Power cables - am bewildered!

[keith_correa]

<snip>But if you open an electrical distribution panel, they use thick copper strips as bus bars, and not of aluminium or iron.<snip>

Not where I live. Was dropping my little daughter to her bus stop and on the way I saw that the Reliance Energy guys had opened up a panel and were fiddling with something. The bus bars are thick all right but are NOT copper. They are aluminium. I asked.

 

[keith_correa]

After reading the thread title, I was hoping (against hope:lol that a non believer has turned to believer after getting down to doing his own testing and was truly "bewildered"

Alas, that was not to be. Sigh :sad:

Have done some "testing" by way of trying to create my own cables with different types of crude techniques of noise rejection etc. My "lead" ears did not hear any difference. So, will attribute this to: 1.The system not being "resolving" enough. 2.Lack of knowledge and hence my techniques were not effective enough to make a difference. Have not tried with a commercial audiophile power cord though. Maybe it will work maybe it will not. I was just trying to understand how it works [if it does] given what I said in the first post.

 

[keith_correa]

OT but somewhat relevant. He! He!

 

[jls001]

Have done some "testing" by way of trying to create my own cables with different types of crude techniques of noise rejection etc. My "lead" ears did not hear any difference. So, will attribute this to: 1.The system not being "resolving" enough. 2.Lack of knowledge and hence my techniques were not effective enough to make a difference. Have not tried with a commercial audiophile power cord though. Maybe it will work maybe it will not. I was just trying to understand how it works [if it does] given what I said in the first post.

When you have time, you should borrow from me a factory made power cord from a name brand (with UK pins), and a DIY effort (Indian pins), and give them a good comparo. I will not bias you beforehand by mentioning which I like more in my setup.

 

[jls001]

Not where I live.

They cheaped out:lol:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

OT but somewhat relevant. He! He!

I always like the look of cheap solutions (yeah, yeah, I tried the green marker ) and when I see a cheap solution from what I regard to be a fairly exotic company then I'm more inclined to believe hyeah:

 

[keith_correa]

<snip>that a non believer has turned to believer after getting down to doing his own testing and was truly "bewildered"

Alas, that was not to be. Sigh :sad:

Oh, I'm far from being a non-believer, Captain. Well OK, I'm a non-believer TILL I experience it MYSELF in that it makes a difference. And if it works, THEN I may attribute it to pyscho acoustics or djinns

 

[arj]

If you really want to try a good cheapo power chord get a original Finolex 4mmsq cable. use 3 of them to braid and use it with a good Brass or copper connector (Not steel)
it does pretty well
it has its extremities rolled off but for the money it is the Most VFM.I use it for my extension boards and till my regenerator

 

[keith_correa]

If you really want to try a good cheapo power chord get a original Finolex 4mmsq cable. use 3 of them to braid and use it with a good Brass or copper connector (Not steel)
it does pretty well it has its extremities rolled off but for the money it is the Most VFM.I use it for my extension boards and till my regenerator

Done that a while back. Did absolutely nothing bad or good. Extremities rolled off? Are you saying that this power cord rolls off frequency extremes?

Why on earth would brass be preferred for plugs? Look up the conductivity of brass vs. other material. I'd rather use aluminium. I know I've seen inexpensive plugs with aluminium prongs somewhere - I forget where. If brass is preferred as opposed to steel then, OK, I would prefer brass. BTW, in IEC sockets, apart from steel [I think], anyone see prongs of copper or any other material being used?

In relation to another post re. AWG of power cables, I have never seen a stock power cable burn up. In a system at a party putting out ~100W at many points in time, the power cord [if you can call it that] was ~30 feet long and was el cheapo wire that the electricians use as extension cable. Yes, it was twisted. Maybe that made all the difference :lol: AWG must have been ~18. So much for AWG.

 

[magma]

BTW, in IEC sockets, apart from steel [I think], anyone see prongs of copper or any other material being used?

.

