need advice on surrounds

Wharfedale EVO4.4 Speaker

spirovious

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Hi friends,

Today I booked cetre for my Tannoy F1(14k) at Alliance4,Mumbai.

So now my setup will be -
Onida DVDp, Onkyo HT-S580, Tanny Frt & Centre(FC custom)
Now I will need your advice on surr spk with true effect.

Surr are are mainly 2 types-
1.Sat/BS
2.Bipolers

My Hall is "L" shaped with D-table at one side.So wall behind me is wider/lengthier than Front(behind dysplay).

1.So which option will be better? Bipole or small BS/sat?
2.Which will give good effect?
3.Tany surr r very coatly(13k),wharf WH-2 available for 6500.So which brand can be close to Tanny?

Pls.compare BS & Bipolers from my point of need & your experiences too.

Thanks.
 
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prakasse

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Hi friends,

Today I booked cetre for my Tannoy F1(14k) at Alliance4,Mumbai.

So now my setup will be -
Onida DVDp, Onkyo HT-S580, Tanny Frt & Centre(FC custom)
Now I will need your advice on surr spk with true effect.

Surr are are mainly 2 types-
1.Sat/BS
2.Bipolers

My Hall is "L" shaped with D-table at one side.So wall behind me is wider/lengthier than Front(behind dysplay).

1.So which option will be better? Bipole or small BS/sat?
2.Which will give good effect?
3.Tany surr r very coatly(13k),wharf WH-2 available for 6500.So which brand can be close to Tanny?

Pls.compare BS & Bipolers from my point of need & your experiences too.

Thanks.

I would suggest you go for bipole as that will cover your hall better. Wahrfedale 9.DFS is around 12k. You can try that.

I believe WH-2 is Value for money at 6K as this covers frequency of 80hz-24khz where as 9.DFS covers 70hz-20khz. It is selling at low cost as it is a discontinued model. but how does it matter? try auditioning and see if you need to put in extra 6k for the surround.

One more advice i would suggest is that you place the surrounds on the side wall just 1 to 2 feet above your listening position(relative to ears). I see many people put the surrounds high on the wall and it just spoils the sound.

Thanks,
Prakash
 

spirovious

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I would suggest you go for bipole as that will cover your hall better. Wahrfedale 9.DFS is around 12k. You can try that.

I believe WH-2 is Value for money at 6K as this covers frequency of 80hz-24khz where as 9.DFS covers 70hz-20khz. It is selling at low cost as it is a discontinued model. but how does it matter? try auditioning and see if you need to put in extra 6k for the surround.

One more advice i would suggest is that you place the surrounds on the side wall just 1 to 2 feet above your listening position(relative to ears). I see many people put the surrounds high on the wall and it just spoils the sound.

Thanks,
Prakash

Thanks,

I m planning to put it on Back wall as left surr wall is almost double the distance of Rt surr.So as per your suggestion things may not work.Currently I have placed Lt surr at same distance as Rt.

As they are bipoler,they can be placed on backwall,isnt it?
Secondly treble Q of wharf is less sharp as that of Tany.

So what will be the best option?
 

prakasse

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In general, bipole speakers are a good choice for movies and is suggested to be placed on the side walls.

Yes, Wharfedale won't have that high frequency roar(painful to ears ;)).

Can you specify your budget. Based on that we will try to suggest some other options which can suit your taste.

Thanks,
Prakash.
 

spirovious

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In general, bipole speakers are a good choice for movies and is suggested to be placed on the side walls.

Yes, Wharfedale won't have that high frequency roar(painful to ears ;)).

Can you specify your budget. Based on that we will try to suggest some other options which can suit your taste.

Thanks,
Prakash.

Thanks,

My budget can be 7 to 10k as surr r not so imp(works for lesser time in mov)
Tany surr r 14k, any other brand?

Its not neccessary to be dipole.I asked for wharf diamond 9 surr,but not available seperately.
 

marsilians

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Thanks,

I m planning to put it on Back wall as left surr wall is almost double the distance of Rt surr.So as per your suggestion things may not work.Currently I have placed Lt surr at same distance as Rt.

As they are bipoler,they can be placed on backwall,isnt it?
Secondly treble Q of wharf is less sharp as that of Tany.

So what will be the best option?

