Power Cords - Source Components - Do they make a differance ??

Let us be very specific here. We were talking about power cords, and that is what I was referring to. Nothing else.

If you find that power cords do make a difference, I am quite happy. For myself, all I was trying to do was to find some rationale behind why they make a difference. I am sure I will find it somewhere.

Cheers
 
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Let us be very specific here. We were talking about power cords, and that is what I was referring to. Nothing else.

Yes Sir;

Power Cords is what makes a differance.

I have 13 ++ PC's in use currently on my 2 channel audio system & I can change the cables around & the differance is 'audible' !
I have no way of 'scientifically' proving this.
However, if ever you are in Mumbai - pm me & we shall meet & I will give you
a demo - probably you will be convinved - like how I have moved away from CD's to a Computer for my playback & all 5 K CD's are just as a 'back up' !!
:clapping:
 
Let us be very specific here. We were talking about power cords, and that is what I was referring to. Nothing else.

If you find that power cords do make a difference, I am quite happy. For myself, all I was trying to do was to find some rationale behind why they make a difference. I am sure I will find it somewhere.

Cheers

Frankly you should just leave it to your setup and your ear...if you do find a difference..you have to find the best chord you can put in. and if you do not, it is Bliss ;).
In the end it is not about the price but how the cable gels in to your systems....

"Shanti" has a fantastic setup and capable of great resolution..but even in my mid-fi setup i could find differences in PCs although they may not be the same in any other setup :sad:. i just wish PCs did not make any difference .

eg a simple Finolex 4mmsq braided cable can sound better than many speaker cables costing USD300 or more in some setups (like mine ;) ) but sounding worse in some other setups...
 
"Shanti" has a fantastic setup and capable of great resolution..[/QUOTE]

Hello ARJ !

Thanks for the 'compliment'
However, you do not know. I do not think you have visited my place as yet;
I have invited you several times, but you never dropped in.

I know Dr. is A.P.
His style gives it away....

But this is a 'better' forum.
Many more participants.
I should visit it more often.

The 'moderator' had 'banned' me under the pretext of being a 'dealer'
I sent him several mails - never got any replies - but my status was restored. Hence I was away....

This will take me some time to get used to, but it should be fun & interesting to say the least...

Nice to see all the old guys here too. I could not get my original 'moniker' some one had taken it, but never uses it !! Strange...:sad:
 
There's no doubting the fact that power cords make a difference. Once you hear it, you believe. Even in my low-mid-fi setup, the effect of power cords is completely audible - especially at the source and power amp level. I don't see much difference in the preamp.

I'm contemplating building some of my own. One can source Furutech plugs for roughly 6.5-7 thousand rupees. Wattgates can be had for around 3.5k. Cardas power cable isn't too expensive either. Should be a simple project.

Cheers!
 
Let us be very specific here. We were talking about power cords, and that is what I was referring to. Nothing else.

If you find that power cords do make a difference, I am quite happy. For myself, all I was trying to do was to find some rationale behind why they make a difference. I am sure I will find it somewhere.

Cheers

Hopefully my last post before I catch tonight's flight...

Just some specific information for you to ponder about (sources: interviews with Bill Low of Audioquest, Garth Powell of Furman Sound etc):

In the beginning, every cable manufacturer specified "high purity" copper for cables, whether interconnects, speaker cables or power cords. Then came something called OFC or OFHC (oxygen free high conductivity copper) which sounded significantly different. It also turned out that there was as much difference among different OFHC suppliers as there is between normal electrical grade copper and OFHC. In our world, the differences in conductivity is absolutely irrelevant but the difference in audio performance are important. Then in 1985 Hitachi introduced LC-OFC, a long grain copper called "Linear Crystal". Van den Hul introduced similar concept with their mono crystal cables around the same time. Then in 1987 cable manufacturers started using copper cast according to Prof Ono's continuous casting process and the result was with grains of copper averaging 200 feet in length instead of the huge number of grains per inch in even the best OFHC coppers. Nippon Mining then came out with their stress-free 6N copper. It goes on...

Then there is the skin effect and other such attributes in the design of a cable.

