New speakers break in process...

[rsud]

This is the argument for burn in. It seems reasonable to me. I encounter pro-burn-in stuff everywhere, all the time. have even read about studio engineers playing hours of white noise through new monitors. Reasonable, commonly believed, commonly practised: doesn't automatically make stuff true. On the other hand...

Still, personally, I say that burn in seems absurd for cables, unlikely for electronics --- and perfectly possible for speakers and phono cartridges!

Duhhh... I dunno!

On your point here specifically, "...seems absurd for cables, unlikely for electronics" really means you don't have the quality of an audio system or the environment to be able to discern these difference thru listening. Can these differences be measured on a good quality (high-end) audio system? I believe so but it depends on who is doing and evaluating the measurement results and the quality of equipment doing the measurements. Far too often on these boards are people just espousing other peoples opinions.

In one of the most laughable cases I read, someone bought Kimber Kables on ebay at a low price. Was oblivious that he had bought fakes (they were from hong kong, duh) and declared after listening that kimber kables didn't sound any better.

This useless debate only ends when an individual is invested in listening. If one listens to a decent high-end system (entry level is fine) for extended periods of time so you have acclimated to the sound and spends time listening to the timbre of individual instruments. THEN a change in electronics or cables becomes much more obvious. So do effects of warm up.

 

[manoj.p]

I agree with Thad. Cable burning is the one of the most absurd thing I have read about. It's simple current, resistance and inductance. But people do put saffron color on a stone and pretend its a god. Make a wish infront of it, and when its granted, make huge offerings and soon enough the temple is highly acclaimed/reviewed/experienced institute. It's perfectly fine to have a belief, its per individual. But that stone is still a stone with saffron color on it. Same thing can be said about any other religions and their symbols and audiophile beliefs too. By the way, nothing against any religion, including audiophilery.

Some of the Pro gear already come burnt in. Like JBL runs and tests their studio monitors + pro gears for 100 hrs at factory. If one wants to do it at home, best way is to face both the speakers each other with very minimum gap between them. The drivers will be almost facing and touching each other. Wire one speaker out of phase with the other. Now, feed a mono signal at moderate to little loud volume to these speakers. You will not be able to hear much sound because speakers are out of phase and you can break-in these quite good. Be careful, not hearing sound makes people somewhat adventurous and can overdrive speakers damaging those.

 

[rsud]

I agree with Thad. Cable burning is the one of the most absurd thing I have read about. It's simple current, resistance and inductance...... <deleted>

So, have you actually experimented with this on a system that would be considered high-end?
Forget break in, as this is a very subtle effect and takes experience, time, and a decent high-end audio system to hear, how about differences in different brands and implementations of cables?

The view that for a cable its "simple current, resistance and inductance" shows typical pedestrian knowledge of what is going on in a cable. It is the predominant view, I'll grant that. Simple change to shielding outside the cable can have great measureable effects. So how is it "simple current, resistance and inductance" when something outside the metal of the cable can have an effect?

If the quality and realism of music reproduction from your audio system is important to you I suggest you spend some time listening to high-end audio systems. Careful listening and training your ears to listen to the timbre of individual instruments and then doing swaps of cables will blow your mind. Once you've done this you can then head down the path of learning to listen for cable (and electronics) break in.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

My mind is too blown already.

It may be a touch theoretical, but I tend to favour the view that if cables make a difference (which it is acknowledged that they can) then there is something wrong with them, or with the equipment they are attached to. And yet the words "high-end" and "resolving" are always battered about like missiles. It suggests to me that some people are spending vast amounts of money on fundamentally faulty gear.

Just my theory.

The other thing is that if a person wants to change the sound of their system, there are boxes that do that. There is no need to attempt some cable-based equalisation, because of ...equalisers.

The answer is, of course, that an extra box is not wanted, that it may degrade the sound, that the signal path should be short. So where's the objection to "degrading" the signal with random cable swaps?

