Legend Killers - Turntables

[reubensm]

Recently i had a really nice discussion with a fellow forum member and good friend around the NAD 3020 amplifier, often considered among the most significant components that shaped audio history. Our conversation drifted across domains, and into turntables and we started talking about pieces of technology that defined the history of turntables. There was the stereo LP, direct drive motor, great tonearm designs, the magnetic cartridge and then we arrived at something known as the "T-Bar". That actually brought back some memories from my childhood. Many years ago, I think sometime around 1981, my father took me to his friends place (I don't remember what it was for). Many of you may now this gentleman by now as he is quite popular with Turntable enthusiasts across India who want to have a stylus re-tip job done. Yes, Mr. Mony indeed. Now this was the time when Japanese turntables from the likes of Technics, Pioneer, JVC, Akai, Sony etc ruled the world in Kerala (via the middle east).

So while the 2 gentlemen were talking and discussing stuff, it was usual for Mr. Mony to play a LP through his home built amplifiers via his corner horn speakers or he would at times wire up some of the amplifiers that came in for repairs, for us to listen to (my Dad was also a customer of his, having bought an amplifier from him). While like any kid in a candy store, I used to enjoy watching all the fancy amplification gear play (most of them would have been without the top cover so it was fun to have a look inside) and admire those huge corner horns that he had. I almost never looked at the inconspicuous and boring looking turntable that he had, and only glanced in that direction actually when he would either flip over or change records.

Fast forward to the early 2000s, I was living in the US and while on a weekend visit to a friend's place, I came across this same turntable in use, belonging to his Dad. This was my introduction to the AR XA, and I found out later that it is one of the most significant turntables in history and one of the most popular too (just like the NAD 3020). In today's world, this turntable is almost forgotten but its worth while considering this one, if you can find one in good condition.

Edgar Villchur, the legendary audio designer, with the Acoustic Suspension philosophy for speakers came up with the idea of using a "T Bar" which served as the mount for the platter and tonearm, suspended from the main chassis. This isolated the 'business side' of the turntable from the plinth/mounting board and cabinet, thereby making the tunable absolutely pure-sounding. There are famous stores of crowds of commuters visiting the AR listening room at New York's Grand Central Station for a demo and during some instances, Edgar himself demonstrated the turntable playing flawless despite being hit with a hammer while working. This turntable was launched at a modest price of just under $60 in some markets and around $70 in others, at the time and became very popular. If you can find one in good nick, not a bad one to own. Here is Edgar himself speaking about the design and performance (his thoughts on the importance of the turntable as a source are also quite interesting).

Again Edgar was apparently the first to come up with the suspended chassis approach for belt drives however the controversy still rages on how a few years later, Thorens, Linn, etc came up with the same approach which they claimed to have developed independently.

The legendary AR XA turntable, a good choice over the likes of Thorens, Linn and others.



Note; these are random stock pictures for illustrative purposes only, hence cosmetic condition may vary

 

[reubensm]

Dream for many - Thorens TD 124 Mk2, if not available then the Mk1
Emotion of may of these aspirants - "Damn, that's way too expensive these days"
Compromise - "hey, lets check out the 301 and 401, gosh they're expensive too, ok then how about the L75, too much work, well vintage turntables are an enigma and a headache anyways, modern is better:"
The end result - "hey, Technics is launching these new 1200s, how about that?" (again just joking but a few actually made this comment to me)

Before going into the Thorens TD124, many of you know that this is not a idler drive turntable, neither is it a belt drive turntable, it is actually a combination of both, known as an belt-idler drive turntable. First of all, there is a misunderstanding about what TD stands for - many say it is Transcription Deck where as TD actually stands for Tourne Disque which in French simply means record player. It may be interesting to note that although Thorens was Swiss-based, their factory apparently was in a predominantly French speaking region and hence the use of French. Incidentally, the German term for turntable is Plattenspieler.

The TD124 from Thorens is considered the finest, if not one of the finest ever turntables with precision Swiss Engineering. The build quality was far superior to the other options available at the time, including the Garrards and was intended for professional as well as home audio use. The Thorens TD124 is nick-named the Rolls Royce of Turntables.