There is little flow of current in interconnects and lots of current flow with speaker cables and power cords. Additionally, power cords conduct only a single frequency. So the design of each cable is different. As an interconnect cable essentially carries information rather than power and therefore, what matters is bandwidth, most of its detrimental effects can be heard in the first inch of the cable. On the other hand, a speaker cable goes wrong with regard to both inductance and magnetic field interaction problems and that is why longer cables sound more and more out of focus, no matter how good its design and materials are.

Power cables are a subset of speaker cables where it is not that important to reduce distortion. Conductor geometry, material quality etc are as important as speaker cables and to eliminate power related distortions, the designer looks into stranded vs solid conductors, insulation etc to control and stabilise the interaction of large magnetic fields.

As audio equipment like amplifiers need lots of power from the wall socket without introducing noise, distortion etc, a well designed power cord matters. Similarly for a source like CD player, it is equally important as the signal originates there and whatever follows will be replicas of this signal and shielding becomes important. So, if it is trash, the rest is trash. What do they say, GIGO?

Scientific proofs, yes, it is a subject of controversy in this field, especially with websites like audioholics sprouting up, heavily biased against established manufacturers and dubbing snake-oil theories. Or, may be another genleman pasting a photo of opening a can or worms. It is always nice and easy to question rather than seek answers. I don't believe that anyone searches for theoretical scientific proofs every time for whatever one does. Even a reputed magazine like Hifi Choice of UK have openly admitted that they also are looking for such proofs for power cables in spite of agreeing that they do make a noticeable difference in systems where even a tiny improvement or distortion can be observed.

Thanks for your patient reading. Good luck and good-bye.

regards.
murali
 
Yes Sir;


I have 13 ++ PC's in use currently on my 2 channel audio system & I can change the cables around & the differance is 'audible' !
I have no way of 'scientifically' proving this.
However, if ever you are in Mumbai - pm me & we shall meet & I will give you
a demo - probably you will be convinved - like how I have moved away from CD's to a Computer for my playback & all 5 K CD's are just as a 'back up' !!
:clapping:

13 ++ power cords and 5k cds! h'a'i bhagwan! ;)

just curious how have you backed up your cds to computer? the standard eac way or something else considering all the equipment you seem to have?

regards
 
you two know each other very very welll..but dont know it yet:eek:hyeah:

Even I was wondering, how come two persons having the same set of power cords, using media server with dCS, having as many CDs and living in Mumbai :eek:hyeah:!!!


I know Dr. is A.P.

Sir, no taking names...pleeeeeese:lol:
 
Thank you Murali. Asit had explained the logic behind the aligning of crystals in a cable and how they affect the flow of electrons. That is something I can accept. In a speaker cable this does make sense for two simple reasons - one the current carried is low and, two the current carries the final wave structure of the music. Thus the least amount of resistance you provide to the flow of electronics, the better. In its original form, a copper wire contains crystals that are placed in a haphazard manner, has large amount of air bubles, and of course oxygen. When you remove oxygen, you inhibit the growth of copper oxide which is known to disturb the flow of electrons. By annealing, you align the crystals as well remove air bubbles. All this has one simple effect - electrons flow freely and the wave structure is maintained.

All this is theory, and even today theory is insufficient to completely explain what is heard when different speaker cables are used. At the same time, with the proper instruments, you can measure the arriving signals, draw it's wave form, and even measure the noise floor. All this is acceptable to me.

When it comes to power cords the picture is completely different. For one, the energy being carried by a power cord is quite large over a short distance. The energy can literally muscle its way through. Secondly and more important, the energy is modified completely before it is actually used. The unit's internal power electronics convert AC energy to DC of different voltages and amperage, filter them, stored them in capacitors and then supply them to the unit's parts for usage. These power units have their own tolerances, and as long as these tolerances are met, they can supply the correct DC current required.

Now the movement of electricity in both AC and DC form has been around for ages, and scientist have developed ways of measuring this accurately. Thus at both the point where the AC current enters the unit and the DC current after conversion should be easy to measure and analyse. A designer should be able to explain how or why the carriers from the power socket to his measurement point would make a difference. There is no subjectivity here and this is all I would like to see and understand.

