Power Chord

[manoj.p]

I would have thought that the cost of a sufficiently well-spedded and built cable should be nearer $10.

All that is just basic common safety sense. Protection of ourselves, our equipment, our property. The rest is ...something else.

Nandac: if the supplier of this amps thinks it would benefit from an expensive power cord (wHoops, nearly typed an H in the word) then play safe and buy somewhere else.

+1. Couldn't have put it better.

Anyway, I should abstain from looking at the cable discussions myself. They reach nowhere and every week there is one.

 

[asliarun]

Thad, to be fair, one underpinning of the audiophile hobby is the pursuit of overengineered systems. There is a certain soul satisfaction in running a piece of equipment that you know is built really well, and has been showered with a lot of attention and care by the manufacturer. Sometimes, it is a joy to just own a good piece of equipment that is built so well, and the primary purpose even becomes secondary or incidental. I would imagine owning a good mechanical watch would be one example.

Another example (not sure why I tend to use analogies so much - guess it makes me think more clearly). I recently helped a friend buy a monitor. Now, monitors are dime a dozen from cheap Korean panels to Dell monitors that are quite decently built. However, if you start looking beyond the obvious and look for real quality, the choice becomes surprisingly narrow, and the price becomes surprisingly high.

There was NEC and there was Eizo. Arguably, Eizo is the benchmark - they still have the old-school Japanese ethos of fanatical attention to detail and obsessing on over-engineering their displays. All their monitors are still made in Japan, not China. They are considered to be the benchmark because they achieve near perfection in terms of accurate color reproduction, supporting the entire color gamut, and uniformity of color and contrast in various parts of the screen. Their professional range does start at $2000 though and it only goes upwards.

NEC actually gets very close to Eizo in terms of picture quality, and in most cases, is less than half the price (still expensive at $1000-$1500 though for the PA series). However, there will still be plenty of people who will swear by Eizo and spend the money - despite the higher cost. Well - we ended up buying the NEC PA series monitor.

With an audio system that we are assembling by hand, piece by piece, we often want the same level of over-engineering in all components to avoid the "weakest link" theory. The pursuit here is really to end up with a "balanced" system with components that match each other in terms of performance and build quality. Of course, balanced systems can be achieved at various price points.

 

[jls001]

Anyway, I should abstain from looking at the cable discussions myself. They reach nowhere and every week there is one.

Ozzy Osbourne, in an uncharacteristic moment of lucidity, sang, "like moths to a flame, when is men ever gonna learn" (from the album The Ultimate Sin).

 

[manoj.p]

Thad, to be fair, one underpinning of the audiophile hobby is the pursuit of overengineered systems. There is a certain soul satisfaction in running a piece of equipment that you know is built really well, and has been showered with a lot of attention and care by the manufacturer. Sometimes, it is a joy to just own a good piece of equipment that is built so well, and the primary purpose even becomes secondary or incidental. I would imagine owning a good mechanical watch would be one example.

Another example (not sure why I tend to use analogies so much - guess it makes me think more clearly). I recently helped a friend buy a monitor. Now, monitors are dime a dozen from cheap Korean panels to Dell monitors that are quite decently built. However, if you start looking beyond the obvious and look for real quality, the choice becomes surprisingly narrow, and the price becomes surprisingly high.

There was NEC and there was Eizo. Arguably, Eizo is the benchmark - they still have the old-school Japanese ethos of fanatical attention to detail and obsessing on over-engineering their displays. All their monitors are still made in Japan, not China. They are considered to be the benchmark because they achieve near perfection in terms of accurate color reproduction, supporting the entire color gamut, and uniformity of color and contrast in various parts of the screen. Their professional range does start at $2000 though and it only goes upwards.

NEC actually gets very close to Eizo in terms of picture quality, and in most cases, is less than half the price (still expensive at $1000-$1500 though for the PA series). However, there will still be plenty of people who will swear by Eizo and spend the money - despite the higher cost. Well - we ended up buying the NEC PA series monitor.

