Power cables - am bewildered!

[keith_correa]

Having posted the above, I realize that it may appear to be rude [was not meant to be], too direct [was meant to be] and directed at certain FM's but that was not my intention. It was never meant to offend. In advance, if I have stepped on anybody's toes, I apologise.

 

[nshankar]

If there is garbage already in the wall socket point, it is almost impossible for just a fancy power cable to get rid of it. It does depend on what is the nature of garbage, for e.g., a cable cannot convert a distorted sine-wave to pure sine-wave.
Even if a power conditioner is used, the A/V system may not be able to bring out the audible difference in using a fancy power cable.
Even if the A/V system did bring out the audible difference by using a power fancy cable in quality terms, an average human ear may not be able to notice the difference.
The point is that these fancy power cables are not for mass market.
Infact, I do not consider that we have evolved to accept the fact that power conditioners can be considered mass market devices and must be included in the chain of all HTs/Stereo.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

So in a way, you agreed with me and said that the analogy put in terms of Rolex and timex is not apt ...

It's kind of apt, because of the point that what he Rolex buyer is paying for, even including the percentage that represents the brand name, is known and quantifiable --- but it's true that my viewpoint changed entirely whilst I was arguing

Just a quick acknowledgement of your post. Now I see there is a lot more to read and digest...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

This may have been said before but can't power cable guys do something straightforward like measure the electricity input with their cables vis a vis standard cables, and share those measurements, possibly for a well know audiophile song that might make challenging current demands ?

Patently it doesn't suit them to do so.

Why is this specific product offering shrouded in mystery when good solid data is available for all other audio components?

Alchemy. Mythology. Many buy it. Correction: according to our tastes and inclinations, we all buy it in some way with some products.

Another question - if power cables make so much of a difference, does this mean that amplifiers are delivering severely distorted audio signals if off the shelf power cables are used? Does this mean that their thd numbers are a lie, or does this mean that the numbers are only applicable in lab conditions with perfect current supply and are not relevant in real world usage?

Food for thought.

Or does this mean that the music coloration or effect caused by power cables are outside the realm of distortion or other measurable attributes? Or maybe that is a whole another debate entirely. I don't even understand how music can sound warm or bright while still not being considered distorted. Or maybe it is to do with relative loudness of certain frequency bands.

Listeners either want high fidelity, ie an experience of the recorded music which is accurately reproduced as possible, or they want a sound colour/flavour that they are comfortable with. Personal choice. Nothing wrong with that.

If so, why isn't anyone bothering to measure these things I.e. warmth, airy, clinical, bright etc. Isn't it fair to say that an audio playback system that alters the relative loudness of certain frequencies is distorting the source signal? Shouldn't this be fairly easy to measure as well?

Of course the relative loudness of certain frequencies leads to warmth or coolness. Of course it can be measured --- and controlled. The right tool for the job is an equaliser, not a cable. For reasons of distorted High Fidelity history, the equaliser is traditionally despised (where did the tone controls go, and why?), but the cable, whether it works or not, is considered part of the audiophile "art."

Sorry, I am really meandering.

It's ok by me, but, sorry Keith, I know this is not all about power cables .

Having posted the above, I realize that it may appear to be rude [was not meant to be], too direct [was meant to be] and directed at certain FM's but that was not my intention. It was never meant to offend. In advance, if I have stepped on anybody's toes, I apologise.

It is no problem with me: I like a blunt argument. There are members here who, when they run out of any sort of logic, turn to personal slurs and attacks, which is a shame, but the cut and thrust of dissecting the topic and throwing it around is healthy, and can even lead (Oh Horrors!) to the discovery that one is wrong . It's worked for me in the past. Who knows, it might even work on this one....

 

[cs_rajesh]

Dude,


However only for my tube amp, I am planning to get a good power cable done by Mr Murthy (Tools and Trades, Bangalore). This cable will be connected between Vertex and the amp. I think that this would help reducing the potential transformer hum in the tube amp. Murthy's cables are very high end and doesn't cost a bomb. I am already using his highly raved speaker cables and ICs and they are SOLID performers.

Thanks,
John.

Hey John
can you pls share the contact of Mr Murthy from Tools and Trade? I am about to set up my home theatre. With basic equipments I have had terrible consequences due to power fluctations at my house and I want protection for my upcoming expensive equipments.

these days equipments are digital and therefore sophisticated and at the same time quite sensitive and require equally expensive digitally controlled power conditioners/ stabiliziers etc..