I do agree this is a topic that will continue after you and I die. So be it.

Cheers
 
For myself, all I was trying to do was to find some rationale behind why they make a difference. I am sure I will find it somewhere.

Cheers
I know exactly where you are coming from. had been trying to be get the thory right for quite some time. as per all the discussions/discources I have had from experts, the only 3 parametrs which can be explined are 1. Wire thickness/composition 2. Wire layout and 3.Insulation.

There is also another contrarian view that the power cable is not the Last 1 m in the power chain, but the First 1 m ! as all power supplies do send some power Back into the "chain" and hence into other components..etc etc.

But in the end, theory is theory and if you hear it it is there..else it is not there...so the only discussion on power which make sense is if you are having it after hearing it on the same system at the same time... :rolleyes: jsut wish someone were able to explain the theory and make it simple. Even digital cable differences seem simple after that
 
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venkatcr : have you been able to explain, scientifically:

1. Why The Bubble Bee Can Fly ?

2. Why The sky is blue not violet ?

Jest kidding, no hard feelings pal, but science has not progressed to the point of explaining everything. Heck its still not sure if atomic 'particles' are particle or waves and whether God does REALLY dice ? :sad:
 
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God does REALLY dice ? :sad:

if you have followed hindu god-stories, you must abjure your claim to ignorance!

the eldest of the 5 pandava gods did just that - played dice and lost his kingdom!

oops! they were gods were they not?
 
Thank you Murali. Asit had explained the logic behind the aligning of crystals in a cable and how they affect the flow of electrons. That is something I can accept. In a speaker cable this does make sense for two simple reasons - one the current carried is low and, two the current carries the final wave structure of the music. Thus the least amount of resistance you provide to the flow of electronics, the better. In its original form, a copper wire contains crystals that are placed in a haphazard manner, has large amount of air bubles, and of course oxygen. When you remove oxygen, you inhibit the growth of copper oxide which is known to disturb the flow of electrons. By annealing, you align the crystals as well remove air bubbles. All this has one simple effect - electrons flow freely and the wave structure is maintained.

All this is theory, and even today theory is insufficient to completely explain what is heard when different speaker cables are used. At the same time, with the proper instruments, you can measure the arriving signals, draw it's wave form, and even measure the noise floor. All this is acceptable to me.

When it comes to power cords the picture is completely different. For one, the energy being carried by a power cord is quite large over a short distance. The energy can literally muscle its way through. Secondly and more important, the energy is modified completely before it is actually used. The unit's internal power electronics convert AC energy to DC of different voltages and amperage, filter them, stored them in capacitors and then supply them to the unit's parts for usage. These power units have their own tolerances, and as long as these tolerances are met, they can supply the correct DC current required.

Now the movement of electricity in both AC and DC form has been around for ages, and scientist have developed ways of measuring this accurately. Thus at both the point where the AC current enters the unit and the DC current after conversion should be easy to measure and analyse. A designer should be able to explain how or why the carriers from the power socket to his measurement point would make a difference. There is no subjectivity here and this is all I would like to see and understand.

I do agree this is a topic that will continue after you and I die. So be it.

Cheers

Venkat, you left out the most important aspect in describing the various ways the power is used by an equipment.

Take the amplifier. It receives an input signal. The power supply the amplifier receives, creates and stores is allowed to flow to the speakers TO REPLICATE THE SOUNDS REPRESENTED BY THE INPUT SIGNAL IT RECEIVES FROM THE SOURCE OR PREAMP. In other words, the success of the amplifier depends on its ability to create a electric signal as close to the one it receives but with a higher amplitude. So the wire providing the power to the amplifier has to ensure adequate supply as well as filtering out noises and RF disturbances etc. The better the wire material and geometry, insulation, shielding etc, the better will be the result.

In reality, especially in forums I have seen belittling the importance of power cords, the issue is more with the type of output device used in the amplifier as well as the amount of negative feedback employed (a major reason I went with products like Ayre, Theta, Pass etc who don't employ negative feedback). When one uses output devices like MOSFET and negative feedback, the amplifer design is compromised and even with smaller power supply (transformer, capacitors etc), they tend to sound powerful and look like having control over speakers. Zero feedback amps seem to have more "musciality" and need large power supply and in such equipment, believe me, the power cords make a "real" difference and noticeable. I also read a recent posting in audioasylum (Cables) about power cords and please read some of the views of the members there, especially Duster who is a very good friend of mine and the most knowledgeable and DIY guy I have ever come across (and Abe Collins, another excellent audio lover).

