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Need input on 42/46/47" LCD or Plasma TV

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saumitra

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This is kind of a repeat post. I had posted the original queries in the "intro" sections:
http://www.hifivision.com/introductions/7302-new-member-looking-inputs-lcd-tvs.html
And got a few useful inputs as well (thanks to those members who have given their inputs). However, I would surely like to get more inputs.
Just to reiterate what I am looking for:
1. I live in Bangalore. I am planning to buy a new HD TV - LCD or Plasma - 60-90 k budget, sometime during last week of Dec 2009/ 1st week of Jan 2010. It has to have wall-mount option.
2. Since the viewing distance is 10 ft (min) to 15 ft (max), I would prefer a 46"/ 47" TV, but can settle for a 42" as well if the features/PQ and vaule-for-money quotients are really great.
3. The new TV is primarily going to be used for - 60%: TV broadcasts - DTH (TataSky), 30%: watching movies (mostly Sony DVD player - AZ7D - for DVDs/ HDDs ; also PS3, which I am planning to buy soon, for Blu-Rays), 10%: playing games (PS3)
4. I consider "value for money", "quality/performance of the product" & "quality of service" as the 3 most important factors to decide for or against a product.
5. I have had a horrible experience with Samsung sevice when my existing TV's (32" Samsung LA32R71B) panel died. For that reason alone, I am more inclined towards other brands (LG, Sony, Panasonic).
6. I like the USB connectivity feature (that many current LCD/LED-backlid LCD models are offering) as it allows me plugin my flash drives and the HDD (where I have stored many movies and music) and play movies/music/photos directly. But this alone will not influence my selection as I can always use my portable DVD player (with USB) & connect it to the TV.
7. Since I watch good amount of action movies (& cricket/tennis), I would consider higher picture refresh rate (100 Hz or higher) as an important factor.

So far, while looking for alternatives to Samsung, I had considered the below LG models:
LG JAZZ LH60 42"
LG LH50 47"
LG Scarlet LH70 47"
LG LH90 42"/ 47"

I was personally very impressed with LH90 model - in terms of picture quality (I had compared it with Samsung's LED TV UA40B6000VR and found it to be as good if not better) and obviously the price (~70 k for the 42" model). I was about to finalize and buy the LH90 (42") model for about 70k, but postponed my buying decision mainly becuase most of the major stores didn't have any stock of this - one or two stores had just one piece left. More importantly, salesmen from most of those stores told me things line - "this model is a flop, LG has stopped production of this", "this is not really a LED backlit TV", "LG has got very poor feedback on this, so they have withdrawn this model, they will soon launch an upgraded version" etc. etc.

Now, do you guys know why such a "value for money" (that's what was my 1st impression after revieweing this model in one of the exclusive LG schowrooms) LED backlit model is not available in the market (with most dealers/showrooms) within 2 months after its launch? And does this model really have any major issue that made LG to withdraw this model and relaunch (if there is any truth in that story)? Or, Is it just that they don't have enought parts/panels for this in stock to produce/supply enough?

On a similar note - how would you compare the JAZZ and Srcarlet and LH50 models against the LH90?

Also, I am open to suggestions/recommendations on any other good models from Sony, Panasonic (or even Samsung) - both LCDs and Plasmas. My personal experiance, while going around showrooms in Bangalore is that very few people promote Plasmas in their stores. I was not at all impressed with the Panasonic exclusive showroom in Koramangala where they had shown me only two Plasma models - only one of them was a full HD model. I also visited some Sony exclusive showroom - checked out some of W/V /X series models - liked the X series but found it to be too expensive.
 
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BLASTO

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I was personally very impressed with LH90 model - in terms of picture quality (I had compared it with Samsung's LED TV UA40B6000VR and found it to be as good if not better) and obviously the price (~70 k for the 42" model). I was about to finalize and buy the LH90 (42") model for about 70k, but postponed my buying decision mainly becuase most of the major stores didn't have any stock of this - one or two stores had just one piece left. More importantly, salesmen from most of those stores told me things line - "this model is a flop, LG has stopped production of this", "this is not really a LED backlit TV", "LG has got very poor feedback on this, so they have withdrawn this model, they will soon launch an upgraded version" etc. etc.
You can see my review here..
http://www.hifivision.com/television/6564-led-tv-war-42lh90qr-lg-vs-ua40b6000-samsung.html

It has excellent PQ no doubt. But the reliability cannot be judged with the demo.
LG might have stopped production of this because of the impending LH95 model release. It is a LED backlit TV but does not look like one. It is fatter. The uninformed salesman would have bluttered nonsense on looking at the size. The fact still holds. LG is giong to launch an upgraded version the LH95. But it will not come in 42".
Another thing to consider is, the 47" version is only 10k more. It is more VFM.
I recommend you visit the LG exclusive showroom. They should be having this is stock or can give you the exact reason why it is not available and a timeling on when it will be available.