Yes the TD124 had a heavy platter and a less powerful motor when compared to the Garrards motors, but incorporated a special feature (the secret sauce of sorts) which helped it to transcend its peers at the time and many other turntable designs to follow. There were already quite a few idler wheel drives around at the time, all of which had quite high rumble (yes, even the Garrards) and other drive noises as well as less than perfect speed constancy and synchronization, which made pianos more often than not have an unintentionally varying pitch. The idea of coupling a rubber shaft directly to the motor and platter was therefore considered as a failed design-logic by the Thorens engineers.

Instead, they came up with a clever hybrid called the belt-idler drive. The motor, softly suspended, was connected to a step drive wheel by means of a short flat rubber belt. In order for the belt to run as precisely as possible, the surfaces of both were suitable curved. The four available speeds were selected by moving the idler wheel on the different stages of the drive wheel. The idler wheel had its own bearing, which was attached to the chassis and hence completely removed the vibrations of the motor and hence the nickname Rolls Royce.

If you can find/afford the TD124, there is nothing like it. However if you still want to enjoy the merits of the idler-belt design, there are some other options to choose from. All the mentioned Thorens models feature the same drive philosophy, however the decks themselves may differ when it comes to platter size/weight, top-plate design, bearing, motor in some cases, inbuilt tonearm (with auto-return or automatic functioning), etc (spec sheets for easy comparison are available online).

TD124 Mk1 (left) vs TD124 MK2 (right)




iron TD 124 Mk1 platter (left) vs non-magnetic TD 124 Mk2 platter (right)



Other models from Thorens with the same Belt-Idler drive philosophy:

TD 121 (the 124 with single speed)



TD 224 (record changer)



TD 134



TD 135 Mk1



TD 135 Mk2



TDK 101



TD 111


Note: Photographs are for illustration only, cosmetic condition may vary

(contd..)

 

[reubensm]

(contd.. from previous post)

TD 184



Telefunken Studio 220 (Similar to the TD 184 but with a better tonearm and perhaps better looking)



And.....

If you still cannot find one of the above, or they are exorbitantly priced, there is still an alternative, which is arguably close to the 124 itself. Here's introducing the Kenwood-Trio 400M, the hidden GEM

The Kenwood Trio 400M essentially has the same specs at the Thorens TD 124 but a bigger Motor and is bullet proof






The Kenwood-Trio PC 400U is essentially the very same 400M with an inbuilt high quality tonearm



Note: the photographs are for illustrative purposes only, cosmetic condition may vary

These Kenwood-Trio decks may be rare and are never talked about, but they are highly valued and usually sit quietly in turntable collections around the world (including mine). They come up once in a while on eBay

 

[RRR]

If you can find/afford the TD124, there is nothing like it.

Thanks for mentioning the TD 124.
And if you cannot find or afford the TD 124, but actually have it sitting in the cupboard at home and not able to find the right person to restore it....is there a way forward.
Any help or guidance would be appreciated.

 

[anilva]

Excellent thread Reuben. You are doing a great service to the analog community. Reading up all your posts with keen interest. I have many of the turntables you have mentioned above including a Dual 1019 and agree with your analysis.

Cheers

 

[reubensm]

Thanks for mentioning the TD 124.
And if you cannot find or afford the TD 124, but actually have it sitting in the cupboard at home and not able to find the right person to restore it....is there a way forward.
Any help or guidance would be appreciated.

I don't have experience with the 124 but have owned the 135. They are very easy to service and usually need nothing more than a new belt and general lubrication. The idler is usually long lasting. In some cases, the motor may need a strip-down look-up. Having said that, the service work/resto guys who we have around are mostly cleaning and lubing experts, and the result is usually on the lines of taking one's car for a water-wash. For example, i used to service my Garrards by myself until I came across the classic-hifi shop. They were able to prove to me that only precision servicing can bring these decks back to factory specs. They showed me a demo of how the idler assembly on old springs (that have lost their tension), can impact the rumble. If the objective is to get it to play, then simple service/resto work on the deck should suffice, but if you are looking for audiophile grade results, then professionals like this, are likely to do a better job

 

[jls001]

Thanks for mentioning the TD 124.
And if you cannot find or afford the TD 124, but actually have it sitting in the cupboard at home and not able to find the right person to restore it....is there a way forward.
Any help or guidance would be appreciated.