Moving a little away, I initially used a very good van den Hul digital cable (75 ohms) in my home theater system but then changed to a Stereovox cable after reading, listening and studying about it. Believe me, it is a huge difference.

I agree, this will be a perennial topic for years to come. It doesn't mean that we should stop critically examining such issues with our interest and knowledge and believe in something unless proven wrong.

Nothing personal in these. After all, we are all in this hobby because of our interest in good sound and to learn more.

Bye.
murali
 
Frankly you should just leave it to your setup and your ear...if you do find a difference..you have to find the best chord you can put in. and if you do not, it is Bliss ;).
In the end it is not about the price but how the cable gels in to your systems....

"Shanti" has a fantastic setup and capable of great resolution..but even in my mid-fi setup i could find differences in PCs although they may not be the same in any other setup :sad:. i just wish PCs did not make any difference .

eg a simple Finolex 4mmsq braided cable can sound better than many speaker cables costing USD300 or more in some setups (like mine ;) ) but sounding worse in some other setups...

hi arj,

i use finolex 6 mm square braided (plaited) and it is way more expensive than your 4 mm square !! - :lol:
 
I know exactly where you are coming from. had been trying to be get the thory right for quite some time. as per all the discussions/discources I have had from experts, the only 3 parametrs which can be explined are 1. Wire thickness/composition 2. Wire layout and 3.Insulation.

There is also another contrarian view that the power cable is not the Last 1 m in the power chain, but the First 1 m ! as all power supplies do send some power Back into the "chain" and hence into other components..etc etc.

But in the end, theory is theory and if you hear it it is there..else it is not there...so the only discussion on power which make sense is if you are having it after hearing it on the same system at the same time... :rolleyes: jsut wish someone were able to explain the theory and make it simple. Even digital cable differences seem simple after that

Hi arj,

let me recount my learning experience in this extreme high-end hi-fi world

(i thought i must since others have been advising tyros based on their superior experience-)

many years ago i went to cochin because my friend wanted me to accompany him - this friend owns one of the biggest plywood factories in south india and supplies special panels for the RETHM loudspeakers - we got to meet suresh (Jacob george) and we listened to the (first) Rethm - mindblowing experience! - this man had a separate isolated dedicated power line completely noise free (he said) - and we did see a massive power treating unit outside the listening room - the power cables were. apparently, insanely expensive , thick as snakes (with rattlesnake pattern), and suspended on wooden blocks to keep them off the ground - but the music i heard that day justified those cables (still lingers in my mind)

about a year ago, i heard that the rethms had been modified to house dual subwoofers to augment low bass - this to satisfy people who felt that the lowthers were not thumping enough! - and i had to hear them! - so, after a long wait, we went to kakanad in cochin again, to listen to the new rethms-
the power conditioning plant was the same and the power cables were the same - and the music i heard that day was terrible, the sound was all over the place, the subwoofers could not keep pace with the lowthers - all testimony to the fact that - at the end of the day it is the loudspeakers that matter ( and also the source) - the message being (for me) - spend money on loudspeakers and the source - and not on what connects the two or what powers the two (as long as they are not cheap/degradable)
 
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venkatcr : have you been able to explain, scientifically:

1. Why The Bubble Bee Can Fly ?

2. Why The sky is blue not violet ?

Jest kidding, no hard feelings pal, but science has not progressed to the point of explaining everything. Heck its still not sure if atomic 'particles' are particle or waves and whether God does REALLY dice ? :sad:

You DO know that these phenomena are scientifically explained, don't you?!