All this warming up and cooling down was a simple matter when we had tone controls, but audiophiles rejected them. They rejected something simple, understood and reliable, for something mystical and of never-ending expense.

An equaliser is, of course, considerably more expensive than tone controls, and may be more expensive than one cable --- but if "high-end, resolving, etc" are the orders of the day, there is a very good chance that it won't be, and an bigger chance that will not cheaper than several. (No, wait... mine's free: I do it in software.)

With an equaliser one can do something really useful. Show me the cable that can restore the swish of cymbals to my aging, 8k-roll-off hearing. Show me the cable that can do that and take a little of the boom out of my bad listening position. (Yes, I know, room treatment and positioning is the real way of dealing with the latter problem.)

I do understand that people make, or feel that they make, subtle differences to their systems with cables, but it is not a club that appeals to me: I'll make my subtle, and not so subtle, changes in other ways. I don't intend to join.

Just my path of learning.

 

[manoj.p]

So, have you actually experimented with this on a system that would be considered high-end?
Forget break in, as this is a very subtle effect and takes experience, time, and a decent high-end audio system to hear, how about differences in different brands and implementations of cables?

The view that for a cable its "simple current, resistance and inductance" shows typical pedestrian knowledge of what is going on in a cable. It is the predominant view, I'll grant that. Simple change to shielding outside the cable can have great measureable effects. So how is it "simple current, resistance and inductance" when something outside the metal of the cable can have an effect?

If the quality and realism of music reproduction from your audio system is important to you I suggest you spend some time listening to high-end audio systems. Careful listening and training your ears to listen to the timbre of individual instruments and then doing swaps of cables will blow your mind. Once you've done this you can then head down the path of learning to listen for cable (and electronics) break in.

I am willing to spend time and train my ears. Let's start.

Can you please define high end for me? Does that mean expensive gear, exotic cables? Or rather what does high end means? What equipment? How about setup? Should the room be treated/non-treated? How much treatment? I want to do it right, because so far, I don't hear the difference between cables, leave alone burn-in in the cable. Can you please guide me?

As for listening to different setups, yes, I have listened to some ranging few hundred dollar/speaker to 5 digit per speaker. But I have hard time understanding what "high end" system means. Have to find out what it sounds like.

 

[Rockfella]

OP don't overthink. Just use speakers as is.. so called burn in will happen lol.

 

[captrajesh]

Some listen; some others listen too. I think there lies the difference.

 

[anirbandd]

When people start enjoying the music all these technicalities fly out of the window.

Just my 2 paisas.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Don't worry... we do that too



~

 

[manoj.p]

Don't worry... we do that too



~

+ 1.

+ we love arguing eveything about what we love.
In this case, it happens to be audio.

 

[rsud]

I am willing to spend time and train my ears. Let's start.

Can you please define high end for me? Does that mean expensive gear, exotic cables? Or rather what does high end means? What equipment? How about setup? Should the room be treated/non-treated? How much treatment? I want to do it right, because so far, I don't hear the difference between cables, leave alone burn-in in the cable. Can you please guide me?

As for listening to different setups, yes, I have listened to some ranging few hundred dollar/speaker to 5 digit per speaker. But I have hard time understanding what "high end" system means. Have to find out what it sounds like.

I appreciate the interest and I'll fill in what I can from my experience.

First, for training your ears careful listening to live unamplified instruments and voice whenever you can is the greatest help. There is a lot of detail that we can hear but without attention is taken for granted and unnoticed. As an example, listening live to a cymbal being hit by a drumstick, with attention, you can hear all kinds of detailed resonances as the metal is struck. Most people are unconscious of the level of detail that could be perceived through hearing because, I feel, we are so visually orientated. But with attention to what we are hearing we can develop our ability to hear details and discern nuance. It is no different, I believe, than practicing 3 point shots in basketball and finding that with practice you improve, as one example of lots of things that you can get better at with practice and attention.