What "restoration" is needed? I own a Mk I. No major work was required except for a new idler wheel and belt to get it running. Years into the ownership I installed a spark suppressor capacitor in the on/off switch as it was missing.

 

[RRR]

I don't have experience with the 124 but have owned the 135. They are very easy to service and usually need nothing more than a new belt and general lubrication. The idler is usually long lasting. In some cases, the motor may need a strip-down look-up. Having said that, the service work/resto guys who we have around are mostly cleaning and lubing experts, and the result is usually on the lines of taking one's car for a water-wash. For example, i used to service my Garrards by myself until I came across the classic-hifi shop. They were able to prove to me that only precision servicing can bring these decks back to factory specs. They showed me a demo of how the idler assembly on old springs (that have lost their tension), can impact the rumble. If the objective is to get it to play, then simple service/resto work on the deck should suffice, but if you are looking for audiophile grade results, then professionals like this, are likely to do a better job

Like you rightly said...it came back as car wash the last time I gave it to someone as he was more interested in owning it rather than servicing it.
Thanks for your feedback.

What "restoration" is needed? I own a Mk I. No major work was required except for a new idler wheel and belt to get it running. Years into the ownership I installed a spark suppressor capacitor in the on/off switch as it was missing

Hi
Will get in touch with you. Thanks

 

[gangof4]

(contd.. from previous post)

TD 184

View attachment 63031View attachment 63032

Telefunken Studio 220 (Similar to the TD 184 but with a better tonearm and perhaps better looking)

View attachment 63039View attachment 63034

And.....

If you still cannot find one of the above, or they are exorbitantly priced, there is still an alternative, which is arguably close to the 124 itself. Here's introducing the Kenwood-Trio 400M, the hidden GEM

The Kenwood Trio 400M essentially has the same specs at the Thorens TD 124 but a bigger Motor and is bullet proof

View attachment 63042
View attachment 63040
View attachment 63046
View attachment 63041

The Kenwood-Trio PC 400U is essentially the very same 400M with an inbuilt high quality tonearm

View attachment 63043
View attachment 63044
Note: the photographs are for illustrative purposes only, cosmetic condition may vary

These Kenwood-Trio decks may be rare and are never talked about, but they are highly valued and usually sit quietly in turntable collections around the world (including mine). They come up once in a while on eBay

Kenwood-Trio 400M is indeed a gem. I saw it spin at a friend's place in Berlin in 2016. Worth looking out for.

 

[reubensm]

Receiving quite a few requests to write about Technics. Had taken some time as the topic is an extensive one. With the launch of the new SL1200s, there is a long queue of aspirants both from the existing Technics DD demography and even those who are users of other TTs and starters too. Before we go into the details, I thought I'll address some basic queries:

One of the first questions I always receive from Technics aspirants - which is better, servo or quartz controlled direct drive Technics decks?

Without going into too much of the technicalities, in simple terms a servo controlled direct drive motor circuit is based on voltages (or comparison of voltages) while a quartz controlled direct drive motor circuit is frequency based (comparison of frequencies).

What this essentially means is that in servo controlled motors, a dc voltage is provided to the motor's primary winding and the internal tachometer via the motor's complimentary windings, outputs a secondary voltage to the servo circuit, that is representative of the actual speed. These two voltages are compared against each other and the control system adjusts the motor control voltage to accommodate the difference and maintain steady speed.

The quartz controlled motor on the other hand, uses a crystal controlled quartz oscillator that is divided down to the frequency to control the motor speed. The internal tachometer reads the speed of the platter and outputs its own frequency that is representative of the actual speed. Both frequencies are compared and the control system adjusts itself until the two frequencies match and are in phase.

Which is better - both these direct drive philosophies are miles ahead of idler drive and belt drive turntables when it comes to speed accuracy. Servo controlled circuitry is usually based on voltage switching/comparison and hence is simpler to calibrate and service. Anything to do with oscillation and frequency generators is a lot harder to calibrate but honestly, these situations are very extreme and seldom encountered. So my verdict is, when it comes to Technics Direct Drive turntables, both are equally good from the end-user perspective. When choosing your Technics DD turntable, dont really worry about this aspect.