IECs
Many of the good ones use Cu
the better ones use Furukawa sourced copper
others use Red copper
others use Copper with rhodium plating
some with 18k gold plating

Oyaide furutech etc

 

[arj]

BTW apparently almost 50 % or more of Finolex cables in the market are Fake...so be sure you re getting the original

This test was done with a pretty high end setup and with finolex power cord on the cd player the Bass thump in grandmas hands (livingstone tayler) was missing while with another cord it was there..everything else being same.
In my own experience in my setup (nowhere near as resolving) the midrange etc comes across very well with finolex..also tried at someone else's house. since my setup in those days I could not anyway get that much of the extension anyway (the thump is at around 25 hz !) I could not try the test out.

You can obviously draw your own conclusions and as i said before, I have no clue on reasons
just sharing what i have heard and you are obviously free to choose what you want in your system and if it sounds good for you it must be good. if there is not difference you are a lucky guy..at least you have tried it and not spouting on stuff you have read on the net and never ever tried !

 

[magma]

BTW apparently almost 50 % or more of Finolex cables in the market are Fake...so be sure you re getting the original

!

this is correct
Finolex cables are now mostly marketed only to projects
They are hardly seen on the retails markets
(hence the emergence of fakes)
You have to be content with Polycab ( if you are looking at comparable products)

 

[keith_correa]

My Dad had a reel of Finolex cable lying around for many years [he used to collect more junk than me] and I'm pretty sure it was the original.

Anyways, we [me included] are going OT discussing cables and conductor material that make a difference. So, back on topic...

 

[jenson]

i have no experience with hifi cables...but i did get an opportunity to use siltech IC's with WBT connectors. dunno whether it was the WBT or the cable or a combination of both...but it did bring in a tone which is liked a lot...was a turning point for me in to the believers club...

however, beyond a certain price point, it is also catering to hifi enthusiast who have the big bucks to spend. it's like saying, why wear a knize or a saville row when you can get a raymond.

so the thumb rule of keeping the price point to 5-10% of your overall system cost sounds reasonable...and i certainly feel that connectors are really critical along with isolation and rf shielding. if these can be taken off, we are atleast assured that the connections are iron clad with no vibration or rf interference.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

IECs
Many of the good ones use Cu
the better ones use Furukawa sourced copper
others use Red copper
others use Copper with rhodium plating
some with 18k gold plating

Oyaide furutech etc

Gold plating... well, it prevents oxidation, of course, but the oxides can always be cleaned off, at least from the plugs.

Next time I'm in UK I think I'll seek out a contract for Cornish copper, exclusive supply. I just wish I still had my drawplates!

Having been out to a great concert this evening, forgetting all this stuff, I still find myslef thinking back to the article written by the Lampizator guy. Must revisit his site, he has a way of explaining things I think I can understand

 

[captrajesh]

here's the "wondering" part. The feed from the transformer to the junction boxes in our homes and the miles of feed to the transformer most likely use aluminium or at best non fancy and OFC [Oxygen FILLED] copper. Then it arrives to the switches through who knows what wire at home. And then for the last mile [feet actually] people claim that fancy pants cables make a difference? How?? Elaborate shielding! OFC copper! Braiding techniques! EMI & RFI prevention techniques! I can understand that the purpose of these techniques is to eliminate "garbage" getting in from the switch connections till it reaches the equipment BUT what about the "garbage" that is getting in till the point of the switch? Do all of these techniques actually eliminate that "garbage" that is already in there and exists at the point of the switch?

Have done some "testing" by way of trying to create my own cables with different types of crude techniques of noise rejection etc. My "lead" ears did not hear any difference. So, will attribute this to: 1.The system not being "resolving" enough. 2.Lack of knowledge and hence my techniques were not effective enough to make a difference. Have not tried with a commercial audiophile power cord though.

Now I'm truly bewildered.

When you have time, you should borrow from me a factory made power cord from a name brand (with UK pins), and a DIY effort (Indian pins), and give them a good comparo. I will not bias you beforehand by mentioning which I like more in my setup.

IMHO, prejudice would be a more apt word to describe the situation.

I'm a non-believer TILL I experience it MYSELF in that it makes a difference.

That's where we differ. I would keep an open mind and experience it myself first.

if it works, THEN I may attribute it to pyscho acoustics or djinns

There you go; you seem to be be not only are you not sure of yourself but you seem to be prejudiced too.hyeah: (Having interacted on the forum, taking the liberty of commenting on your post. No offenses meant. Kindly take it as a friendly banter)

Anyways, we [me included] are going OT discussing cables and conductor material that make a difference. So, back on topic...

