Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[Analogous]

Wonders if I should post of the curves that I like.

I remember way back when I had my proper first HIFI unit. The Sony GR88. This had a V curve to start with and then most times I used to listen with the rock curve on. Extremes of frequencies with not a midrange in sight. Loved it back then when I did not know any better. Am sure, the V curve still has it's fans.

Come to think of it, I think the amp was actually fine as I had used it with other speakers and found it acceptable I think it was the speakers with the V curve.

That broadly correlates with the groups below….the curves we prefer are not fixed and may change over time
It may change if there is a change in gender too!

 

[keith_correa]

To make a subjective value into an objective one?

If one wants that to be consistently repeatable, yes.

 

[Analogous]

If one wants that to be consistently repeatable, yes.

Let’s Remember it’s for 64%
Majority opinion does not negate the opinions and preferences of the rest.

 

[square_wave]

@Subjectivists, An objectivist ( in the audio hobby) believes that the epitome of loudspeaker design is one that adheres to certain measurements and belief systems within the AES itself. It is as good an approach just like all the other types of belief systems within the industry. I think we should just kill and bury this horse and be done with it.

@Objectivists, I had couple of questions which has always bothered me with your approach.

Q1 - Let's say, you buy a speaker that adheres to your criteria and set that up well in your house. Let that speaker be " the one" that meets all those criteria really well. You are convinced that beyond this point, it is all colour and subjectivity.

A friend / audio professional brings another speaker that belongs to the subjective camp to your home and sets that up well. When you listen to it, it blows your mind with its performance and you realise that you stopped listening to the other speaker albeit once in a while out of curiosity. Will you sell the other speaker and get this one for yourself ?

Q2 - What are those criteria that brings more performance to the table when you go up the ladder among speaker models within companies that believes in objective measurements. Speaker brands like ATC, Quested etc. Some of their speakers cost a lot of money. Their entry models for studio already measure well. All that is needed to increase box size, power handling capacity, frequency extension which should not affect pricing so much. Ahuja kind of approach also should be able to get you all that. It is actually very easy to get the same measurements using much cheaper drives and choice of materials, components, construction techniques etc.

 

[arj]

That broadly correlates with the groups below….the curves we prefer are not fixed and may change over time
It may change if there is a change in gender too!

It also changes by demographics. I remember reading about a study in the US where there were difference across Caucasians , Hispanics and African Americans. There are of curse known differences by Age and Gender.

So applying the curves in an indian scenario may not be very objective..of course unless a study is done we will not know.

 

[keith_correa]

Let’s Remember it’s for 64%
Majority opinion does not negate the opinions and preferences of the rest.

And since this was in response to me, how is this relevant to my post that you quoted and responded to?
Yes, it is for 64% or whatever - no reminders needed.
Yes, it does not negate anything - no one claimed that it does.

 

[jls001]

Which version of the Harman curve is being referred to here?

 

[keith_correa]

Which version of the Harman curve is being referred to here?

<frantically googling for it!>

 

[ssf]

It also changes by demographics. I remember reading about a study in the US where there were difference across Caucasians , Hispanics and African Americans. There are of curse known differences by Age and Gender.

So applying the curves in an indian scenario may not be very objective..of course unless a study is done we will not know.

Can this be more related to the predominant music of the countries that require a certain curve to enjoy ? Maybe, a study needs to be done with the type of music as a constant.

 

[Analogous]

And since this was in response to me, how is this relevant to my post that you quoted and responded to?
Yes, it is for 64% or whatever - no reminders needed.
Yes, it does not negate anything - no one claimed that it does.

If you meant taking a subjective preference expressed by 64% of the survey sample respondents and interpreting it as “consistently repeatable” objective value, then it is relevant to the discussion.

If not, then it’s not relevant.

 

[arj]

Can this be more related to the predominant music of the countries that require a certain curve to enjoy ? Maybe, a study needs to be done with the type of music as a constant.

if i remember right it was a scientific study using test tones using multiple subjects across demographics in the US and not music since it was primarily a hearing response study..came across while evaluating a hearing aid for a relative
so

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

@Subjectivists, An objectivist ( in the audio hobby) believes that the epitome of loudspeaker design is one that adheres to certain measurements and belief systems within the AES itself. It is as good an approach just like all the other types of belief systems within the industry. I think we should just kill and bury this horse and be done with it.

@Objectivists, I had couple of questions which has always bothered me with your approach.

Q1 - Let's say, you buy a speaker that adheres to your criteria and set that up well in your house. Let that speaker be " the one" that meets all those criteria really well. You are convinced that beyond this point, it is all colour and subjectivity.

A friend / audio professional brings another speaker that belongs to the subjective camp to your home and sets that up well. When you listen to it, it blows your mind with its performance and you realise that you stopped listening to the other speaker albeit once in a while out of curiosity. Will you sell the other speaker and get this one for yourself ?

Q2 - What are those criteria that brings more performance to the table when you go up the ladder among speaker models within companies that believes in objective measurements. Speaker brands like ATC, Quested etc. Some of their speakers cost a lot of money. Their entry models for studio already measure well. All that is needed to increase box size, power handling capacity, frequency extension which should not affect pricing so much. Ahuja kind of approach also should be able to get you all that. It is actually very easy to get the same measurements using much cheaper drives and choice of materials, components, construction techniques etc.

Answer to Q1: if you know if the objectively better speaker is truthful to the recording, knowing the fact that the friend’s differently tuned speaker isn’t true to the source , it will never blow and objectivists mind, no matter how expensive they are.

Answer to q2, when you need a better version of a speaker like genelec, it all comes to better directivity and lower distortion when you go up the ladder - meaning you have a better possibility of correcting the room interactions without speaker bottoming out. Flat frequency out of the box Alone doesn’t mean a speaker is good.

 

[Kannan]

Guys..behave like Boys....
It is high time we talked about curves like Hourglass, Pear, Spoon, Pear, Apple, Diamond, Athletic...............than the boring Harman, Toole, JBL, Olive etc...

I am sure there will be some universal consenses.
Shall we vote on this @Analogous ...maybe you can provide a technical side to these curves being a doctor

 

[Analogous]

if i remember right it was a scientific study using test tones using multiple subjects across demographics in the US and not music since it was primarily a hearing response study..came across while evaluating a hearing aid for a relative
so

The challenge of using one piece of music to survey sound preferences across cultures, languages, demographics, sexes etc and get reliable and replicable results would be impossible?

 

[chander]

if you know if the objectively better speaker is truthful to the recording,

How does one know this?

 

[Analogous]

This dead horse is fascinating

 

[Nitin K]

Is it "Objective Horse of Subjective Horse"?

Sir, the poor horse is the same. Only the rider changes.

 

[Bloom@83]

Answer to Q1: if you know if the objectively better speaker is truthful to the recording, knowing the fact that the friend’s differently tuned speaker isn’t true to the source , it will never blow and objectivists mind, no matter how expensive they are.

This blew my mind…

 

[arj]

The challenge of using one piece of music to survey sound preferences across cultures, languages, demographics, sexes etc and get reliable and replicable results would be impossible?

it was not about music..it was an auditory/hearing study..and now i need to find that again

 

[square_wave]

This blew my mind…

Similar thoughts here. How will an objectivist do this ? Blowing one's mind is a completely emotional phenomenon!