The realm of audiophiledom I follow revels to hear this live level of detail for all instruments and voice when reproduced by their audio system because this detail brings out more of the sounds of the instruments and the artistry of the musicians and brings on that live magic of the music.

A high-end music systems goal is to faithfully reproduce the music that was recoded. One evaluates a high-end system by listening and using your experience of hearing live instruments and voice against how well the audio system is reproducing that live detail of individual voices and instruments.

If you are familiar with symphonies, one area you would listen for is when the violins are playing does the audio system reproduction make them sound like congealed mass or can you get a sense of individual violins playing as you would hear when you are at a symphony. That separation from congealed mass from a low end audio system moves towards high-end systems as the system gets better at giving you that perception of separate violins, or the airiness of the oboes playing in the back, or the sense of individual voices singing in the chorus. As the reproduction quality of the high-end audio system improves, you can get a sense of the hall the orchestra is playing in, etc. This is the hobby.

No high-end system is perfect. Entry level high-end systems are not costly.

There are many sonic wonders at low prices and cost does not always mean better. There are plenty of "audiophiles" who are chasing the next costly piece of equipment even though its reproduction of instruments/music, when compared to live unamplified sound, is not a step forward.

As a note, A few weeks back I helped a friend setup an entry level high-end audio system. On my recommendation he purchased Pioneer SP-BS22-LR pair of speakers (designed by a high-end speaker designer and at a price that is remarkable for performance) along with a Cambridge Audio entry level integrated amp and using a dacmagic dac. Good entry level system at a very affordable price. He had it hooked up with lampcord for speaker wire and the first time I came over to hear it I brought along my spare Kimber Kable 8tc speaker wires. After listening for a bit to his system we replaced his lampcord speaker cable with my Kimbers. The change in sound knocked him off his chair. A step in the direction of hearing further separation and wholeness to instruments and voice, better sense of air around instruments, etc.

So a brief summary, as I know it, of training your ears and what true high-end equipment is.

 

[john_k_antony]

I would really like to contribute my 2 cents into this discussion. I am also convinced with the fact that it is not the speakers or the equipment, but your brain gets used to a system over a period of time.

However, my recent experience tells me a different story. I recently setup a small 2 channel system in my bedroom. I used KEF Q300 speakers taken from my HT room. Apparently, for the Left channel, I used a KEF Q300 that was being used in the HT room before and had 30-40 hours of "heavy" use on it and the Right channel was a totally unused KEF Q300. There was a very perceivable sound difference from both the speakers. The "used" Left channel had more loudness and clarity compared to the "un-used" Right channel. I had to reduce the channel level to -2db for the Left channel to match the sound to Right channel. I think that more and more I use, the Right channel speaker will sound equal to the Left channel.

Thanks,
John.

 

[Rockfella]

And that happens with good audio gear

When people start enjoying the music all these technicalities fly out of the window.

Just my 2 paisas.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I would really like to contribute my 2 cents into this discussion. I am also convinced with the fact that it is not the speakers or the equipment, but your brain gets used to a system over a period of time.

Regardless of whether burn-in is there, or actually happening in any instance, I am sure this is true. Not only do our ears get used to sound, but, as equipment ceases to be new, we settle in to just listening, instead of letting consciously critical thinking get in the way.

 

[manoj.p]

And that happens with good audio gear

more importantly, with good music. Good music sounds good regardless of audio gear.

 

[anirbandd]

And that happens with good audio gear

Not really. There is an auto driver in my locality who enjoys listening to his bhojpuri music tremendously.

Through his china mobile on Sonie headphones.

 

[manoj.p]

Missed this post.

I appreciate the interest and I'll fill in what I can from my experience.