On a similar note - how would you compare the JAZZ and Srcarlet and LH50 models against the LH90?
Not up to the mark. Amoung these scarlet is the best in picture and Jazz is the best in sound. LH50 scores well in looks and falls inbetween scarlet and Jazz in PQ.

Some of my friends got the Jazz LH60 and are happy.


Note: Plasmas look crappy in brightly lit showrooms or alongside LCDs. They shine in home environment. If you know anyone owning any plasmas, Please go and have a look.
 

ajaybiz

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Visit Modern world at old airport road have a demo of all brands and decide yourself i am sure you'll drop the idea of LG ;)
 

adder

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well i am not sure whats the bad experience u had with samsung service,but if a tv panel be it a lcd or plasma from any manufacturer goes kaput after warranty,then expect to pay a heavy price ,mostly as much as 60% of the tv price or even more then a brand new model.

anyway at ur viewing distance u can consider a 46/47" tv.
the LG LH90 is good,but the other models are nothing special just average.
u can also have a look at the samsung 46B550A and Sony KLV-46V550A.
 

psychotropic

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let me repeat, since you've ruled out samsung, a Panasonic plasma is probably what you need! and Panasonic is definitely supporting their plasmas much more than Samsung. LG I have no views on since I haven't seen them.
 

gopscreative

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LH90 wil be available by dec end and it fulfills all ur requirements .LH95 wil be more dan 1lak for sure and comes in 55inch as stated by many websites ,But LG is planning to release a 47 inch one in US.I am using 42LH90(got it for 65k) and its one of the good performing LED LCD TV:clapping:.
 

illusion_heart

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One of my observations on LH 90 was that while discussing with salesmen from different shops was that they first mentioned that it was a thicker TV and hence most of the consumers compared it to normal LCDs and not on basis of technilogy (Backlit). This is also one of the reasons why the feedback would have gone to LG that people want slim TV and they should relook at LH90.

Technologywise its a very superior products in comparison with offeringsfrom Sony & Samsung and IMHO is absolute VFM in both 42" & 47" sizes....
 