Not at all. I thought we were trying to discern why do the differences exist in the first place

 

[keith_correa]

That's where we differ. I would keep an open mind and experience it myself first.

Of course we differ. I'm not you and you are not me and just because we differ does not make my approach wrong or yours right and vice versa.

There you go; you seem to be be not only are you not sure of yourself but you seem to be prejudiced too.hyeah: (Having interacted on the forum, taking the liberty of commenting on your post. No offenses meant. Kindly take it as a friendly banter)

Not prejudiced at all. I think. That post was meant to be a joke. I don't believe in djinns. Now gremlins are another story And I have nothing against pycho acoustics - if I hear [or think I hear] a positive difference - what's not to like?

Not at all. I thought we were trying to discern why do the differences exist in the first place

No, I was trying to understand WHY using "audiophile" cables for the last mile would make a difference when "hash"/"garbage"/whatchumaycallit may already be in the line till the point of the switch and how these "audiophile" cables eliminate what is already in there if there is no power conditioning applied after the switch on the wall. Phew!

 

[mowgli80]

No, I was trying to understand WHY using "audiophile" cables for the last mile would make a difference when "hash"/"garbage"/whatchumaycallit may already be in the line till the point of the switch and how these "audiophile" cables eliminate what is already in there if there is no power conditioning applied after the switch on the wall. Phew!

From my high school knowledge, transmission power loss is dependent on resistance of cable. Theoretically, a better conductor will reduce power loss from the plug point to the equipment i.e. more power is available to equipment at any instant.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't think that that is disputed. Isn't it going to be a fact whether we are connecting a $20,000 power amplifier or a kettle? It is going to be basic electrical/safety practice to use cords, connectors, etc that can easily carry the maximum current that is likely to be drawn, which is going to include peaks. We see this easily in the starting up of a refrigerator or AC compressor, or even a laser printer. The engineers can say that that is an entirely different kind of load, but it is still a peak current draw --- large enough, for instance, that most domestic UPSs will not support a laser printer.

I don't think it id disputed that we need to accommodate peak loads to our audio equipment, even though it has power supplies that include power reservoirs.

Current drawn is not ephemeral, it not some sort of half-unknown unmeasurable of the nature that audiophiles love because they cannot be denied.

No argument at all with decent quality cables, known to be somewhat over-spec for size/resistance. No argument with good plugs, good contacts, good cable termination under the covers. I wouldn't mind buying such cables for the fridge, let alone the hifi. As for sockets, I'm fed up with replacing them because they just don't grip. Guess what: I buy my plugs, adapters, etc, in Singapore. Is this excessive? It's partly because I often need the British/Singapore flat-pin 13-amp-plug pattern, but also because I just don't find local stuff to be as good.

But What of the exotic market? Does anyone publish numbers. test results, to show that their power cord is superior, and in what way? If they do, are they honestly presented, not marketing-dept-massaged to look good like the popular speaker market does to decorate its boxes?

This is basic electrical engineering: they have either produced a better power cord or they have not. Basic engineering works by numbers, not faith.

But of course: I have to buy it, I have to try it, I have to hear it, and my wish for basic engineering honesty is all crap, because, even though all the other devices in our lives work by pure science and technology, audio devices, somehow, just ...don't.

 

[shanmune]

No, I was trying to understand WHY using "audiophile" cables for the last mile would make a difference when "hash"/"garbage"/whatchumaycallit may already be in the line till the point of the switch and how these "audiophile" cables eliminate what is already in there if there is no power conditioning applied after the switch on the wall. Phew!

A very basic and logical question/point you have put. I haven't seen any direct answer for your question. Of course Thad has presented his thoughts very nicely. As long as the power cables do have the necessary bandwidth to provide peak load current or dynamic load, I wanted (and very curious) to hear from people who say that these short length power cables, coming from the power socket to the audio system, do make some difference when the entire input power itself is containing some garbage. I am not debating either for or against exotic power cables, but curious to know if some one has really experienced a significant or even a subtle improvement with those cables.