Also Mr. Murthy's speaker cables and connectivity could be of help

regards
Rajesh

 

[asliarun]

It is no problem with me: I like a blunt argument. There are members here who, when they run out of any sort of logic, turn to personal slurs and attacks, which is a shame, but the cut and thrust of dissecting the topic and throwing it around is healthy, and can even lead (Oh Horrors!) to the discovery that one is wrong . It's worked for me in the past. Who knows, it might even work on this one....

Well said. There's a fine line but IMHO, it can be walked.

 

[Nikhil]

Wow lots of stuff going on in this thread.

Power Cords do make a difference. They have made a difference in my setup with some qualifiers - solid state gear is mostly dead silent so its very hard to hear the difference there. However tubes are extremely sensitive to any "noise" in your system.

I have not gone through all the comments so not sure if someone has already posted this link:

Why Power Cords Make a Difference by Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research.

Please read the article as I think most questions raised here have been answered quite nicely.

 

[keith_correa]

I have not gone through all the comments so not sure if someone has already posted this link:

Why Power Cords Make a Difference by Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research.

Please read the article as I think most questions raised here have been answered quite nicely.

This is the first post in 9 pages that is relevant. Thanks Nikhil! Will try to understand what is said in the article.

 

[tirthankar]

-- felt that the post didn't add anything. So deleted --

 

[kanwar]

Wow lots of stuff going on in this thread.
solid state gear is mostly dead silent so its very hard to hear the difference there. However tubes are extremely sensitive to any "noise" in your system.

Nikhil,

A poorly designed TUBE AMP +Poorly designed Power supply is susceptible to NOISE & HUM [Irrespective of the sound Quality]. If you think power cords in your case made a considerable difference, time to change your amp...........

Your post will most probably be refuted because:

1. Shunyata is a power cable manufacturer. They inevitably have doctored literature.

Right said Tirthankar

The claims made by Shunyata are HILARIOUS and seeing this thread its evident that people who lack technical background are much easier to fool. :clapping:

One of their Bizarre Claims:
"A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and it's connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image."

Anyone who is well versed with Switching Power Electronics will readily understand that the EMI/NOISE generated by rectifiers switching at 60/50Hz halfwave currents will not reflect AS IT on primary circuit of the transformer because of the Finite Transformer Inductance being present. These snake charmer researchers are claiming something which is blasphemous in itself. If that would have been the case then a normal application of microwaves in kitchen would have TORMENTED the house hold appliances let alone an audio equipment designed with lacking skill set. on which these kind of people thrive.

 

[kanwar]

For those who can understand or want to see something in action in real life

This is the waveform of a switched 3 level converter. This 1khz Sinewave is actual audio signal of finite value and the square waves are 2 stepped response waveforms, the power delivery is around 4KW continuous. Can you see any DISTORTION in the sinewave, Apart from the clipping of tops and bottom which is purposefully done. The high speed rectification is taking place at 30A current draw at continuous basis. I fail to see any artifacts on the sinewave of 1KHz.

And you think that a power cord can work wonders according to the snake oil claims when a rectifier which is working at frequency 10X lower than the above example with much less load.

 

[anuragn]

Why Power Cords Make a Difference by Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research.

Please read the article as I think most questions raised here have been answered quite nicely.

After going through this article, (misconception #4) I see that he assumes that power is always inherently clean and the noise is mostly generated within the equipment like at the FWBR. And that EMI's role in dirtying the power is negligible.
Porbably he has not seen the condition of power supply in India. I am saying this because it is not only EMI but also the spikes and fluctuations in the voltage of the supply that affects the performance.

Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.

I am not an electrical engineer, but assume that Mhz & Ghz would be classified as RFI. I wont believe the lines quoted above.
Proof: I remember when I was a kid and we used to have a CRT at home, there would always be some noise in the picture visible in the form of grains whenever a motor bike used to pass in front of our house. So what happened to the high impedence?

 

[kanwar]

Yet another shit claim

"A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration.

A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting a signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached."

What a JOKE,

According to this Moronic Snake Oil Charmer[i know someone will get hurt for sure] Power cables conduct AC POWER and Speaker Cables Transmit Signal.................:lol::lol::lol:

Dude, Take a break......Electrons don't know that they are running as a stream singing "Oh Baby Don't Break My Heart" or Sinewave of 50hz which is AC power, Both the AC power and Speaker Signal are forms of alternating currents, with a FINITE VOLTAGE and FINITE CURRENT VALUES .

EMI riding over Mains AC sinewave has nothing to do with the type of cable used, A cable cannot ELIMINATE CONDUCTED EMI, it can only suppress RADIATED EMI by Twisting.