Some pictures for reference:

Techinics SL3200 Servo controlled deck PCB and motor windings. The main controller IC is under the aluminum heat sink.



Technics SL-Q3 Quartz controlled deck PCB and motor windings. It has an additional IC for the Quartz Clock



A Technics DD turntable motor essentially has 2 halves. The motor windings (both primary and complimentary windings) and the sensors are mounted on the PCB constituting the first half. The other half of the motor is mounted around the center spindle hold, on the under side of the platter. This essentially is the magnet and the split magnetic rings that trigger complimentary windings of the motor, via the sensors when the platter rotates.

The green blocks that surround the stator around the center spindle are the primary windings though which the volts for turning the motor, are applied. The little sensors (3 pairs around the inner ring, one of which is circled in red) are wired to the complimentary windings used for generating the comparison voltage or frequency depending on the drive type (servo or quartz)



The under side of the platter surrounding the spindle hold has an outer magnetic ring and an internal ring comprising small magnetic strips with small gaps (circled in red). These trigger the sensors on the inner side of the half which is mounted on the PCB.



More to follow in subsequent posts.....

 

[reubensm]

a better picture illustrating the under side of a typical Technics DD turntable platter

 

[reubensm]

My next post on Technics is related to one of the most ignored or forgotten aspects - The Platter Mat

When buying a Technics Turntable always look out for its original platter mat (like in the picture above). The SL1200 is famously sold especially in the used market, without a platter mat as various slip mats are used with these turntables by DJs. Some clever sellers remove the OEM platter mat and replace it with a cork mat or generic rubber mat. Before going into the reason, using different materials for platter mats are widely talked about and appreciated. However when used with Technics turntables, the OEM technics rubber mat functions essentially as part of the platter. Here are some observations when using custom mats with a Technics turntable (note - opinions may vary and its down to personal choice)

Felt - should be avoided in my opinion, attracts dust, static electricity on record surface that comes in contact with it, although felt is soft, felt mats are generally very thin and lack dampening capabilities which also impact its ability to counter stylus vibration
Leather - poor at dampening and resonance control, low control over stylus vibration
Cork - looks nice on a turntable but is said to have low control over stylus vibration, i found it to be very powdery and dirties my records
Acrylic, glass - good overall but is hard and usually thicker, requires tonearm calibration, may slip. Weight of glass increases strain on motor

In my opinion, always ensure that you use an OEM technics oil dampened rubber mat with your Technics turntable. I have found their dampening to be far superior to regular rubber mats and they almost are like a seamless part of the platter with superb grip. There is a little tip on how to identify if a Technics rubber mat is OEM. Over a period of time, the platter mat tends to 'leak' oil. If you lift up the mat and observe the platter carefully, you may notice oil stains if the platter is recently cleaned or you may notice the oily patches themselves, around the platter center hole. Just ensure that you keep the platter and the platter mat clean. Ensure that the platter mat does not crack.

Oil stains caused by an OEM Technics rubber platter mat

 

[General_sound]

Reubensm, the above posts by u are a treat for ancient vinyl lovers. I have owned, and still own, the very inexpensive Philips (₹275/-. + taxes in 1972), Garrard 2025 T and others. They still work, albeit rumbling-ly, but the sound is still good from the ceramic carts! The Dual,1019 a true classic, is as u said ,a pain to calibrate! Am still struggling with the auto shut off mechanism, which frustrates a lot of owners of this fine sounding tt!
On another note, the tt which ex US President, Barack Obama, was listening to, the Denon DP 300f is a surprisingly decent tt, notwithstanding reports of speed variation on some examples. Being automatic it is convenient for many people and changing the stock cart benefits the sound.
Thanks

 

[ajeshkumarts]

My next post on Technics is related to one of the most ignored or forgotten aspects - The Platter Mat

Hi Reubensm,

There are two variety of SL 1200 platter mats available
1. SFTG172-01 / RGS0010 - around 6 mm thickness and weigh approximately 470 grams
2. RGS0008 - around 3mm thickness and weigh approximately 270 Grams

which one is better?