With an audio system that we are assembling by hand, piece by piece, we often want the same level of over-engineering in all components to avoid the "weakest link" theory. The pursuit here is really to end up with a "balanced" system with components that match each other in terms of performance and build quality. Of course, balanced systems can be achieved at various price points.

Arun,

I agree with this part. It's upto an individual if he wants over-engineered or better looking products. That's human nature. And the same thing can be applied to cables as well. But it's just that, an over-engineered cable. Will it work fine? Sure, it does. Will it sound better than the average sturdy cable? Nope. Not at all. To pass it on as it will sound better to gullible users is not right. Often in these cases, they do not have any data to back up except the word of the person promoting it.

I have no problem somebody selling an expensive cable. Heck I won't even consider its a bad thing if somebody is charging more just because of brand name. But to claim it otherwise is lying and wrong.

Just to add - I want to bring up one thing. You will never find these exotic cables/power conditioners or items in the recording studios or at mixers place. They use pro-quality, sturdy products and these are cheap. But somehow, these end up in the consumer areas as must have to get better sounding. I mean if the recording engineers used the generic cable, then the weakest link (if we assume cable being weak link for a moment) is already in your source and no amount of another exotic cable will rectify that. But the promoters swear by it. No problem with their buying decision. But to promote their bias on quality or changing signal sound like "More loyal than the king" approach. Not surprisingly, the cables that make the subtle change are not the video cables but the audio cables where its very easy to put bias in picture and have minds playing the trickery.

 

[captrajesh]

it makes sense to have two parallel threads for two different camps.

This one should be dedicated for those who believe it makes a difference and the other one for those still in bewilderment.

Nice suggestion.

Finally what we hear matters not what we read.

Bingo. I find that most of the 'bewildered' lot attribute their bewilderment to theories rather than actual experience (in a fairly resolving system), which is where the problem lies.

 

[sidvee]

Just to add - I want to bring up one thing. You will never find these exotic cables/power conditioners or items in the recording studios or at mixers place. They use pro-quality, sturdy products and these are cheap.

Not sure if shunyata is considered exotic! Used in many studios all over. And not all pro quality products are cheap either.
Shunyata Research: Professional Endorsements

Anyways coming back to the thread as predicted this thread has gone south. Pointless discussing this anyways as it always degenerates into noise. The OP is communicating with me via PM and I don't blame him.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thad, to be fair, one underpinning of the audiophile hobby is the pursuit of overengineered systems. There is a certain soul satisfaction in running a piece of equipment that you know is built really well, and has been showered with a lot of attention and care by the manufacturer.

Absolutely! And ecen some of that is cosmetic. I'm as fond of a 1-inch case milled from solid titanium as the next man. But there is still real engineering, not-necessary but nice engineering ...and bullshit.

With an audio system that we are assembling by hand, piece by piece, we often want the same level of over-engineering in all components to avoid the "weakest link" theory. The pursuit here is really to end up with a "balanced" system with components that match each other in terms of performance and build quality. Of course, balanced systems can be achieved at various price points.

And, if we can keep that somewhere between real engineering and nice-etc, then I think we are on to a winner. Recently I heard an amplifier which I later read takes a month to manufacture. Well, of course it sounded damn good, and just knowing that every drop of solder was lovingly applied would give me a lot of feel-good

But it's just that, an over-engineered cable. Will it work fine? Sure, it does. Will it sound better than the average sturdy cable? Nope. Not at all. To pass it on as it will sound better to gullible users is not right. Often in these cases, they do not have any data to back up except the word of the person promoting it.

I don't mind if it is over-engineered. Let's run heavy, armoured stuff, like the stuff they use in the street, in our houses!

I mind if it is bullshit.

I have no problem somebody selling an expensive cable. Heck I won't even consider its a bad thing if somebody is charging more just because of brand name. But to claim it otherwise is lying and wrong.

Just to add - I want to bring up one thing. You will never find these exotic cables/power conditioners or items in the recording studios or at mixers place. They use pro-quality, sturdy products and these are cheap.