Speaker cables or Mains chord both have same functions and both transmit POWER not some snake oil.

"Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component."

Yet another display of lack of engineering background. What to expect with such a display of ignorance.

Even a normal speaker cable has one Hot and another Cold.

Yet we have 3 phase AC mains, with 3 Hot and one Cold and similarly in Bridged amps We have BOTH HOTS with phase difference

"In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length."

SO that you can sell atleast more than 3 feet of cable per customer to raise your profits. :yahoo: According to him power cords act as a filter of EMI and thus must be increased in length, more length less EMI........... WOW :clapping:

"But subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Esthetics is also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables."

Paint it in beautiful colors to suit the tastes, Oh Vanilla Flavour Power Chord, taste Yummy hyeah:

 

[denom]

A boxing match where killer punches are being delivered at the moment, What say Keith???

TKO TIME!!!

 

[keith_correa]

A boxing match where killer punches are being delivered at the moment, What say Keith???

TKO TIME!!!

Struck speechless! :indifferent14:

 

[Nikhil]

This is the first post in 9 pages that is relevant. Thanks Nikhil! Will try to understand what is said in the article.

... I thought so too! Apparently we're pissing into the wind according to the local experts.

Good luck getting more info on here ...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

This is the first post in 9 pages that is relevant. Thanks Nikhil! Will try to understand what is said in the article.

If you really feel that all of your co-forumite's experiences, theories and opinions are irrelevant, I wonder why you asked? There are some people on this forum that seem to throw out silly-cable stuff and then sit back and wait for the fun. I do not think that is what you did: I think your enquiry was genuine. But if your enquire, you can't, surely, complain about getting answers. No answers would be cause for complaint.

As for external references, already you have (at least, this is off the top of my head)...

Audioholics, a low-bull hifi site, publishing an article from BlueJeans Cables about why they don't even sell power cables. Negative, but very relevant.

Lampizator, a very audiophile hand built tube component manufacturer's article. Negative, but covers new ground with a very practical and low-cost RFI filter.

...and probably more...

Perhaps the word you were looking for was positive, rather than relevant? That's easy: name a cable manufacturer that sells this stuff, go to their site, and you can find (if you choose to believe them) plenty of reasons why you should buy fancy, exotic, expensive power cables. They'll be happy to sell, you'll be happy to buy. Smiles all around hyeah:

Do you find Kanwar's posts relevant? I could understand it if anybody finds him a but blunt for their tastes, although a bit of bluntness is, to me, very welcome in this world of rhodium-plated fairy-dust, but never mind his style, my style or anybody else's style --- he is a pro-audio amplifier designer and manufacturer. If an engineer's point-by-point answers to the marketing claims are not relevant, then what is?

Which brings an idea to my mind... How many of our respected high-end component manufacturers also make, market and sell cables? Not many? I wonder why not!


.

 

[denom]

 

[Santy]

If you really feel that all of your co-forumite's experiences, theories and opinions are irrelevant, I wonder why you asked? .

I too wonder the same. Keith, sorry to say but I feel you could be a little more considerate in your posts.

I suggest the mods delete all the 90 posts if they are so irrelevant, atleast mine. As if the only one who has that perfect answer to the original question should write here.

Given such terms and conditions floated here, the only way to "stick to the topic" is to quote the original post and say 'yes', or give an external link which claims to be the 'encyclopedia' of the topic discussed.

Infact, I LMAOed by reading just the prelude of the so called article, for the assumptions they made in the beginning; and their attempt to force the reader to surrender to their views hyeah:

Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but its hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact.

Their scientific explanations are nothing but hilarious as Kanwar ripped them apart already.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yes, Santy, I noticed that too. The subtext is, if you want to call yourslef an audiophile then this is what you buy, believe and experience. It's the entry price to the club! And, of course, it is being read by people who want to join, or rather, who want to be seen to belong already.

The worst factor, and the most discouraging of genuine research and discovery is the it-has-to-be-expensive thing. How about people who, for instance, say that, yes, cables make a difference and their speakers sound best with Finolex? Are they allowed in the club? The big why is why do good cables have to be bling-bling-bling expensive? Why should a $30,000 system have $3,000 spent on cables? What on earth could the basis of this strange calculation, other than seller's profits? [Answer: more resolving blah blah blah ... but, does resolution work by the ten percent ratio?]

When a company says, this cable is better, but it is not absurdly expensive (like those ultrasonically welded connectors I keep harping on about ) and they sell their products with plain talk and technology, not pseudo science, I'm happy to listen to them.