Power Chord

[Ambio]

.........you will get to know, where this thing started.I think no one has problem with expensive cables.their money they can spend it anywhere they want. But if someone says expensive cables makes difference and you dont have courage and conviction to experience it, then what will you say. .... So whatever ranjeetrain has said is very much true and he is not talking out of the blue, he has sensed something after reading this thread.
...

Spot on! I took time to read all the posts and the name calling started by referring non-believers as a confused lot. Those were not the exact words but that's how I would feel being a rationalist.

I have not finished reading all the posts but I would like to touch about a particular brand that was mentioned here. This brand supposedly received many endorsements by professionals.

The truth is such endorsements may be indirect advertisement. The truth is big companies usually get their supplies for free or a fraction of the retail price. You may pay 2 times for a Mercedez but a well known chairman of a public listed company most likely be paying much less than that. Why? That's indirect promotion for Mercedes.

If you are famous audiophile guru or a sound engineer it is most likely you will get the equipment for free or with a huge discount. The manufacturer/dealer/distributor can be assured of selling more by knowing they have some well known person doing the indirect promotion. No wonder the rich are getting richer.

 

[jls001]

But if someone says expensive cables makes difference and you dont have courage and conviction to experience it, then what will you say.

I say they're talking about something they don't know first hand. They're shooting from the hip. In the dark.

In my rather limited experience, power cables I have tried make a difference to the sound. YMMV, etc.

FWIW, the best power cables I have experienced in my setup are high purity (7N POCC), shielded, multistranded copper cables. The next best is also shielded multistrand 5N copper. The third best is also a shielded cable. But I was also very happy with the big and bold sound of a solid core copper cable I tried. But the changes are rather subtle, and not like swapping out to a better preamp. Also, using a much more costly connector had only marginal effect on the sound in my setup (but it was nonetheless there), and I gravitated to gold plated prongs as sounding best to my ears, while rhodium plated ones weren't too far behind.

 

[dheerajin]

Jls001..i have different view on this...whatever you have experienced is placebo effect IMO.
Why dont these power cable manufacturere patent their cables , and they could have earn more selling the technology to NASA rather than to audiophiles(spelling mistake).

Can you please confirm with any of the electrical or electronic engineer available nearby.

 

[Ambio]

Can you please confirm with any of the electrical or electronic engineer available nearby.

I have disagree with you on this one. There are a few of them who could hear the difference.

p.s. we had a disagreement earlier in another thread. Could you please refresh my memory on that?

 

[Fantastic]

From an engineering point of view, the only parameters that seem to come into play is the contact resistance ( very small of course) and the shielding of the cable to RF interference. If the amp is very sensitive to supply voltage changes and has sensitivity to ingress of RF on the supply lines then the amp will probably have some 'small' noticeable difference with different power cables.
If it's a well engineered amp and is relatively insensitive to supply line variations and quite immune to RF on the supply lines then it will probably sound the same on any power cord.
So if your 'average' inexpensive amp shows no difference , it's probably because it is a 'GOOD' well designed amp !

 

[dheerajin]

Ambio..Hearing a difference is altogether different matter, even i could hear a difference because of placebo. Point is- what about electric connection at your home, just changing power cable to amp , power signal get altered.
Forget about disagreement...charity begins at home...try to sort out them with better half[emoji6]

 

[Fantastic]

Hi-Fi News mag used to test amps and sweep the signal into the RF region. They showed the 3D plots ( X,Y,Z scales) and some amps had low level audio artifacts as the signal went into the RF range. I wish I had some of those mags which I threw away a long time ago. Should be there in some Brit library !

 

[prem]

I feel the power plug contact with the wall receptacle is the most crucial. They should be tight and not move around. Else a lot of micro arcing happens. Most people don't pay attention to this crucial aspect. I personally don't like plating on the contacts. Prefer brass or copper.

Coming to cables, yes they can cut a little noise based on what braiding or filters or shields are used in the cable. To me it's akin to having a water filter at the end of a tap.

I like to hardwire my power cables at the receptacle end. Reducing number of contacts always helps. In India this can be done but abroad it's not allowed for safety reasons. Your insurance becomes void.

 

[Ambio]

Ambio..Hearing a difference is altogether different matter, even i could hear a difference because of placebo. Point is- what about electric connection at your home, just changing power cable to amp , power signal get altered.
Forget about disagreement...charity begins at home...try to sort out them with better half[emoji6]

There is only one electric pole for the 10 house on my side. That was a special pole that I paid for to have a dedicated three phase connected from the cable directly from substation at the intersection where they harvest solar energy to be fed back to the power distribution. Initially, when the feed in system was introduced I could feel a flicker when the system kicks in but now the have fine tune it.