saumitra

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All the Samsung fans - I don't disagree that Samsung products, especially LCD TVs are among the best, which is why I own a TV and also a washing machine and a microwave - all from Samsung. However, when my LCD TV's panel died, I had a real bad experience.
I bought this Samsung TV 3 years back for 87k. In September this this year I started having problem - there was a scratch in one corner of the panel and around that area there were horizontal lines blcoking picture. This ares started getting larger and larger and I filed a complain with the service center. They promptly sent a service engineer who diagnosed that the panel was gone and told me though it would cost good amount, I can ask for a panel replacement. I spoke to the service guys a day later and asked them to give me details about the cost of the new panel. The head/manager of the LCD TV service (Mr. Gopal) called me few days later and told me that this particular panel was not in stock and it may take a long time to get that. He then told me that since Samsung was not able to do the immediate replacement for the faulty panel, he could work out a buy-back offer for me - I have to buy another Samsung LCD TV and pay the difference price. He also said I would be getting somewhere around 40% of the bill amount for my current TV. I thought it was a real good offer and confirmed that I would like to go for that. The guy then asked me to wait for a week so that he can send a report/recommendadtion on this and get approval from his bosses. I kept waiting and that guy kept telling me that he had sent his report and was waiting for an approval from his head office & that he would close the deal in the next one week. After waiting for about a month, I blasted that service manager one day and demanded that I be allowed to talk to his boss to get a clear picture on what was happening. That guy reluctantly gave me (after keeping me waiting for another one week) his manager's no. That guy, Mr. Chandrasekhar, happened to be the in-charge of the Samsung service center in Bangalore. When I told him about the entire thing, he promised that he would get this sorted out within two day's time. After two days when I called him again, he gave a new story - according to him, this panel being a old one, was not there in their database anymore and so they couldn't event generate a report for replacement. This annoyed me even more as the other guy (Gopal) had been telling me he had already submitted his report etc. and was only waiting for the approval from the head office. However, Chandrasekhar assured me that he would get the database updated in a day and then submit a report and also mentioned that he would surely get the buy-back offer approved within a week. After a week, when I called him, he said he had got the approval and I now needed to select one or more models based on which he would initiate the buy-back process. I prompty zeroed on some models (including LA46B650) but had to settle for LA46B550 as that was the one available in stock. Chandrasekhar asked for 2-3 days to arrange for the delivery. After 3 days I called him to check status and this time he told me - "Sorry sir, our head office has not approved the buy-back offer that we recommended ...". Controlling my anger (note that in the previous conversation, he told me he had already got the approval for the buy-back offer), I asked him why this was rejected and he plainly said - "Actually sir, that panel which you wanted to replace is soon going to arrive, so my head office asked me to get your faulty panel replaced and close your service request". I was furious .... After a day, the same old Gopal called me to say that the panel stock had arrived and it would cost me about 25k to get the replacement done.
So guys, especially those big Samsung fans - you should now figure out why I am not very fond of Samsung any more. I would have no problem or complain if the service guys had plainly told me that - it would cost me about 25k for getting the panel replaced and that I may have to wait for 2-3 months to get that, instead of fabrcating many stories and even going to the extent of finalizing a (non-existent) buy-back offer for my old TV, only to buy time from me till they get the stock of that panel. I consider this no less than plain cheating. More so because this was done by two of the senior most guys from Samsung service center in Bangalore.
And regarding the PQ of Samsung LCDs vs. competitiors, going by what I have read in various mags (Digit, G&G, T3), Samsung's LAxxB5xx series are inferior than its own LAxxA5xx/ LAxxB6xx series and some of its competitors' models (LG's Jazz/Scarlett are rated much higher by all these mags). And the funny thing is this (LAxxB5xx) is the only Samsung model/series that is now available in the market (other than the brilliant looking but over-hyped and over-priced UAxxB6xxx LED series); most dealers would flatly tell you that the B6xx models are not in stock and not expected anytime soon. So if you want to reamain a loyal Samsung customer, you would have to buy an older and inferior model even though a later model is already launched in India.
3 years back when I was scanning the market for 32" LCD TVs, I still remember - LG's models were costlier (by 4-5k) than Samsung's, probably because LG was doing marginally better as a brand in India. And see the prices today .... There is absolutely nothing wrong in charging a brand premium (like Honda does for cars in India), but if a brand's selling/marketing strategies are like that of Samsung or its service team is so unethical again like Samsung's (especially in Bangalore) - it is difficult to remain loyal to that brand.
 

adder

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well in the case of todays flat panels tvs for eg lcd tvs the panel tech is improved quite a bit from the 06 or 07 model that u have,getting those old panels does take time its not only the case here in india its also in other countries like the US.
at 25k for a panels based on old tech,u can actually buy a newer one for a few thousand more.i mean a samsung 32B450A costs about 26k in ebay.

but this year models are only inferior to the old ones in terms of sound quality.but all tvs from all manfactures including sony are cheaper this year then last year with some cost cutting measures in terms of component quality,although the lcd panels prices have gone down and backlight prices have gone down.
now i don't know about what digit magazines said
infact these days digit,chip,tech2 ,av max post lots of bull information,mostly giving their subjective opinion like AV max for eg thought the LED tvs from samsung is a new technology.
the image processing ,contrast have all been improved such that the gap b/w samsung and sony as narrowed quite a lot.
their is no way that the older A5xx,A6xx is better then the newer B5xx,B6xx.

about the B650A non availability,i guess samsung is trying to push LED lcds,its no suprise they have higher profit margins in LED lcds.

anyway go with what ur eyes feel is the best.
 

