Recording of audience applause in live music recordings

[captrajesh]

In all live recordings, the sound of audience applauding by clapping is generally heard behind the speakers i.e. where the musicians had just finished performing which is kind of weird. Why can't it be recorded so that it is heard in front of the speakers?

Thread is open for discussion.

 

[ranjeetrain]

It can be recorded that way. And can be played back the same way too. It's another thing that few recording engineers choose to go that path.

I have a number of tracks that create a remarkable 3D sound-field, a lot more wider, deeper and extending beyond the listening position than two lonesome floor-standers would suggest capable of producing.

 

[manoj.p]

And I suppose, you are talking about 2 channel audio with 2 speakers?

 

[ranjeetrain]

Yes

Notes of music literally float in my listening room with a good number of recordings. Not only width-wise but even depth-wise. Like when you watch a 3D movie/TV you feel you are seeing the objects near to you, the same way when a drummer plays different beats you can literally visualize the placement of different pieces of the kit placed width and depth-wise.

Currently it's playing "Mere Rang Mein" from "Maine Pyar Kiya". The track is not extra ordinary. But the drum sounds and another instrument that I don't know what is it called, notes are literally floating in my room width and depth-wise.

Though there is no mention of this, this is my guess that this thread is about reproduction of audience applause in a two channel system.

In multi-channel systems there is no such criteria. What's recorded in the rear channel always comes out of the rear channel, even with the cheapest of processors. So such a discussion for multi-channel is futile.

PS: Just want to add an example. Track "I will remember" by "Toto" available from Linn Records. Another track "Zambezi" by "Tinashe" available from B&W Society of Sounds. This track doesn't even need a high-end system for such a reproduction, you just need a good headphone and you will literally feel the sound was recorded by the microphone placed behind.

 

[jls001]

I also have a question: why do recordings of applauses sound so unreal?

 

[manoj.p]

Have you guys given a thought about what would a recording engineer do if he has some surround info to encode into 2 channels?

 

[captrajesh]

It can be recorded that way. And can be played back the same way too. It's another thing that few recording engineers choose to go that path.

I have a number of tracks that create a remarkable 3D sound-field, a lot more wider, deeper and extending beyond the listening position than two lonesome floor-standers would suggest capable of producing.

That's exactly my point. It is very much doable. I have few recordings (like the Guitar in 'Greatest hits of Santana') where some instruments seem to play right in front of the speaker.

And I suppose, you are talking about 2 channel audio with 2 speakers?

Though there is no mention of this, this is my guess that this thread is about reproduction of audience applause in a two channel system.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I'm referring to Stereo music reproduction.

I also have a question: why do recordings of applauses sound so unreal?

I tend to agree with you. If the applause of entire audience is recorded, which for Rock and Pop concerts would be thousands, it should be like a crescendo but by and large in most of the recordings, there would be very few people clapping; as if there is only a small ensemble. As for tone and timbre, (of the claps) as with any other instrument, it is not comparable to the original.

 

[captrajesh]

Have you guys given a thought about what would a recording engineer do if he has some surround info to encode into 2 channels?

Not me. I'm a 2 channel guy and concerned with only what's happening on the stage and not too bothered about what's happening behind me.

 

[ranjeetrain]

I also have a question: why do recordings of applauses sound so unreal?

Umm, I can only guess.

If they record the real applause, like Rajesh pointed, it's size and scale will be determined by the size of the recoding venue and the crowd. It would be too much of a task to correctly sample the exact audience applause, and even more difficult to sum them into the final result. In a nutshell, most of the times the "applause" is just a sound-effect added in the studio (hence unnatural). That is, they are just digital trickery.

I believe many a times the applause we here are just taken from "stock sounds". Some live recordings might have the real applause input from actual microphones recorded and summed from strategically placed microphones. An example will be Bob Marley's live recording. It doesn't "seem" unnatural to me.

Have you guys given a thought about what would a recording engineer do if he has some surround info to encode into 2 channels?

They can do N number of things. But in the end I guess they just choose to rely on digital trickery.

Digital technology have become so advanced and common place that olden day's analogue stereo expander etc seem to have become kids' toys. Today's mixing engineers have at their disposal tools to create sound fields just by dragging sliders. In such a case, I don't think they would really want to it the harder way.

 

[naving]

If the digital trickery is less, the live recordings take you much closer the the performer and the surroundings. I like the recording of Ghulam Ali - The Golden Collection or Jagjit & Chitra Singh live at Royal Albert Hall ( Duniya Jise Kehte Hain..).

 

[manoj.p]

Not me. I'm a 2 channel guy and concerned with only what's happening on the stage and not too bothered about what's happening behind me.

No problem. The recording engineers always use clever ways to use whatever resources and medium available to them to encode as much information realistically. If there is a surround sound, like clapping of audience or reverberation, there have been ways to encode that into 2 channel since analog days. Recording engineers either encode the surround as "out of phase" info into L+R, like Dolby and SRS does. Quadrophoic employed Sum (L+R) and Difference of (L-R).

Anyway, long story short, there is surround information in lots of stereo tracks. The easiest way to check it is by doing "Hafler Circuit". You can google "Poor Mans surround".

The above picture shows how to extract the out of phase info without using a decoder. Its a simple experiment to hear discrete surround from 2 channel.