The music system was connected with a dedicated phase just for the music system. It was also isolated from rest of the system with its own dedicated earthing with a 12 foot rod. The system is completely isolated from rest of the house. Even after going through such extreme audiophillia stage I never heard a difference. Now, I am cured and do not care for such extremities but the only good thing about it when God decided to pay me a visit on Deepavali day.

My house took a hit. Knocking off two computers, lights, fan but the system and others survived. I will never forget the white light that filled the house. It was so pure and mesmerising .

And my system still sound the same with 1000 or 100 cable as long I audition them blind.

 

[jls001]

Jls001..i have different view on this...whatever you have experienced is placebo effect IMO.

Then it must be a good sort of placebo effect. But I can tell you what I hear with better power cable - first and foremost - they consistently reduces the noise floor, and it is immediately discernible from the first few notes when one hits play. A side effect is one wants to play the music louder. They also bring about an assortment of other +/- changes too tedious to list here. Others may like to chip in with their experiences.

Why dont these power cable manufacturere patent their cables , and they could have earn more selling the technology to NASA rather than to audiophiles(spelling mistake).

I believe some cable geometries are patented (e.g. Jade Audio). Some metallurgical processes that eventually find usage in audio (though not exclusively), are patented too (e.g. Prof Ohno's Continuous Cast Monocrystal copper)..

Can you please confirm with any of the electrical or electronic engineer available nearby.

I don't know what you're leading to and how the presence of an electrical or electronics engineer may help clarify or reinforce or nullify what I heard with my ears.

BTW, what I think you're asking me to do is called appeal to authority. But in this case the suggested authority is the wrong sort

If you were asking me to confirm if my power cables and power connections for electrical safety and correct engineering practices conforming to the laws of the land, then yes, an engineer in the house would help.

 

[dheerajin]

Jls001...i am simply asking you to confirm with engineer, that how an electrical cable can alter the signal. I am talking about only electrical cable, not the ones which comes with small circuit for filtering the noise.Till date no scientist has confirmed , what miracle power cable can do nor any amplifier manufacturing company had supported the claim made by cable manufacturer. In some other forum, i had read,- some guy have written to some top amplifier manufactureres asking for which power cable should I use.Reply was same- we dont support such claims made by any cable company.Stock cable supplied by us is best.
If possible one can try to write the mail to amp companies and see the replies they give...

 

[dheerajin]

Posted by ambio

If you are famous audiophile guru or a sound engineer it is most likely you will get the equipment for free or with a huge discount. The manufacturer/dealer/distributor can be assured of selling more by knowing they have some well known person doing the indirect promotion. No wonder the rich are getting richer.


Spot on..direct nail on head..

 

[jls001]

Jls001...i am simply asking you to confirm with engineer, that how an electrical cable can alter the signal

Unfortunately I don't know any electrical or electronics engineer equipped with the right set of measurement tools to make such measurements. But it is definitely a good idea. I can only guess that power cables, like any other electrical component in an audio chain, will alter the electrical signal that is passing through it. We should be able to expect change in the basic waveform itself, the phase would get re-arranged a bit, and perhaps there will be some loss of amplitude, etc. Now, the trick would be to understand how these changes affect the sonics (assuming we believe that it can).

To make a fuller measurement, one would also need devices that can measure magnetic and electrical fields that may be present in the area, and how much of it gets induced through the power cable, and how they change the desired electrical signal. I guess it's complicated. Till someone comes up with conclusive results, we continue using our ears.

 

[Ambio]

Then it must be a good sort of placebo effect. But I can tell you what I hear with better power cable - first and foremost - they consistently reduces the noise flo.

As I have previously mentioned in the Noise Floor thread, youu should NOT hear any noise floor at the loudest volume knob position. I used to hear a slight noise when my ears were about few inches from the speakers. In the ESL speakers I hear zero noise even if I press my ear to the grille cloth. If the NF is audible with ordinary power cable at your sitting position then please rerun your cables and check the polarity.

I believe some cable geometries are patented (e.g. Jade Audio). Some metallurgical processes that eventually find usage in audio (though not exclusively), are patented too (e.g. Prof Ohno's Continuous Cast Monocrystal copper)..


...

I just finished reading the patent and what a joke! audiophiles citing patent document to prove their point and in the patent they admited that objectively they couldn't prove a thing but claimed that some audiophiles' reported better sound !!! It is a vicious cycle.