Well, not that cheap --- but not stupid prices! I think they just laugh at the "hifi" stuff. Except I suspect that the ones that do use some it do it because it pleases customers who don't know any better.

Bingo. I find that most of the 'bewildered' lot attribute their bewilderment to theories rather than actual experience (in a fairly resolving system), which is where the problem lies.

Study the psychology as well as the system: without that, the thinking, and the experience, is incomplete.

 

[arj]

Nice suggestion.


Bingo. I find that most of the 'bewildered' lot attribute their bewilderment to theories rather than actual experience (in a fairly resolving system), which is where the problem lies.

Spot on.. we have armchair experts/Internet warriors in everything.. from politics to Cricket to Audio an so this is not an exception hyeah:
these days it is not much fun to participate in cable debates as it used to be 12 years ago. funnily the tube Vs SS debates have reduced and so have the Horns Vs Conventional ! but this one still lights up many a forum except the Audioasylum as they wisely have rules around cable/tweak topics

 

[rbalagopalan]

Spot on.. we have armchair experts/Internet warriors in everything.. from politics to Cricket to Audio an so this is not an exception

Based on the "Weakest Link" theory I did my house wiring like this

EB Incoming Cable to my board's Fuses by Cable -> KWH Meter 6 Sq mm wires -> Isolator 6 Sq mm wire -> Rotary selector switch 6 Sq mm -> All MCBs 4 Sq mm -> From there respectively to the Lighting boards and Power Equipments like Heater, ACs and Microwave points with suitable wire swg. The point here is, I have Chosen 4 Sq mm cable up to my Isolation / CVT for my Audio Set up. From the CVT 2 Sq mm for the Power Amplifiers and 1 Sq mm for the Pre and Sources.

All this Individual power cords are Generic and with good End connectors that's all. I did borrow some costly cables for audition from known circles before spending on them. But to my disappointment I did not find any Audible difference after spending more than half day of audition with different cables with the same Track of selected Songs / Music.

Having said the above and to add further, I opened many Integrated Amps, Power Amps All of them were having normal 0.8 to 1.5 Sq.mm multi strand individual wires connecting the Female IEC to the Fuse Point in the PCB and in case of Pre, Source and DACs the wire is of 0.5 to 1.0 Sq mm normal wires,

So I strongly feel that No point in changing the Power cords / with very heavy Sq mm at the same time very high tech shielding. All we need is good quality copper say any 99.99% purity and any good quality Insulation / Shielding is more than enough as long as the wiring right from your EB point to your Point of usage is sufficiently strengthened.

Still If some one wants to go in for a branded cable to be sure of good quality copper, insulation and quality end connectors, at the max they can go for PANGEA which are moderately priced and more than enough.

 

[arj]

Based on the "Weakest Link" theory I did my house wiring like this

EB Incoming Cable to my board's Fuses by Cable -> KWH Meter 6 Sq mm wires -> Isolator 6 Sq mm wire -> Rotary selector switch 6 Sq mm -> All MCBs 4 Sq mm -> From there respectively to the Lighting boards and Power Equipments like Heater, ACs and Microwave points with suitable wire swg. The point here is, I have Chosen 4 Sq mm cable up to my Isolation / CVT for my Audio Set up. From the CVT 2 Sq mm for the Power Amplifiers and 1 Sq mm for the Pre and Sources.
...

what you have done is the Ideal way forward. in the end what we want to do is get the best power in as it isthe power which impact and not power cords per se
I do use Finolex 4Sqmm power cords with nice connectors and really like them ..and have compared them with some much more expensive PCs and preferred these in some cases

 

[Nikhil]

There is a subtle aspect missing here that needs to pointed out i.e. how does all that is being done affect the sound? Simply put: How Does it Sound?

After committing in a particular direction in terms of how and what you want from your gear, cables offer an option in audio that is similar/analogous to using tone controls. Cables, resistors, covers, etc all affect the sound in a unique way. Depending on your skill set you can experiment with alternatives. For me - messing with the innards is beyond my capabilities.