illusion_heart

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All the Samsung fans - I don't disagree that Samsung products, especially LCD TVs are among the best, which is why I own a TV and also a washing machine and a microwave - all from Samsung. However, when my LCD TV's panel died, I had a real bad experience.
I bought this Samsung TV 3 years back for 87k. In September this this year I started having problem - there was a scratch in one corner of the panel and around that area there were horizontal lines blcoking picture. This ares started getting larger and larger and I filed a complain with the service center. They promptly sent a service engineer who diagnosed that the panel was gone and told me though it would cost good amount, I can ask for a panel replacement. I spoke to the service guys a day later and asked them to give me details about the cost of the new panel. The head/manager of the LCD TV service (Mr. Gopal) called me few days later and told me that this particular panel was not in stock and it may take a long time to get that. He then told me that since Samsung was not able to do the immediate replacement for the faulty panel, he could work out a buy-back offer for me - I have to buy another Samsung LCD TV and pay the difference price. He also said I would be getting somewhere around 40% of the bill amount for my current TV. I thought it was a real good offer and confirmed that I would like to go for that. The guy then asked me to wait for a week so that he can send a report/recommendadtion on this and get approval from his bosses. I kept waiting and that guy kept telling me that he had sent his report and was waiting for an approval from his head office & that he would close the deal in the next one week. After waiting for about a month, I blasted that service manager one day and demanded that I be allowed to talk to his boss to get a clear picture on what was happening. That guy reluctantly gave me (after keeping me waiting for another one week) his manager's no. That guy, Mr. Chandrasekhar, happened to be the in-charge of the Samsung service center in Bangalore. When I told him about the entire thing, he promised that he would get this sorted out within two day's time. After two days when I called him again, he gave a new story - according to him, this panel being a old one, was not there in their database anymore and so they couldn't event generate a report for replacement. This annoyed me even more as the other guy (Gopal) had been telling me he had already submitted his report etc. and was only waiting for the approval from the head office. However, Chandrasekhar assured me that he would get the database updated in a day and then submit a report and also mentioned that he would surely get the buy-back offer approved within a week. After a week, when I called him, he said he had got the approval and I now needed to select one or more models based on which he would initiate the buy-back process. I prompty zeroed on some models (including LA46B650) but had to settle for LA46B550 as that was the one available in stock. Chandrasekhar asked for 2-3 days to arrange for the delivery. After 3 days I called him to check status and this time he told me - "Sorry sir, our head office has not approved the buy-back offer that we recommended ...". Controlling my anger (note that in the previous conversation, he told me he had already got the approval for the buy-back offer), I asked him why this was rejected and he plainly said - "Actually sir, that panel which you wanted to replace is soon going to arrive, so my head office asked me to get your faulty panel replaced and close your service request". I was furious .... After a day, the same old Gopal called me to say that the panel stock had arrived and it would cost me about 25k to get the replacement done.
So guys, especially those big Samsung fans - you should now figure out why I am not very fond of Samsung any more. I would have no problem or complain if the service guys had plainly told me that - it would cost me about 25k for getting the panel replaced and that I may have to wait for 2-3 months to get that, instead of fabrcating many stories and even going to the extent of finalizing a (non-existent) buy-back offer for my old TV, only to buy time from me till they get the stock of that panel. I consider this no less than plain cheating. More so because this was done by two of the senior most guys from Samsung service center in Bangalore.
And regarding the PQ of Samsung LCDs vs. competitiors, going by what I have read in various mags (Digit, G&G, T3), Samsung's LAxxB5xx series are inferior than its own LAxxA5xx/ LAxxB6xx series and some of its competitors' models (LG's Jazz/Scarlett are rated much higher by all these mags). And the funny thing is this (LAxxB5xx) is the only Samsung model/series that is now available in the market (other than the brilliant looking but over-hyped and over-priced UAxxB6xxx LED series); most dealers would flatly tell you that the B6xx models are not in stock and not expected anytime soon. So if you want to reamain a loyal Samsung customer, you would have to buy an older and inferior model even though a later model is already launched in India.
3 years back when I was scanning the market for 32" LCD TVs, I still remember - LG's models were costlier (by 4-5k) than Samsung's, probably because LG was doing marginally better as a brand in India. And see the prices today .... There is absolutely nothing wrong in charging a brand premium (like Honda does for cars in India), but if a brand's selling/marketing strategies are like that of Samsung or its service team is so unethical again like Samsung's (especially in Bangalore) - it is difficult to remain loyal to that brand.
Almost similar kind of experience from Sony...hence no Sony or Samsung for me in future...
 

