My earthing is screwed

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
We have a good electricity network in Abu Dhabi. A separate transformer for nearly each building and my complex has 6 transformers, a complete earthing done to British standard. Still the N-E voltage is 1-2 V. Have two Bosch / Siemens machines at home a WM and a dishwasher. No pcb conked off all these years.

Have a IFB at my apartment in India. It's pcb conked off and that service guy was trying to con me to get a some kind of device to protect the machine from supply variation that he said was the cause for the fault. It was like 2.5k INR in 2011. I challenged him to prove the supply variation and he couldn't as there is a separate trafo for the building tapped from 11kV. He ran away after doing his job.
Technicians mostly try to put the blame on power supply for any faults
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
I got a 5kv isolation transformer from vertex and the N-E V now is 0V from the output side of the isolation transformer. It is still fluctuating between 10-50V and EB proves to be useless so next course of action is to go the legal way. Huge thanks to all Fm’s who helped and a special mention to @Otpidus @mbhangui @Subbu68 for spending so much time and making me revise my syllabus in EEE hahaha :) Thanks to @Kannan for lending me his isolation transformer to test which gave me the confidence to invest in an isolation transformer.
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
I got a 5kv isolation transformer from vertex and the N-E V now is 0V from the output side of the isolation transformer. It is still fluctuating between 10-50V and EB proves to be useless so next course of action is to go the legal way. Huge thanks to all Fm’s who helped and a special mention to @Otpidus @mbhangui @Subbu68 for spending so much time and making me revise my syllabus in EEE hahaha :) Thanks to @Kannan for lending me his isolation transformer to test which gave me the confidence to invest in an isolation transformer.
As I wrote earlier first step in legal way is through the Regulatory Commission. No need to pay lawyers at this point.
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
Past three days I observed the N-E V and it’s between 0-3v. Sometimes I noticed it being 0-0.5v which is impossible based on my observations for the past 4 months. Only once or twice it went to 10-14v but just for a brief second and immediately came down to 1v. So I went near the transformer to check if any changes where made. Based on the images EB seemed to have grounded the RYB line. Please find the 3 images. Highlighted arrow marks are the new changes. You can see In the first image Red, Yellow and blue wires connected to the RYB phase in the output side of the transformer. In the second and 3rd image you can see it’s been grounded. Dam it if only they have listened and did this in the first place. I had to spend around 30k to prove its not ground fault. Also I had to sit and revise my electronics basic and still they didn’t respond or acknowledge it’s a fault even after me explaining I am a BE EEE graduate and I understand the basics very well. Just don’t understand how a normal person with no electrical knowledge can deal with these people. I pressured my locality EB through another locality AE contact. Only cause of this pressure they worked but they where not honest. They lied first that they have rectified the fault and without any one knowledge they have come and earthed the RYB. Now if I raise any complaints or go legal they will lie that immediately when I complained that they have rectified the fault by earthing the RYB line.
 

Attachments

  • 5A0EC9DA-E8FC-402A-8CC3-832CB1EB8BE6.jpeg
    5A0EC9DA-E8FC-402A-8CC3-832CB1EB8BE6.jpeg
    271.3 KB · Views: 25
  • 867DB0ED-BFF5-4766-A3BC-3DEDC6EB65A4.jpeg
    867DB0ED-BFF5-4766-A3BC-3DEDC6EB65A4.jpeg
    370.2 KB · Views: 25
  • D19974A1-4096-408E-8618-B254EDFA2886.jpeg
    D19974A1-4096-408E-8618-B254EDFA2886.jpeg
    310.7 KB · Views: 25
Last edited:

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
Past three days I observed the N-E V and it’s between 0-3v. Sometimes I noticed it being 0-0.5v which is impossible based on my observations for the past 4 months. Only once or twice it went to 10-14v but just for a brief second and immediately came down to 1v. So I went near the transformer to check if any changes where made. Based on the images EB seemed to have grounded the RYB line. Please find the 3 images. Highlighted arrow marks are the new changes. You can see In the first image Red, Yellow and blue wires connected to the RYB phase in the output side of the transformer. In the second and 3rd image you can see it’s been grounded. Dam it if only they have listened and did this in the first place. I had to spend around 30k to prove its not ground fault. Also I had to sit and revise my electronics basic and still they didn’t respond or acknowledge it’s a fault even after me explaining I am a BE EEE graduate and I understand the basics very well. Just don’t understand how a normal person with no electrical knowledge can deal with these people. I pressured my locality EB through another locality AE contact. Only cause of this pressure they worked but they where not honest. They lied first that they have rectified the fault and without any one knowledge they have come and earthed the RYB. Now if I raise any complaints or go legal they will lie that immediately when I complained that they have rectified the fault by earthing the RYB line.
They cannot ground RYB - it will be what we power engineers call a bolted fault. The fuse will blow or if it's a breaker it will trip. If these don't act, the worst case the transformer will blow up.

