hearing vocals, then do tell us about your setup, esp center speaker setup. a pic would also help.

 

[ShaQ.Blogs]

someone please answer my basic queries here. I had asked them previously somewhere but i didnt get answers.

These are basic questions. Did you try to google before you posted here? if you were looking for some particular speaker and prices then understandable as prices change in time...over night too.

1)On an AVR,Why volume is given in db? E.g. for yam it was -80 to +15db? I mean why it is not just volume 1 to 100?

Most receivers can display in both modes, Absolute (0-100) & Relative (-100dB to 0dB or, -80dB to +20dB). Do note unlike the typical HTIB systems, these systems in both cases is basically in dB. So if you have chooses absolute scale and if you increase from 65-75, it is an increase of 10dB in output. Similar for the relative scale. If you increase from -20dB to - 10dB it is an increase in outpur by 10dB.
The reason the relative scale is in negative is bcos, 0dB corresponds to reference level. A reference level basically refers to Dolby ref level which if i am correct is 105dB (This i believe is corresponding to when peaks occur, or 85dB average). Reference level basically means...well a receiver is after all an amplifier which amplifies the signal. While it amplifies a signal which is very low in signal strength, what most people dont know is that it also attenuates. But attenuation here has a different meaning. 0dB if it is calibrated properly it is same as the recording level. And any increase in volume is amplification from the reference level. Any decrease in volume is attenuation from the reference level. By how much, by 'that much' dB.

2) if i dial -25db,what does it exactly mean? I know that it does not mean sound pressure level of 25db. As i understand , sPL will vary depending on listening position & speaker sensitivity for the same -25db.

I presume you have never calibrated a system yet . It is average of the points being measured. It will never be the same at all measured points. This is why room acoustics is so important. It minimizes this uneven distribution of sound. Even an state of the art anechoic chamber has uneven sound distribution. It is well, impossible to get the same level at all positions, distances. They usually measure speaker SPL at a distance of 1m and so on.

So does this -25db correspond to 'X' SPL At 'Y' distance with 'N' on. of speakers of 'xx' sensitivity? If yes,what are these X ,Y, N & Z figures?

X is SPL, Y is distance, N is num of speakers. Z I have no clue as u didnt mention it
and...Good luck dissecting to this level hyeah:

This is my personal experience.: in a movie, the actors were talking in a silent room and so the volume was high to listen to dialogues and suddenly there was a blast scene. Both my kids who were sleeping in next room woke up and started crying. The incredibles was another such movie where the volume constantly goes up & down and thats highly dangerous.

It is you to blame as you increased the volume . So decrease it until you feel it is not dangerous, better yet watch a silent movie


edited:
A reference level basically refers to Dolby ref level which if i am correct is 105dB (This i believe is corresponding to when peaks occur, or 85dB average)
And by the way, all this funda of reference level goes of a toss as soon as you play a source which is recorded at a different level. Different recording levels are very common. This is why some cd's are louder than some others.

 

[ShaQ.Blogs]

I think we are mixing the two here. I am referring to the master volume control on my AVR that displays the reference level in db and not the db SPL that you are referring to. I found this nice explanation by Chris (Audyssey founder) that explains it well:

good links...thx