Sabaj 500w ICE amps - the budget friendly amp?

[amrutmhatre90]

But sheer loudness was not the only aspect in which the SMSL was beat to my ears. The Marantz simply sounded more musical. Maybe it was that the Marantz simply had more body in the mid range and mid bass which made the SMSL seem lean in direct comparison. While detail retrieval is good on the SMSL which was aided by the slightly lean character of the midrange, the Marantz was up there but had a much more rounded sound plus a larger and wider soundstage.

So are entry level Class D amps at the same level of performance as entry level class A/B amps? More appropriately, are these giant killers? I think not, not yet at least in my experience. And their power ratings do seems to be a bit exaggerated as well.

And to my mind, class A/B integrateds are still a better bet for a bit extra and for many, the last amp you'd need unless your use case scenario, as in mine, requires otherwise.

P.S.:- I also have a higher powered Class D amp in the Crown XLS1502 and while it has infinite power, the Marantz still comes out top trumps on the SQ aspect subjectively. And the Crown costs almost as much as the Marantz while being entirely barebones on the features front when compared to it.

Speakers used for the comparo were the KEF Q350, Boston Acoustics A26, Klipsch RP600M and PSB Alpha P5.

I completely agree with you, its not only the Marantz but the Class A/B architecture which sounds sublime.
My friend had got his NAD 3020 v2, which is a class D amp. It had the same noticeable traits of the typical Class D, but I loved the form factor.


I even had done a comparison once

Class A/B vs Class D amplifiers

Hello everyone, I have been experimenting few things in my chain, trying different pre amps, power amps and new ways of listening music. Not that I am not satisfied but wanted to learn and feel how each change in a chain affected sound, in a good or bad way. I have a Class D Crown XLS 2002...

www.hifivision.com

 

[Enkay78]

I recently got myself an SMSL DA8S for my bedroom setup. The primary criterion being WAF, I needed a device which would be small and thus unassuming in order to not draw attention to itself when placed on top of a perfume drawer. The fact that it has Bluetooth inbuilt meant i could avoid cable clutter altogether instead of having an optical wire run from the TV. The device looks smart, is very well built and wouldn't look out of place in an apple showroom. High WAF factor then and in fact, went unnoticed entirely for the first couple of days. And all this for a price of 12,999!

Perfect then?

Well, not entirely. The amp is is rated at 80wx4ohm and 40wx8ohm with a respectable THD of 0.008%, at least on paper. I also happen to have a Marantz PM6006 which is rated at 60wx4ohm and 45wx8ohm and happened to do a back to back comparo against it. While the performance of the DA8s was very respectable for the price, it could in no way, shape or form match up to the sheer grunt and muscle of the PM6006 which, at least on paper, had only a 5w advantage @8ohm while at a 20W disadvantage @4ohm compared to the SMSL. The Marantz went much louder without breaking a sweat and without the slightest hint of stress whereas the SMSL started getting shrill/distorting just about when the volume was nearing party levels. Not a necessity for bedroom duty but a point of note nevertheless if somebody thinks of implementing it in their primary setup.

But sheer loudness was not the only aspect in which the SMSL was beat to my ears. The Marantz simply sounded more musical. Maybe it was that the Marantz simply had more body in the mid range and mid bass which made the SMSL seem lean in direct comparison. While detail retrieval is good on the SMSL which was aided by the slightly lean character of the midrange, the Marantz was up there but had a much more rounded sound plus a larger and wider soundstage.

So are entry level Class D amps at the same level of performance as entry level class A/B amps? More appropriately, are these giant killers? I think not, not yet at least in my experience. And their power ratings do seems to be a bit exaggerated as well.

To justify the added cost, the Marantz does have a whole host of inputs and outputs with digital optical and coaxial and a slew of analog RCA inputs alongwith a built-in phonostage and a 6.5mm headphone out and the ability to connect upto 4 speakers or bi-wiring. And even with 4 speakers connected, the Marantz manages to reach party volumes. The SMSL does fight back with XLR input and inbuilt bluetooth coupled with a much much smaller form factor but the Marantz is the more rounded integrated amp.

And to my mind, class A/B integrateds are still a better bet for a bit extra and for many, the last amp you'd need unless your use case scenario, as in mine, requires otherwise.

P.S.:- I also have a higher powered Class D amp in the Crown XLS1502 and while it has infinite power, the Marantz still comes out top trumps on the SQ aspect subjectively. And the Crown costs almost as much as the Marantz while being entirely barebones on the features front when compared to it.

Speakers used for the comparo were the KEF Q350, Boston Acoustics A26, Klipsch RP600M and PSB Alpha P5.

I totally agree as you have your opinion based on your experience of DA8 which has the icepower 50asx2 module.(it’s also an older model)

However I definitely would form a better opinion after I have listened to merus Infineon based newer amps like Sabaj A20a/ SMSL Sa 300, sa400 etc. The recently launched Topping PA5 should also be checked.

Personally, not only about taste, Class A, A/B amps are passé for me.

 

[Enkay78]

Well I tend to follow the objective parameter list




It’s a different matter that we may prefer different amps according to our taste.