Bipole design is much older than Dolby Digital 5.1 recommendations. They are supposed to be placed to the sides of the listener to get the best effect as they have the diffusing sound wave pattern. Rear walls tend to fire side away from the fronts and your experience may not be the same.

My suggestion if you are going with rear placemnet is to use 2 bookshelves for the best effects.
 

prakasse

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Since you would be placing the speakers on the behind walls you can go for booskshelves.

Morduant Avant 902i are award winners around(10.5k) covering frequency range of 55hz to 24khz with 89db. They are bit forward compared to wharfedale and can suit your taste.

The other suggestion will be to Audition cambridge S 30 with sensitivity of 90db covering frequency of 55hz-20Khz for 7K :).

They don't sell wharfedale surrounds separate??

Others in your price range are diamond 8.1, diamond 9.0

Thanks,
Prakash
 
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venkatcr

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Spirovious, most of the advise given by Prakasse and Marsilians are correct. Just keep the following in mind:

1. Surrounds are never kept behind the viewer. They are always kept on the sides of the viewers position usually between 2 to 3 feet above your ears in your sitting position.

2. Bipolars are always kept on the side, NEVER behind. Only the Surround REAR / BACK are placed behind the viewer. These are the additional two channels in a 7.1 set up, and can be small bookshelves. As I have mentioned elsewhere, there is not much data going to these speakers.

3, Generally I would recommend that your surround speakers be the same brand as your front and center. This is needed for what is called timbre matching. If budget is constraint, look for speakers nearest to that brand in terms of size and specifications.

4. In general, Bipolars perform better that bookshelves for surround duty. This is because they radiate the sound in about 100 odd degrees enveloping you in sound. Unless bookshelves are pointed directly at your ears, there is a possibility that you may miss some subtle sounds.

5. One of the reasons for placing the surrounds above your head is to give you what Yamaha calls the 'presence' effect. When objects that are above the actors head make a sound, you will hear them from above your head. Next time you visit a good cinema hall, look for surround speakers there. They will be always be way above your head.

Cheers
 

spirovious

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Thanks for posts,

Mordaunt & other BS suggested are deeper,so difficult to mount.
Rt surr is hardly 4ft apart.So mounting bigger BS will reduce the distance to 1 ft(close to listening position)Surr will affect.

I am looking for BS with depth of 4 to 5in & compatable to Tany.
Hence I kept open option of Bipolar too.

Hi Venkat,you have suggested both options,1st BS & 2nd Bipolar.
So to get good surr for 'L' shaped room,which will be better?
 
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ajinkya

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1. Surrounds are never kept behind the viewer. They are always kept on the sides of the viewers position usually between 2 to 3 feet above your ears in your sitting position.

Venkat,

This is not strictly true. Depending on listener preference, there is a small range of positions behind the listener where you can place the surrounds. Dolby has a diagram here for 5.1 speaker layout:
Dolby - Dolby Speaker Setup Guide - Speaker Placement

I think the same goes for bipolars (which are different from dipolars which DO have to be kept only at sides since they create a null field in between the two speakers). Someone can correct me if I'm mixing up bipolar and dipolar definitions.

-Jinx.
 

spirovious

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Venkat,

This is not strictly true. Depending on listener preference, there is a small range of positions behind the listener where you can place the surrounds. Dolby has a diagram here for 5.1 speaker layout:
Dolby - Dolby Speaker Setup Guide - Speaker Placement

I think the same goes for bipolars (which are different from dipolars which DO have to be kept only at sides since they create a null field in between the two speakers). Someone can correct me if I'm mixing up bipolar and dipolar definitions.

-Jinx.

Like somewhat I read somewhere which says Bipolars,in phase can be placed on rear wall away from listener.
I have one more idea-
If I place one side of Bipolars facing me @ 90 to 110 angle & other facing otherside,will it give a perfect surr as I will use Bipolar as BS & other side will spread surr effect?
 

venkatcr

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Venkat, This is not strictly true. Depending on listener preference, there is a small range of positions behind the listener where you can place the surrounds. Dolby has a diagram here for 5.1 speaker layout:
Dolby - Dolby Speaker Setup Guide - Speaker Placement

If you look at the website for 5.1 placement, he talks about placing the RS and LS at 90 degrees to 110 degrees radius all to the side of the viewer. What I have seen many people doing and many dealers recommending is the placement of the RS and LS BEHIND the viewer at more that 180 degrees, or directly perpendicular to the R and L speakers. This is wrong. These positions are occupied by the LB and RB speakers in a 7.1 set up, and not by the surround in a 5.1 set up. If you look at the diagrams on the manual of any AVR this is what they recommend.