The star point of the secondary windings of the transformer is grounded to form the neutral for you not the phases R, Y and B.

It is a feeder tapped and taken underground through a cable. What you see in black is a power cable. Inside there will be 4 cores - R, Y, B and Blk that they split and connect to the power lines.

They might have in that course of work corrected the phase that was having the high impedance fault that I suspected.
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
They cannot ground RYB - it will be what we power engineers call a bolted fault. The fuse will blow or if it's a breaker it will trip. If these don't act, the worst case the transformer will blow up.

The star point of the secondary windings of the transformer is grounded to form the neutral for you not the phases R, Y and B.

It is a feeder tapped and taken underground through a cable. What you see in black is a power cable. Inside there will be 4 cores - R, Y, B and Blk that they split and connect to the power lines.

They might have in that course of work corrected the phase that was having the high impedance fault that I suspected.
Totally clueless on what they did and when they did it. Just that there is a change. They have done it secretly without any one’s knowledge. Clear indication they want to cover their ignorance. In the open all I can see is a yellow, blue and red wire connected to each phase respectively and it’s covered with black and grounded. Your explanation clears what must have been done to rectify the fault. Thanks again
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
Totally clueless on what they did and when they did it. Just that there is a change. They have done it secretly without any one’s knowledge. Clear indication they want to cover their ignorance. In the open all I can see is a yellow, blue and red wire connected to each phase respectively and it’s covered with black and grounded. Your explanation clears what must have been done to rectify the fault. Thanks again
The picture should clear your doubt about what you saw. It's a 6 sq.mm aluminium, PVC insulated, armoured, power cable.

The outer black is the overall sheath, then armour made of steel wires for mechanical protection, inner black sheath or maybe tape, the four aluminium cores R,Y,B for phases and Blk for Neutral.

It may be also without armour if protected by pipes etc.



6-sq-mm-4-core-aluminium-armoured-cable-500x500.jpg
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
The picture should clear your doubt about what you saw. It's a 6 sq.mm aluminium, PVC insulated, armoured, power cable.

The outer black is the overall sheath, then armour made of steel wires for mechanical protection, inner black sheath or maybe tape, the four aluminium cores R,Y,B for phases and Blk for Neutral.

It may be also without armour if protected by pipes etc.



View attachment 69301
Thanks and that explains clearly what they must have done. Hope they have done it properly and there are no other issues. Last night voltage readings L-N was 267. During day time it’s 237-250v.
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
Thanks and that explains clearly what they must have done. Hope they have done it properly and there are no other issues. Last night voltage readings L-N was 267. During day time it’s 237-250v.
Wow!!
267V is at the upper limit. 240V is your nominal voltage.

Since you have a stablilizer it's safe. Still it's good to add a MOV ( over voltage protector) at the input. Not very expensive. Any spike would be bypassed. Even a regular neon lamp would help. It will get damaged but your equipment will be safe.
 

mbhangui

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
1,075
Points
113
Location
Pune
Wow!!
267V is at the upper limit. 240V is your nominal voltage.

Since you have a stablilizer it's safe. Still it's good to add a MOV ( over voltage protector) at the input. Not very expensive. Any spike would be bypassed. Even a regular neon lamp would help. It will get damaged but your equipment will be safe.
+1 for Using MOV. Using MOV is a must. If you have the belkin power strips, they have MOV inside. In 2012, all my equipment got saved. The MOVs blew off shorting and blowing the main fuse. I just lost few tubelights which were directly connected to the mains.
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
+1 for Using MOV. Using MOV is a must. If you have the belkin power strips, they have MOV inside. In 2012, all my equipment got saved. The MOVs blew off shorting and blowing the main fuse. I just lost few tubelights which were directly connected to the mains.
You said what I wanted to explain and with real experience.

We have a very stable supply here so never thought of Belkin. I work for the regulator of Abu Dhabi and we take things seriously.
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
Wow!!
267V is at the upper limit. 240V is your nominal voltage.

Since you have a stablilizer it's safe. Still it's good to add a MOV ( over voltage protector) at the input. Not very expensive. Any spike would be bypassed. Even a regular neon lamp would help. It will get damaged but your equipment will be safe.
I don’t have any voltage stabilizer now. Using a MX power strip along with isolation transformer. Yeah 267 is very high and I watched a 2 hours movie in high voltage.
+1 for Using MOV. Using MOV is a must. If you have the belkin power strips, they have MOV inside. In 2012, all my equipment got saved. The MOVs blew off shorting and blowing the main fuse. I just lost few tubelights which were directly connected to the mains.
I have it but not using it now. One dealer suggested I use MX which is better then belkin

MX 6 Universal Socket Surge Protector 16 Amp with Child Safety Shutter and Switch, 2 Port USB Charger (2.1A) with LED Indicator, Spike Suppressor MOV with Power Cord -1.5 mtr https://www.amazon.in/dp/B08SW7276T/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_9QV46XBRAB7KVSWPFTNM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
I don’t have any voltage stabilizer now. Using a MX power strip along with isolation transformer. Yeah 267 is very high and I watched a 2 hours movie in high voltage.