First, for training your ears careful listening to live unamplified instruments and voice whenever you can is the greatest help. There is a lot of detail that we can hear but without attention is taken for granted and unnoticed. As an example, listening live to a cymbal being hit by a drumstick, with attention, you can hear all kinds of detailed resonances as the metal is struck. Most people are unconscious of the level of detail that could be perceived through hearing because, I feel, we are so visually orientated. But with attention to what we are hearing we can develop our ability to hear details and discern nuance. It is no different, I believe, than practicing 3 point shots in basketball and finding that with practice you improve, as one example of lots of things that you can get better at with practice and attention.

The realm of audiophiledom I follow revels to hear this live level of detail for all instruments and voice when reproduced by their audio system because this detail brings out more of the sounds of the instruments and the artistry of the musicians and brings on that live magic of the music.

A high-end music systems goal is to faithfully reproduce the music that was recoded. One evaluates a high-end system by listening and using your experience of hearing live instruments and voice against how well the audio system is reproducing that live detail of individual voices and instruments.

If you are familiar with symphonies, one area you would listen for is when the violins are playing does the audio system reproduction make them sound like congealed mass or can you get a sense of individual violins playing as you would hear when you are at a symphony. That separation from congealed mass from a low end audio system moves towards high-end systems as the system gets better at giving you that perception of separate violins, or the airiness of the oboes playing in the back, or the sense of individual voices singing in the chorus. As the reproduction quality of the high-end audio system improves, you can get a sense of the hall the orchestra is playing in, etc. This is the hobby.

No high-end system is perfect. Entry level high-end systems are not costly.

There are many sonic wonders at low prices and cost does not always mean better. There are plenty of "audiophiles" who are chasing the next costly piece of equipment even though its reproduction of instruments/music, when compared to live unamplified sound, is not a step forward.

Can't disagree with this. Listening is important.

As a note, A few weeks back I helped a friend setup an entry level high-end audio system. On my recommendation he purchased Pioneer SP-BS22-LR pair of speakers (designed by a high-end speaker designer and at a price that is remarkable for performance) along with a Cambridge Audio entry level integrated amp and using a dacmagic dac. Good entry level system at a very affordable price. He had it hooked up with lampcord for speaker wire and the first time I came over to hear it I brought along my spare Kimber Kable 8tc speaker wires. After listening for a bit to his system we replaced his lampcord speaker cable with my Kimbers. The change in sound knocked him off his chair. A step in the direction of hearing further separation and wholeness to instruments and voice, better sense of air around instruments, etc.

So a brief summary, as I know it, of training your ears and what true high-end equipment is.

Although, in the above example, I think the highlighted part could be the culprit. Not much surprise there. Did you guys try it with any other sturdy, 14AWG or higher cable, like BlueJeans etc?

But the question still remains whether cable break-in can make difference. Anyhow, I was just done in another thread about cables, so don't want to repeat all over here again. If the Kimber or any other cable makes a difference, so be it. I don't perceive cable making difference, so I guess we each are happy with our choices.

 

[rsud]

....<deleted>

But the question still remains whether cable break-in can make difference. Anyhow, I was just done in another thread about cables, so don't want to repeat all over here again. If the Kimber or any other cable makes a difference, so be it. I don't perceive cable making difference, so I guess we each are happy with our choices.

I think you've established a camp here without really doing any listening, as noted, on a high-end system.

Cable break in is a subtle effect. Hearing differences between brands of cables is not very subtle if done on a system with good resolving abilities, again, a high-end system. The point was that once ones ears get trained you continue to improve your ability to discern what you hear and would likely get to the stage where you have hearing memory and can notice changes over longer periods of time like cable break in.

But on the short term.... As you note, lampcord can sound different than a decent gauge cable. So you really want to stake that there can be no further discernible differences when improving metallurgy, shielding, and spacing on a cable?

I really suggest you, and others, seek out a well setup high-end system to listen to, if you can. You may be amazed by what you will hear.

 

[captrajesh]

once ones ears get trained you continue to improve your ability to discern what you hear and would likely get to the stage where you have hearing memory and can notice changes over longer periods of time like cable break in.

Well said. Matches well with my personal experiences too.