 

[reubensm]

Thanks for your query, I before I write down my opinion, I would like to mention that I am not a critical listener who can tell difference between styli, interconnects, power cables, etc. My view has always been to focus on what sounds best to my ears and as a result I usually don't pay much attention to lab reports, audiophile reviews, brand reputations, etc. Hence my answer may not be the ideal one but I strongly believe that when it comes to audio, there is no right or wrong with regard to interpretation of performance

Choice of platter mat is a personal choice, just as the choice of cartridge. First some basics, why do we need a platter mat in the first place? Remember the old times, gramophones with a heavy cast iron platter used to have a simple felt mat. In most cases over time with heavy use, these felt mats often wore off and folks would end up playing their 78s on the cast iron platter, and it all worked out. With the advent of amplified sound using pick-up cartridges tracking at lighter weights, the increased sensitivity and tracking criticalities resulted in a lot of noise being picked up and amplified. Metallic platters created ringing sounds with the music, feedback from the speakers and mechanical noise from the deck started becoming an issue. Also microgroove records need to be cared for and protected from physical damage and static electricity generated as a result of contact with the platter needed to be kept to a minimum if not eliminated completely, to prevent dust accumulation and noise due to static. Apart from all this, there is the stylus vibration factor, additional vibration created noise. Finally, the record should engage properly with the platter to prevent slipping, that can cause speed variations or fluctuations.

Keeping these factors in mind, we can sum up that a turntable mat ideally takes care of the following:

• A turntable mat must decouple or dampen the record from mechanical vibrations entering it via the turntable. This includes bearing noise, transmitted motor noise through the drive system and cartridge feedback.
• Additionally, a turntable mat must absorb and transmit resonance out of the record itself. This is because a stylus vibrating in a record groove sets the vinyl resonating in a way that will feed back into the stylus if it is not highly controlled. If so, this will cause a blurring of the signal and overlay other parts to the point that they will not be heard. A good turntable mat can go a long way in eliminating these problems
• Your turntable mat must transmit the drive to the record without elasticity or slip. The surface that the record sits on responds very slightly to the amount of drag on the record. A momentary elastic movement backwards is enough to slightly deaden the impact of a bass note drum strike. In a worst-case scenario, it will cause the record to slip backwards, in this case you will hear wow occurring
• Lastly, the application of the turntable is very important. Where have you positioned your turntable in relation to your speakers, the room size and how much you turn the volume control up (and the tone controls as well). How you like your music to sound also matters (increased dampening results in slight or marginal loss of brightness, which is a bit subjective though).

One more aspect one should also take into consideration is the platter of Technics direct drive turntables and the prescribed OEM mat that comes with each deck (refer to the original service manual for the exact mat part number). The platter of the 1200/1210 has additional rubber dampening below the platter itself unlike the regular Technics DD models. Here is an example. Note the additional rubber dampening layer over the underside of the SL1200/1210 platter.



The OEM platter mat that comes with the SL1200/1210 MK2 is SFTG172-01 while the standard Technics DD models come with the SFTG320-01 mat. We must keep in mind that the 12s are intended for DJ use on a DJ desk which is usually in very close proximity to the pounding speaker arrays where as other standard Technics DD turntables are meant for home listening. Now it is easy to correlate the additional dampening and thicker mat for the SL1200/1210. Many DJs remove the OEM platter mat completely and replace it with a slip mat but when they encounter odd DJ booth setups were feedback becomes a problem, they usually play with the slip mat over the OEM thick rubber mat. Of course with all these changes, they have to keep an eye on the tonearm height calibration.

So even if your 1200 is for home use, the OEM mat will work well with its greater dampening. However if you want to experiment a bit, trying out the thinner Technics OEM one would be an option. You will need to factor the size of your room, equipment placement, levels at which you play your amp, etc if you want to take a critical view, as dampening will be less with the thinner one. My SL1210 came with a non-standard cork mat, which I have replaced with the original OEM Technics mat. I have always believed in the philosophy of manufacturer specs as I like my gear to sound how the manufacturer intended it to sound

Hope I've answered your query to some extent. These are aspects that are not written about in manufacturer literature or reviews as the approach is usually to use their OEM setup which is already lab tested and meets the desired expectations. If we want to try something different, it is up to us to experiment and choose what sounds good to our ears