I have it but not using it now. One dealer suggested I use MX which is better then belkin

MX 6 Universal Socket Surge Protector 16 Amp with Child Safety Shutter and Switch, 2 Port USB Charger (2.1A) with LED Indicator, Spike Suppressor MOV with Power Cord -1.5 mtr https://www.amazon.in/dp/B08SW7276T/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_9QV46XBRAB7KVSWPFTNM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
I checked the specification of this MX 6 socket. It does not specify the surge protection level expressed as Joules. The higher the better. MX does not indicate if it is a 3 line surge protection.

Belkin 8 way BSV804af2M says it is 900 Joules and 3 line protection.

3 line means it protects surges on L, N or E wires and Belkin specifies the protection level for their models.

Not sure why the dealer said it is better than Belkin.
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
I checked the specification of this MX 6 socket. It does not specify the surge protection level expressed as Joules. The higher the better. MX does not indicate if it is a 3 line surge protection.

Belkin 8 way BSV804af2M says it is 900 Joules and 3 line protection.

3 line means it protects surges on L, N or E wires and Belkin specifies the protection level for their models.

Not sure why the dealer said it is better than Belkin.
Yes but as per your suggestion it does come with MOV and fuse. I will get a proper distribution board with power conditioning later on
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
Yes but as per your suggestion it does come with MOV and fuse. I will get a proper distribution board with power conditioning later on
MOV rating decides the level of protection it offers. That device is rated in voltage level and energy it can expend. The more the better.

It is recommended to have around 1000 joule MOV for sensitive equipment. Cheaper the board lower the MOV rating
 

Subbu68

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
212
Points
63
Location
ABU DHABI, UAE
MOV rating decides the level of protection it offers. That device is rated in voltage level and energy it can expend. The more the better.

It is recommended to have around 1000 joule MOV for sensitive equipment. Cheaper the board lower the MOV rating
Fuse will protect only from short circuits. Primarily intended for the power strip...again the fuse rating has to be coordinated with the equipment fuse or the power strip fuse will blow for a short in your amp or other equipment.

Power system protection is an art and very, very complex - maybe some audiophile here will eat me if i said much more complex than designing an amp.
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
MOV rating decides the level of protection it offers. That device is rated in voltage level and energy it can expend. The more the better.

It is recommended to have around 1000 joule MOV for sensitive equipment. Cheaper the board lower the MOV rating
OK but the MX strip is twice the cost of belkin. I hope it is a decent strip.
Power system protection is an art and very, very complex - maybe some audiophile here will eat me if i said much more complex than designing an amp.
True indeed.Learnt so much with the issues i have faced over the past 4 months.
 

stefan

Active Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
133
Points
28
Location
Goa
Just something I've noted over the years, MX products are cheap Chinese imports (not the good stuff) you can see many of their products on AliExpress.

On another note, I don't really understand chemical earthing or the way it's done here, when I worked in new construction (both domestic and commercial) the electricians would just hammer in earth spikes to the ground (if i recall, they were steel) and clamp the earthing wire, we didn't have separate phases either to residential properties, commercial had 3 phase 440v for many items with seperate control/switch boxes, but then the regular 220~250v was a ring main system which is different to what we use here. A little shock really ****ing hurts due to higher amperage without load.
 

Love4sound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
4,390
Points
113
Location
Chennai
Just something I've noted over the years, MX products are cheap Chinese imports (not the good stuff) you can see many of their products on AliExpress.

On another note, I don't really understand chemical earthing or the way it's done here, when I worked in new construction (both domestic and commercial) the electricians would just hammer in earth spikes to the ground (if i recall, they were steel) and clamp the earthing wire, we didn't have separate phases either to residential properties, commercial had 3 phase 440v for many items with seperate control/switch boxes, but then the regular 220~250v was a ring main system which is different to what we use here. A little shock really ****ing hurts due to higher amperage without load.
As far as i know MX is made in india product. Chemical earthing is done using a galvanized electrode and chemical compound.I did it recently. 10 feet hole was dug and a 10 feet rod was put inside the hole filled with chemical compound.
 
Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers in Red Mahogany finish at a Special Offer Price. BUY now before the price increase.
Top