Experimentation shoWs that connecting component ele ments of audio systems using cables having the novel struc tures of cable 1 as shoWn in FIGS. 1-2 seems to produce perceptiblyimprovedsoundqualitycomparedtothoseaudio systems using standard cables. Objectively con?rming this improvedsoundqualityhasnotyetoccurred,saybyanalyZ ing Waveforms of the audio signals. Nevertheless, the con sensusofaudiophilesWho listentoidenticalmusicalcontent playedbyaudiosystemsusing?rststandardcablesandthen cableshavingtheconstructionofcable1,isthatsoundquality isperceptiblybetterWiththeseimprovedcables.
Video systems may also bene?t When using cables using thestructureofFIGS. 1-3,althoughsinceatleastdigitalvideo hasverypreciselycontrolledtiming,colorationandphasing, theeffectofcableshavingthestructureofcable1may notbe aspronounced, ormay notevenexist.
Itispossiblethatcableshavingthedesignofcable1subtly reduce or otherWise affect ph

Itispossiblethatcableshavingthedesignofcable1subtly reduce or otherWise affect phase shifts among the harmonics inintermediatestagesoftheaudiosignalsWhenusingstan dard cables to carry these intermediate audio signals to the individualcomponentsformingtheaudiosystems.Underthis hypothesis, these altered phase shifts are responsible for the perceived poorer performance of systems using standard cables. Highly sensitive audio spectrum analyZers may be able to identify the actual basis for the perceived improve ment in sound quality, although no one has yet done this, to the inventors knoWledge. It is also possible that this novel audio cable design affects or produces the improved sound qualitybecauseofsomeother,unknoWnfactor

.

 

[jls001]

@Ambio: I'm not referring to that sort of noise you can hear when placing your ears close to the speakers. When I say reduced noise floor I mean to say that music seems to emanate from a blacker background, especially noticeable during inter note silences.

Try DIY-ing the 'joke'. I have, but modified it to suit materials I could lay my hands on. Damned best sounding cable I have. Ignore the verbiage of the patent doc for now.

 

[keith_correa]

Posted by ambio

If you are famous audiophile guru or a sound engineer it is most likely you will get the equipment for free or with a huge discount. The manufacturer/dealer/distributor can be assured of selling more by knowing they have some well known person doing the indirect promotion. No wonder the rich are getting richer.


Spot on..direct nail on head..

IMO, this is just speculation and even if not doesn't prove anything either way and is irrelevant to what is being discussed. So spot on or not - it's irrelevant. And I missed the reasoning of why the rich get richer by doing this. Why? How?

And why NASA? Do they need that "patented" technology if it exists? Or is NASA used the way most Indians use it - as an institution indicating the pinnacle of science? Or do they need power cords to power stereo equipment in their spacecraft :rolleyes

 

[Santy]

@Ambio: I'm not referring to that sort of noise you can hear when placing your ears close to the speakers. When I say reduced noise floor I mean to say that music seems to emanate from a blacker background, especially noticeable during inter note silences.

I tried to convey the same earlier in the other thread but I guess it failed. There was a confusion between noise and noise floor and I am still seeing it continue.

 

[dheerajin]

IMO, this is just speculation and even if not doesn't prove anything either way and is irrelevant to what is being discussed. So spot on or not - it's irrelevant. And I missed the reasoning of why the rich get richer by doing this. Why? How?

And why NASA? Do they need that "patented" technology if it exists? Or is NASA used the way most Indians use it - as an institution indicating the pinnacle of science? Or do they need power cords to power stereo equipment in their spacecraft :rolleyes

May be spot is not visible to you..
NASA thing is analogy for the claimed power cable technology , which uses metal from the same earth and sings songs from the mars..

Analogy should not be referred as reference

 

[keith_correa]

...I just finished reading the patent and what a joke! audiophiles citing patent document to prove their point and in the patent they admited that objectively they couldn't prove a thing but claimed that some audiophiles' reported better sound !!! It is a vicious cycle.

Which "audiophile" cited this to prove what point?

OCC was not created for use in "audiophile" cables. It's just the process that was patented. "Audiophiles" then went ahead and claimed it worked miracles. That claim was mentioned in the patent but it was not upto the good Professor to rationalize that in the patent.

 

[keith_correa]

You

May be spot is not visible to you..

Visible or not - it's still irrelevant, IMO.

NASA thing is analogy for the claimed power cable technology , which uses metal from the same earth and sings songs from the mars..

Analogy should not be referred as reference

An analogy is a comparison. If the "NASA thing" is an analogy to a technology then you are comparing an agency to a claimed technology. What can I say? What comes to mind are fruits. Apples! Oranges!

Songs from Mars? Another analogy? It's lost on dumb me.