If you are using a bipolar, it makes more sense to keep it directly in line with your ear as it has a wider dispersion angle.

The Dolby recommendations works for an ideal room where you can place the speakers where you want, and the room is acoustically treated. In real life, you have to struggle with parallel walls and untreated rooms.

In a set up I just installed for a friend, I had to place the Surround speakers at an acute 140 degree angle BEHIND the viewer for a 5.1 set up. He had already done the interiors and had drawn the cable routing. I spent two days trying various placement positions (the room was empty and I had free access), using cardboard boxes as speaker stands. I found that somewhere to the side of the viewer was the best position for surrounds.

But unfortunately, for aesthetics, I finally had to place the speakers behind the viewer. I had to adjust the speaker distance and the relative speaker amplitude to get the best surround effect, but even then the effects were wrong. For example, if there is a car driving from the left of the screen to the right, the sound starts from behind you on the left and moves across the screen to behind you on the right. It should actually start from your left and move to your right. The only time this is useful is when the actors are facing away from the screen and there is some action behind them. Then the sound should come from behind you. Most of the time, the actors are facing you so the sound effect is always to your sides and to your front, and sometimes above you for aerial effects. The advantage of bipolars is that they effectively handle the sound that is supposed to come from behind you, while a bookshelf will struggle to do that.

Of course if you install a 7.1 this is moire effective. But again there is very few sound that is coded for 7.1

I would recommend (particularly for Spiro) that you try a few positions and watch the same movie again to see which position provides the best sound for a 5.1 set up. You can use speaker stands if you have, or a tall cardboard box that you can move.

Another strange thing I have seen and that is something I do not understand. This has been emphasised more after seeing the Dolby site. When you use a stereo set up, the front speaker are always toed in to provide a stereophonic effect. But most instruction booklets and most dealers I have seen, keep the front speakers straight for an HT set up. I can understand this if you have a large seating area and 10 or more people watching a movie. But for small groups of two to four people, I think it makes more sense o toe in the front speakers. The Dolby site actually shows the front speaker toed in for a three seater position.

Cheers
 

spirovious

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Thanks,I took audition of wharf 9 HCP with surr on back 1 ft apart,but it did the job(90%).I cld hear car moving from behind(Lt to Rt)
 

ajinkya

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What I have seen many people doing and many dealers recommending is the placement of the RS and LS BEHIND the viewer at more that 180 degrees, or directly perpendicular to the R and L speakers. This is wrong.

keep the front speakers straight for an HT set up. I can understand this if you have a large seating area and 10 or more people watching a movie.
Cheers

Venkat,

Ok now I understand what you mean when you said 'behind' i.e directly behind the viewer. And you're right -surround speakers are not meant to be directly behind the listener.

I think the reason you don't see toe-in all the time is because the advantages of toe-in depend very much on the speaker's off-axis directionality characteristics. In other words, some speaker manufacturers actually create their speakers to be positioned straight on (I think a Dali series had this property) and they recommend the same to the customers. I do not think this is a stereo vrs HT configuration issue.
If the speakers are very directional on-axis (Energy Take system is one) then it is best to toe-in at the sweet spot.

-Jinx.
 

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While we are on the topic of surrounds - I have been contemplating this for a while now. How is the idea of listening to radio purely on surrounds mounted high like 8ft up on the walls? Anyways radio music is highly compressed dynamically and there is no audiophile satisfaction to be obtained.

I think it will be quite enjoyable, but I haven't actually heard it so I need to ask - will it create a discordant listening experience? I'm thinking like a 2 watt DIY valve amp + surrounds as main speakers to pair with worldspace carnatic channel ...

Regards
 

manu4panjab

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i have just made a research on google and i found dipoles are place on sides and bipole are place on rears,venkat sir you said bipoles are on sides please check this link Polk Audio - Technology Article and also if we use bipoles and they are on behind so should we connect them to surrounds terminals or surround back terminals
 
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