 

[ajeshkumarts]

So even if your 1200 is for home use, the OEM mat will work well with its greater dampening. However if you want to experiment a bit, trying out the thinner Technics OEM one would be an option. You will need to factor the size of your room, equipment placement, levels at which you play your amp, etc if you want to take a critical view, as dampening will be less with the thinner one. My SL1210 came with a non-standard cork mat, which I have replaced with the original OEM Technics mat. I have always believed in the philosophy of manufacturer specs as I like my gear to sound how the manufacturer intended it to sound

Hope I've answered your query to some extent. These are aspects that are not written about in manufacturer literature or reviews as the approach is usually to use their OEM setup which is already lab tested and meets the desired expectations. If we want to try something different, it is up to us to experiment and choose what sounds good to our ears

Thanks Reubensm for responding in detail. As usual you explained various factors and considerations beautifully . Appreciate it a lot.

 

[reubensm]

Had taken a break due to some work commitments and will be coming up soon with a Technics post. Meanwhile, in the interim I had been receiving numerous WhatsApp messages for turntable recommendations. To sum up, most of them in some form, were asking about upgrading from pure belt drive rigs. Even though the topic of speed accuracy and its importance in sound reproduction almost never came up, I did factor it in my recommendations. From my experience, with cassette decks, reel decks and turntables, I have always found pure belts driven decks to have certain limitations with the ability to maintain speed accuracy, over a period of time, depending on the location (and climatic condition) where you plan to use the deck.. Hence I have always recommended direct drive over pure belt drive decks. In all these cases, I strongly recommended the SL1200/1210 over these pure belt decks.

Here is an examples, the Linn Sondek LP12 (pure belt drive legend) vs the SL1200 (direct driver legend). Listen carefully to the pitch and accuracy of the presentation (ignore the sound quality as the Linn recording is a live, microphone based recording vs the Technics recording which is via a line feed and digitized version). To me the LP12 sounds like a drag while the SL1200 sounds like precision.

The track is the same on both clips - Madonna's Papa Don't Preach

LP12

SL1200

 

[Lizard King]

Talking about legends, every wondered what turntable the President Obama used at the White House?

Take a look at his setup at the White House - simplistic!

View attachment 62624

The whole video can be viewed here.

It was "just" a Denon DP- 300F, fully automatic. Not Presidential stuff really

And of course, people panned him for sloppy speaker placement

Check out President Obama's turntable in the White House

An unprecedented look at the official White House sound system. Never thought you'd see Barack Obama's turntable? Now's your chance.

thevinylfactory.com

 

[Bloom@83]

Had taken a break due to some work commitments and will be coming up soon with a Technics post. Meanwhile, in the interim I had been receiving numerous WhatsApp messages for turntable recommendations. To sum up, most of them in some form, were asking about upgrading from pure belt drive rigs. Even though the topic of speed accuracy and its importance in sound reproduction almost never came up, I did factor it in my recommendations. From my experience, with cassette decks, reel decks and turntables, I have always found pure belts driven decks to have certain limitations with the ability to maintain speed accuracy, over a period of time, depending on the location (and climatic condition) where you plan to use the deck.. Hence I have always recommended direct drive over pure belt drive decks. In all these cases, I strongly recommended the SL1200/1210 over these pure belt decks.

The 1200 series are so ubiquitous in Japan that even barbershops have one, I heard. For 20k INR corresponding value one can get a near mint 1200mk2 there today. Owing to the hype , these sell for highly inflated prices in India.

 

[reubensm]

The 1200 series are so ubiquitous in Japan that even barbershops have one, I heard. For 20k INR corresponding value one can get a near mint 1200mk2 there today. Owing to the hype , these sell for highly inflated prices in India.

its true, and even easier still, you can get write-off DJ decks for little of nothing, especially in the European and Far east market. If you are clever with DIY stuff, these can be refurbished with new OEM spare parts and made to work like new decks. However given the renewed interest in these SL12s, even spares cost more these days. A brand new OEM drop in tonearm for a SL1200 Mk2, costs as much as a SME 3009 (used but in good condition)