PS:Not yet a believer of God, so cant say if he/she/it did play dice or kabaddi.
 
at the end of the day it is the loudspeakers that matter ( and also the source) - the message being (for me) - spend money on loudspeakers and the source - and not on what connects the two or what powers the two (as long as they are not cheap/degradable)

Hi Suri, There is no doubts there...cables/power etc are tweaks that come into effect only after you have got the basics ie Room ->speaker(positioning and type)-> amplification->Source right ..it would be foolish to do it any other way.

i have come to believe (..and still learning..) that the whole experience of an HiFi has to be from a system approach ie in the end you listen to your system as a whole ..and if you feel you want to improve the system, then any component which causes the bottleneck is the first one which needs to be "improved".

Even in the above example.IF the basic problem you see in the system is due to Bad power, then no matter what component you change you are not solving the root cause..only covering one problem with another and assuming it has gone away....
eg sometimes the bad "peaky" treble or the Soft bass you hear when you change a Cord (to a better ? one) could also be due to the room reflection spoiling the higher treble or Speaker not being able to resolve the extra bass info.
And even if the cord is not a good one, the sudden tightness of Bass and nice treble could be due to the cable rolling off the bass or the high ! (as I have come to realize after a lot of heartburn and $$$ :sad: )

so a component can only achieve upto how much it is held back by...and in those situations changing the speaker/source may improve a lot of others parameters but the original problem will still remain.

...and i the cable i said could be any..power.IC,speaker or digital !
 
Hi Suri, There is no doubts there...cables/power etc are tweaks that come into effect only after you have got the basics ie Room ->speaker(positioning and type)-> amplification->Source right ..it would be foolish to do it any other way.

i have come to believe (..and still learning..) that the whole experience of an HiFi has to be from a system approach ie in the end you listen to your system as a whole ..and if you feel you want to improve the system, then any component which causes the bottleneck is the first one which needs to be "improved".

Even in the above example.IF the basic problem you see in the system is due to Bad power, then no matter what component you change you are not solving the root cause..only covering one problem with another and assuming it has gone away....
eg sometimes the bad "peaky" treble or the Soft bass you hear when you change a Cord (to a better ? one) could also be due to the room reflection spoiling the higher treble or Speaker not being able to resolve the extra bass info.
And even if the cord is not a good one, the sudden tightness of Bass and nice treble could be due to the cable rolling off the bass or the high ! (as I have come to realize after a lot of heartburn and $$$ :sad: )

so a component can only achieve upto how much it is held back by...and in those situations changing the speaker/source may improve a lot of others parameters but the original problem will still remain.

...and i the cable i said could be any..power.IC,speaker or digital !

hi arj,
food for thought! - and i should think about it! thanks!:)
 
Venkat, you left out the most important aspect in describing the various ways the power is used by an equipment.

So the wire providing the power to the amplifier has to ensure adequate supply as well as filtering out noises and RF disturbances etc. The better the wire material and geometry, insulation, shielding etc, the better will be the result.

True, an amplifier uses AC power and there the quality of cord could make a difference. But in something like a CD player where only DC is used, it should not make too much of a difference.

You know the funny thing? The human eye can more easily identify noise and disturbance compared to the ear. Yet, we do not seem to be so worried about connecting the TV using a special power cord. Why simply because it does not make too much difference as the TV makes use of SMPS that handles all these issues. A DVD Player should send badly disturbed images to the screen which is easily discernible.

Take case of a PC. Where each and every but is important, we resolve the issue most times by routing power through an UPS. If power cord could make so much difference, I should be reading HiFi Vision as 'FiHi Sivion' or something. But that hardly happens. Take a printer for example. It should actually be printing junk all the time if power cords could make a difference.

Why do we make so much noise about power cords in an audio system alone? If the designers of these systems realised the issue, I am sure they would taken care to ensure that only clean power reaches their units. Or at least, warn/advise the users as to what is to be done. Would Ayre, for example, when charging 10,000 dollars for a CD player, have found it difficult to add a 500$ power cord if they felt the need? Why would they take the chance of adding a cheapo cord and spoil their reputation? The cord they have used, I am sure, would have been chosen as the best and most justifiable for the player. If they had seen value in a more expensive cord and found it to make a large or sizeable difference to the sound quality, I am sure they would not have hesitated to consider that. If they have cut corners in something as simple as s a power cord, there is something amiss with their design/thought process.

Cheers
 
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