illusion_heart

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Messages
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well in the case of todays flat panels tvs for eg lcd tvs the panel tech is improved quite a bit from the 06 or 07 model that u have,getting those old panels does take time its not only the case here in india its also in other countries like the US.
at 25k for a panels based on old tech,u can actually buy a newer one for a few thousand more.i mean a samsung 32B450A costs about 26k in ebay.

but this year models are only inferior to the old ones in terms of sound quality.but all tvs from all manfactures including sony are cheaper this year then last year with some cost cutting measures in terms of component quality,although the lcd panels prices have gone down and backlight prices have gone down.
now i don't know about what digit magazines said
infact these days digit,chip,tech2 ,av max post lots of bull information,mostly giving their subjective opinion like AV max for eg thought the LED tvs from samsung is a new technology.
the image processing ,contrast have all been improved such that the gap b/w samsung and sony as narrowed quite a lot.
their is no way that the older A5xx,A6xx is better then the newer B5xx,B6xx.

about the B650A non availability,i guess samsung is trying to push LED lcds,its no suprise they have higher profit margins in LED lcds.

anyway go with what ur eyes feel is the best.
IMHO its a plasma as they are the best for our eyes currently...the kind of contrast ratios the LCDs are operating is increasingly becoming difficult to watch in a dark room...
 

Sumain

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Hi,

I urge you to just take a look at the 50" Panasonic V10.

This is a "to-die-for" TV, with unsurpassed looks and performance.

Some recent reviews have found this to be one of the best TVs available, now that the Pioneer Kuro series is about to go out of production.

All the best in your search

Cheers
 

Gfreeman

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Messages
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Location
bangalore
Hi,

I urge you to just take a look at the 50" Panasonic V10.

This is a "to-die-for" TV, with unsurpassed looks and performance.

Some recent reviews have found this to be one of the best TVs available, now that the Pioneer Kuro series is about to go out of production.

All the best in your search

Cheers
If we are patient enough we might just get our hands on Panasonic plasmas incorporating Pioneer's Kuro patents next year. But whether it is possible to implement all of Pioneer's technologies and how far Panasonic is willing to implement them is yet to be seen. We might get hints on what's in store for next year in the upcoming CES exhibition in January.
 

adder

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IMHO its a plasma as they are the best for our eyes currently...the kind of contrast ratios the LCDs are operating is increasingly becoming difficult to watch in a dark room...
actually more the contrast the better,contrast as nothing to do with dark room or bright room.
but in a dark room u can at any time lower the backlight,lcds with light sensor can adjust the backlight well below the setting 0.
its however may be a issue in tvs that don't have a backlight control like panasonic and philips lcd.

some prefer lcds for their eyes,since some are very sensitive to flickering,many don't like the peak brightness of plasma,where if only small portion of whites are displayed the brightness is really high and when large portion of whites are displayed the brightness goes to around 1/3rd the peak brightness.
like the below image top is a plasma bottom is lcd,notice the menu and the guys shirt they are bright in the plasma,which causes eye strain for many,the image of the lcd is more easy on the eyes


now u try to lower the brightness in a plasma to lower the peak brightness but when u have lots of white or when more then 35% of screen area is showing white, the plasma will start to dim .when 100% of screen is showing white ,it will be really dim about 1/3rd the brightness when the whites shown was at 35% or below.

so now u try to jack up the brigtness to make the tv bright,now what will happen is that when only small portion of whites is displayed it will be really bright.
so it all comes down to tvs circuitry which detects the amount of whites or bright images is shown,which in turn controls the ABL or automatic brightness limiter which is present in all plasma to limit the brightness ,otherwise the plasma can show those really bright whites at full screen after which it will be die or even explode,the power supply will be dead and ur MCB will trip or blown fuse.

ABL is also used to control the power consumption of plasma,if it has to meet the new energy efficiency norms.because as the amount of whites displayed increases the power consumption increases.

again it varies from plasma to plasma.some manufactures may limit their plasma brightness to a certain point,i.e such way that the brightness will remain constant irrespective of the amount of whites being shown,but the only way they do that is making their set to look really dim.
 
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illusion_heart

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Hi,

I urge you to just take a look at the 50" Panasonic V10.

This is a "to-die-for" TV, with unsurpassed looks and performance.

Some recent reviews have found this to be one of the best TVs available, now that the Pioneer Kuro series is about to go out of production.