So for me class A, class A/B are archaic, big monsters which have outlive their time. And their use is a conflict for me ……I care about efficiency.

I tend to follow the objective parameters to help me form an opinion about how well the device is engineered electronically.

 

[keith_correa]

So are entry level Class D amps at the same level of performance as entry level class A/B amps? More appropriately, are these giant killers? I think not, not yet at least in my experience.

So is this entry level Class D amp at the same level of performance as this entry level class A/B amp? More appropriately, is this one a giant killer? I think not, not yet at least in my experience.

There! Fixed it for you.

 

[DB1989]

I totally agree as you have your opinion based on your experience of DA8 which has the icepower 50asx2 module.(it’s also an older model)

However I definitely would form a better opinion after I have listened to merus Infineon based newer amps like Sabaj A20a/ SMSL Sa 300, sa400 etc. The recently launched Topping PA5 should also be checked.

Personally, not only about taste, Class A, A/B amps are passé for me.

The SMSL DA8S has infineon chips

 

[raghupb]

I think the thread is about affordable class D amps and the technologies/chips behind them.
Let's not make it a class A vs A/B vs D debate.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[manniraj]

Anyone in Bangalore having these or older gen class D amps from the said companies?
Would be interested in listening to them in a stereo setup.
Cheers,
Raghu

Hey Raghu, I have the Akita TPA3255 amp from the Russian designer part of the diyaudio group buy. You can hear it if you want to taste this design as it comes with CLC on board switching supply so all in one board and pretty good sounding. They say one of the best implementation and true to its reviews it does play beautifully.

Akita "AllInOne" Amp based on TPA325x PFFB+ and LLC PSU in one board.

Hi guys and girls (if any))))) Many people know my amplifier, low price and good sound. I have a desire to improve it a little more by using high quality components such as OPA1656 opamp, Panasonic caps in power line , and Wima output caps. Write all desires here. 100-265V AC Size - 180x90...

www.diyaudio.com

One of these days I should put up this also for sale

 

[DB1989]

I think the thread is about affordable class D amps and the technologies/chips behind them.
Let's not make it a class A vs A/B vs D debate.

Cheers,
Raghu

My apologies if I'm mistaken but I assumed the entire purpose of the thread is VFM amps, whether Class D, Class A/B or Class A. That Class D offers the most watts per Rupee in the entry level segment seems to be the reason why it is centrally themed around Class D. Is it a comparison between Class A/B and Class D per se? i think not. My intention was to inform the readers about my experience ( as @keith_correa astutely observed ) of said architecture at said price point. I have heard a NAD C388 which is Class D and none of the abovementioned attributes for cheap Class D amps apply. Considering the fact that the OP was looking for VFM amps cuz his existing one couldn't drive the Q300s properly, to my mind, it would be beneficial to check out a few A/B amps around the same price range based on the common thread that seems to run amongst the products of this price category. And while we may be jaded with our experience in the forum or otherwise, for many others, it is entirely new and to those uninitiated, more watts sounds like more music but may not necessarily be the case.

 

[k_vijay12]

I recently got myself an SMSL DA8S for my bedroom setup. The primary criterion being WAF, I needed a device which would be small and thus unassuming in order to not draw attention to itself when placed on top of a perfume drawer. The fact that it has Bluetooth inbuilt meant i could avoid cable clutter altogether instead of having an optical wire run from the TV. The device looks smart, is very well built and wouldn't look out of place in an apple showroom. High WAF factor then and in fact, went unnoticed entirely for the first couple of days. And all this for a price of 12,999!

Perfect then?

Well, not entirely. The amp is is rated at 80wx4ohm and 40wx8ohm with a respectable THD of 0.008%, at least on paper. I also happen to have a Marantz PM6006 which is rated at 60wx4ohm and 45wx8ohm and happened to do a back to back comparo against it. While the performance of the DA8s was very respectable for the price, it could in no way, shape or form match up to the sheer grunt and muscle of the PM6006 which, at least on paper, had only a 5w advantage @8ohm while at a 20W disadvantage @4ohm compared to the SMSL. The Marantz went much louder without breaking a sweat and without the slightest hint of stress whereas the SMSL started getting shrill/distorting just about when the volume was nearing party levels. Not a necessity for bedroom duty but a point of note nevertheless if somebody thinks of implementing it in their primary setup.

But sheer loudness was not the only aspect in which the SMSL was beat to my ears. The Marantz simply sounded more musical. Maybe it was that the Marantz simply had more body in the mid range and mid bass which made the SMSL seem lean in direct comparison. While detail retrieval is good on the SMSL which was aided by the slightly lean character of the midrange, the Marantz was up there but had a much more rounded sound plus a larger and wider soundstage.

So are entry level Class D amps at the same level of performance as entry level class A/B amps? More appropriately, are these giant killers? I think not, not yet at least in my experience. And their power ratings do seems to be a bit exaggerated as well.