So for a given setup and a long list of parameters - experimenting with cables gives me a chance to try and squeeze out just that little more out our rigs? This is not always a successful task but it is an option out there for those who want to try it. Needs patience and the gear to do so.

And as they say ... a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[nandac]

panagea seems to be held as vfm in many audiophile forums. but their SE series seems more expensive than shunyata venom series.

btw some trivia : i was very surprised when i came first across shunyata as audiophile cables. because shunyata meaning 'emptiness' in sanskrit for many years was my pet philosophy. it was originally taught sometime in 2nd century CE by a madhyamika buddhist monk called nagarjuna in the region of what is today andhra pradesh. the ruins of nagarjunikonda is the place where he probably taught. and shunyata cables surprised me further by naming their cables after snakes (naga)!!!

 

[bhagwan]

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/ac-cables-elrod-statement-gold-power-chord-2013-12-06-power-spain

I wonder how these Power Cords would be ?
Has anyone tried them ?

 

[Tanoj]

Nice video proving that cables make the difference

Gingko Audio, the DanaCable test, Dana Robbins demonstrates cable damping, RMAF 2013 - YouTube

Regards

Tanoj

 

[asliarun]

panagea seems to be held as vfm in many audiophile forums. but their SE series seems more expensive than shunyata venom series.

btw some trivia : i was very surprised when i came first across shunyata as audiophile cables. because shunyata meaning 'emptiness' in sanskrit for many years was my pet philosophy. it was originally taught sometime in 2nd century CE by a madhyamika buddhist monk called nagarjuna in the region of what is today andhra pradesh. the ruins of nagarjunikonda is the place where he probably taught. and shunyata cables surprised me further by naming their cables after snakes (naga)!!!

That is utterly fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing!

 

[square_wave]

Spot on.. we have armchair experts/Internet warriors in everything.. from politics to Cricket to Audio an so this is not an exception hyeah:

Yes - spot on

People need to get off their chairs and asses more often and try out things and come back and post. Actual experience gives a lot of credibility !!

 

[sidvee]

panagea seems to be held as vfm in many audiophile forums. but their SE series seems more expensive than shunyata venom series.

They are definitely VFM Nandac, but IMO the shunyatas are in a different league altogether. So if you do have the option of getting them, do so. Unfortunately here in India, as I understand there is no Shunyata dealer, so you will have to buy blind which is a risk you will have to assume, if not, better to stick with cheaper alternatives such as basic pangea at $50-$60. Just basic IEC plugs will cost $30, so you can't wrong.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Actual experience gives a lot of credibility !!

As requested...

I bought a mains cable from Russ Andrews (yes, I really did used to ogle stuff in their catalogue) in maybe 1990-something. I still have it, and I still use it, because, as mentioned, hey, I paid for it.

Back in those days I also used to buy nameless liquids to clean CDs, etc, but that's another subject.

Did it make a difference? Well, I could have sent it back, but I didn't ...but, frankly: no. Or certainly nothing like 100's (Rs10.000 in "real" money, as a boss of mine used to say) of difference to a 600 amplifier. Not resolving enough? Well, 600 really was a fairly substantial price for an amp back then, and Cyrus was still the original British manufacturer: Whilst there is always better, yes, I think it is.

By the way: it seems that I "insult" people, so I don't suppose I'll be around here much longer. My friends (who remain friends, whether we agree on cables or not) might like to note: [email protected]. Thanks.

 

[jls001]

By the way: it seems that I "insult" people, so I don't suppose I'll be around here much longer. My friends (who remain friends, whether we agree on cables or not) might like to note: [email protected]. Thanks.

Insult people? And you? What utter nonsense! I totally disagree.

Do stay.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I get a bit heated sometimes

But I think a decent argument should be forthright, blunt, etc. I hate the fact that this sounds a bit like modern management jargon, but... tear the thing to bits and see what's left.

I once heard that this is part of how some schools of Jewish rabbis (priests) train: they take the teachings and go at each other hammer and tongs over them! Anyway, even if it isn't true, it ought to be