All the best in your search

Cheers
I doubleback this claim and completely agree........
 

illusion_heart

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If we are patient enough we might just get our hands on Panasonic plasmas incorporating Pioneer's Kuro patents next year. But whether it is possible to implement all of Pioneer's technologies and how far Panasonic is willing to implement them is yet to be seen. We might get hints on what's in store for next year in the upcoming CES exhibition in January.
Exactly.....things for panny plasmas are only gonna get better hereon. V10 is the current benchmark, imagine getting even the black levels of Kuro for a slight price increase in the upcoming panny models in April 2010....Kuros even today are not in the affordable or VFM range.
 

Gfreeman

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actually more the contrast the better,contrast as nothing to do with dark room or bright room.
but in a dark room u can at any time lower the backlight,lcds with light sensor can adjust the backlight well below the setting 0.
its however may be a issue in tvs that don't have a backlight control like panasonic and philips lcd.

some prefer lcds for their eyes,since some are very sensitive to flickering,many don't like the peak brightness of plasma,where if only small portion of whites are displayed the brightness is really high and when large portion of whites are displayed the brightness goes to around 1/3rd the peak brightness.
like the below image top is a plasma bottom is lcd,notice the menu and the guys shirt they are bright in the plasma,which causes eye strain for many,the image of the lcd is more easy on the eyes

.
I think both TVs are still far too bright for a dark room and don't seem calibrated for use in a dark room at all. Calibrated plasmas will still look good. I would personally still prefer the pictures of the V10 as depicted by an owner at one of the forums.
 

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adder

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I think both TVs are still far too bright for a dark room and don't seem calibrated for use in a dark room at all. Calibrated plasmas will still look good. I would personally still prefer the pictures of the V10 as depicted by an owner at one of the forums.
they both are calibrated by chad b.well in a dark room u can lower the brightness or backlight further at user discretion but at the cost of some Shadow details additionally in the case of plasma may become even dimmer when majority of the screen is showing white.
 
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saumitra

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Thanks for the inputs you all have given so far.
To "adder" - as I mentioned while narrating my experience with Samsung service, I was not pissed off because of the delay in getting the panel (for replacement), I was upset with the false promise they made only to buy time - in effect it took them more than 2 months to give me a quote for the panel replacement while they created stories after stories. You seem to have missed that point completely while trying to 'defend' Samsung.
And you are right, I wrongly mentioned about LAxxA5xx to be better than LAxxB5xx, I actually meant LAxxB6xx to be better than LAxxB5xx and was upset with the fact that Samsung dealers were not keeping any stock of that model and was forcing prospective buyers to consider only LAxxB5xx or the UAxxB6xxx models.

Now coming back to the inputs, here is my summary:
1. For a large screen (>42"), plasma is a better option. Pana V10 seems to be one of the best choice.
2. LG's LH90 (especially 47") looks like a great VFM model, but one can't be 100% sure about its reliability and currently it is difficult to get one in showrooms.
3. Sony W series models are also good ones to consider.
4. Modern World (Airport road) and Reliance Digital (Cunnigham road) are good places to look out for all the good LCD/Plasma models.

Personally, although I agree with #1 and will surely check out the V10 series, I may not buy this or any other Panasonic plasma, becuase:
a) I think it is beyond my budget (I think it is > 1.1 L), though I am actually willing to stretch it for a really superior model.
b) The power consumption (530 W) is a problem. I live in a apt complex with DG backup, but the backup is limited (500 W) and power-cuts do happen in Bangalore/our area. Having a TV that would consume more than 500 W all by istelf means I would not be able to watch anything on it when I am running on DG power. Even the 42" G10 model of Panasonic needs 445 W to run. In comparison, I think most 42/47" LCD TVs would run on < 200 W, which suits me very well.

I will anyway wait till the new year before I finalize anything, but for now I think my choices are:
LG's LH90 47" - if it is available Or LG's LH95 42" - if it is within my budget and is available by 1st week of Jan
Sony W series 46" or X series 40" - if budget permits - Need inputs on the price and specific models to look for, if any of you know
Samsung's LA46B650/ UA46B6000VR - if budget permits - Need inputs on the price
Or, if none of the above clicks, settle for - LG's Jazz 42" or Scarlet 47" 0r LH50 47". Can anyone tell me if Scarlet is really a better model than LH50?
 
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