Coming back to your question about clapping - It's very much possible that the particular CD is recorded with such matrixed information and may be causing what you are hearing. If you have 2 extra speakers, then try above experiment and see if you get a enveloping field of claps. It would be a fun, sunday project.

They can do N number of things. But in the end I guess they just choose to rely on digital trickery.

Digital technology have become so advanced and common place that olden day's analogue stereo expander etc seem to have become kids' toys. Today's mixing engineers have at their disposal tools to create sound fields just by dragging sliders. In such a case, I don't think they would really want to it the harder way.

Ranjit,

It's not a digital trickery. This has been an practice since analog days and was even used in movies, Reel to reel, vinyls etc. As always, there are some recording engineers who went overboard and made in your face, weird surround mixes. But there also have been many mixes where it has been used cleverly, in a subtle ways and gave very good listening experience. Beatles stereo mixes is one good example of it.

 

[vkirti]

If the digital trickery is less, the live recordings take you much closer the the performer and the surroundings. I like the recording of Ghulam Ali - The Golden Collection or Jagjit & Chitra Singh live at Royal Albert Hall ( Duniya Jise Kehte Hain..).

Even in these live recording, particularly the later ones (Digital ones) there is trickery. If you notice in some of JS's live recordings the applause is the same at the end of every Ghazal which then fades out as the next one begins. I saw the video of one of these concerts (I think coming alive with JS, where he sang Main Nashe main hoon as the first song of CD 2) and it had almost no applause whatsoever, whereas the CD has the same uniform applause.

 

[square_wave]

This is ambient information that should add value to the music. It is best kept subtle and kept as non-obtrusive as possible in the background. From the point of appreciation of the musical art form, does it really matter which direction it comes from??

 

[hydrovac]

In all live recordings, the sound of audience applauding by clapping is generally heard behind the speakers i.e. where the musicians had just finished performing which is kind of weird. Why can't it be recorded so that it is heard in front of the speakers?

Thread is open for discussion.

Interesting question. Now that it's been brought up as a thread here, the entertainment business is 95% (or more) about creating an illusion. It could be, generally speaking a canned applause.
Another perspective: As the live applause becomes over overwhelmingly loud... Maybe it was mixed to this effect. Does nothing on the dialog, but holds the applause in check and makes for a much more palatable listening experience.

(oh yeah, and a lot of that crowd noise is in a place where, your speakers and ears are fairly sensitive)

 

[vkirti]

Just remembered a song by RDB sung by Amit Kumar " Dil ki baat kahin lab pe na aa jaaye" from Teri Kasam.

Amit Kumar - Dil Ki Baat Kahi'n Lab Pe Na Aa Jaaye - Teri Kasam - YouTube

It has applause which is not applause but white noise (almost , don't know a better word for it). :lol:

 

[mowgli80]

My gut feeling says it may not be possible to do it convincingly without multiple microphones and some mixing/trickery, digital or otherwise, the reason being a single microphone records sounds coming from all direction but speakers only throw the sound sound in one direction. Maybe MBLs might be able to do it more convincingly than others with their radial tweeters.

 

[vkirti]

This is ambient information that should add value to the music. It is best kept subtle and kept as non-obtrusive as possible in the background. From the point of appreciation of the musical art form, does it really matter which direction it comes from??

Wouldn't a space between the performer and the appreciator create a more engaging field ? If so then the direction would perhaps make a difference.

I guess how the claps sound also depends as to how was the original concert recorded i.e. the positioning of the recording microphones.

 

[arj]

i find applause irritating
In CDs I usually fwd to the next song but no options in LPs.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

My gut feeling says it may not be possible to do it convincingly without multiple microphones and some mixing/trickery, digital or otherwise

Even stereo itself is trickery! It is an illusion --- but, surely it is our favourite illusion, and one that we music lovers would rather call miracle!

Most of the "3D" effect that we perceive, I think, is from simple acoustic clues, eg, something quieter may be perceived as being further away. Mixing boards have pan controls for each channel, but I don't think they have forwards/backwards controls: just left/right.

Try this with framing pictures: put a darker colour around the picture, and it will seem like looking out through a window, with the picture forced back. Put a lighter colour, and the picture seems to now stand in front of the frame.

I'm sure such things happen with audio clues too. I have often noticed, at classical concerts, that when the mridangam/violin is too loud, the vocalist seems to have been moved back, even though they are sitting in the same plane.

Having said all that, it is actually possible to represent more than the flat stereo plane. This astonished me: LEDR - Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test Try it... you can "watch" the sound moving up and down! Doubtless, some speakers do it better than others, but it mostly works on my Rs16k M-Audios.

I suspect that the higher the level of ambient live-venue sounds, the further forward it would appear to be on the soundstage. I suppose this is a production/artistic choice. Actually, most live audiences are, when you just want to listen to the music, damned annoying. We want that being-there clue, but not too much. Recently, I bought a W. Classical download, and wrote it off as a bad buy after just a couple of minutes: just too much audience noise.

 

[gobble]

I think applause is always deliberately positioned from a perspective of the artist/performer on stage with the audience further down and away. So we always hear it as if we are standing in the performers shoes. It seems to be the norm in most recordings.

LEDR looks awesome to play with. I can't wait to try it when I get home ...

~G0bble