To justify the added cost, the Marantz does have a whole host of inputs and outputs with digital optical and coaxial and a slew of analog RCA inputs alongwith a built-in phonostage and a 6.5mm headphone out and the ability to connect upto 4 speakers or bi-wiring. And even with 4 speakers connected, the Marantz manages to reach party volumes. The SMSL does fight back with XLR input and inbuilt bluetooth coupled with a much much smaller form factor but the Marantz is the more rounded integrated amp.

And to my mind, class A/B integrateds are still a better bet for a bit extra and for many, the last amp you'd need unless your use case scenario, as in mine, requires otherwise.

P.S.:- I also have a higher powered Class D amp in the Crown XLS1502 and while it has infinite power, the Marantz still comes out top trumps on the SQ aspect subjectively. And the Crown costs almost as much as the Marantz while being entirely barebones on the features front when compared to it.

Speakers used for the comparo were the KEF Q350, Boston Acoustics A26, Klipsch RP600M and PSB Alpha P5.

Before buying my kef q300, I did demo at profx bangalore... With their marantz 60w amp ( don't remember model)vs my kanto yaro amp (icepower 50asx2 module based).... My amp out performed it hands down .. I went along with my dad. Even my dad felt that my amp is much more musical and clean. Even the sales guy agreed that the amp is very good.

I opted for this amp ,as it's compact and can be used on desktop as well. It has built in dac and headphone amp too. I bought this in US and paid $325 some 7 years ago. At that time it can't be branded affordable category as it's relatively expensive than main stream 50wpc AB class integrated amps

 

[DB1989]

Before buying my kef q300, I did demo at profx bangalore... With their marantz 60w amp ( don't remember model)vs my kanto yaro amp (icepower 50asx2 module based).... My amp out performed it hands down .. I went along with my dad. Even my dad felt that my amp is much more musical and clean. Even the sales guy agreed that the amp is very good.

I opted for this amp ,as it's compact and can be used on desktop as well. It has built in dac and headphone amp too. I bought this in US and paid $325 some 7 years ago. At that time it can't be branded affordable category as it's relatively expensive than main stream 50wpc AB class integrated amps

As long as you liked the sound better after having heard the difference, thats all that matters (not always but in this case, definitely).

 

[k_vijay12]

As long as you liked the sound better after having heard the difference, thats all that matters (not always but in this case, definitely).

Agree. To one his own ears judge. Icepower amps for sure are not VFM comparitively. All premium D class amps icepower, hypex, Pascal , are expensive. We are able to get these relatively cheaper cos these modules are used by new companies. While branded companies such as rotel, Peachtree, teac when use these same modules.. these are priced 3-5x times.

 

[k_vijay12]

Agree. To one his own ears judge. Icepower amps for sure are not VFM comparitively. All premium D class amps icepower, hypex, Pascal , are expensive. We are able to get these relatively cheaper cos these modules are used by new companies. While branded companies such as rotel, Peachtree, teac when use these same modules.. these are priced 3-5x times.

Biggest minus point of these module based D class amps.... Cannot be serviced. Any issue,we have to replace whole module. 4 years ago I was getting noise from amp , I went around many electronics service centers... none said they hav those specs components. Finally had to order the module from thanksbuyer and replaced the module. And it's working well

 

[DB1989]

So is this entry level Class D amp at the same level of performance as this entry level class A/B amp? More appropriately, is this one a giant killer? I think not, not yet at least in my experience.

There! Fixed it for you.

Much obliged kind sir!

But in the interest of accuracy and adequacy of information, if I may modify it a bit further to read as such:

So are these entry level Class D amps viz. (1) SMSL DA8S, (2) Crown XLS 1502, and (3) FX Audio D502 at the same level of performance as this entry level class A/B amp? More appropriately, are any of these a giant killer? I think not, not yet at least in my experience.

 

[SanVJ]

Paid 1740 in total (1150 for customs duty + 500 handling charge + 90 on tax)

The customs charged me 4500 rupees for a 65 dollar fosi bt20a amp.

Am I unlucky or what?

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

I recently got myself an SMSL DA8S for my bedroom setup. The primary criterion being WAF, I needed a device which would be small and thus unassuming in order to not draw attention to itself when placed on top of a perfume drawer. The fact that it has Bluetooth inbuilt meant i could avoid cable clutter altogether instead of having an optical wire run from the TV. The device looks smart, is very well built and wouldn't look out of place in an apple showroom. High WAF factor then and in fact, went unnoticed entirely for the first couple of days. And all this for a price of 12,999!

Perfect then?

Well, not entirely. The amp is is rated at 80wx4ohm and 40wx8ohm with a respectable THD of 0.008%, at least on paper. I also happen to have a Marantz PM6006 which is rated at 60wx4ohm and 45wx8ohm and happened to do a back to back comparo against it. While the performance of the DA8s was very respectable for the price, it could in no way, shape or form match up to the sheer grunt and muscle of the PM6006 which, at least on paper, had only a 5w advantage @8ohm while at a 20W disadvantage @4ohm compared to the SMSL. The Marantz went much louder without breaking a sweat and without the slightest hint of stress whereas the SMSL started getting shrill/distorting just about when the volume was nearing party levels. Not a necessity for bedroom duty but a point of note nevertheless if somebody thinks of implementing it in their primary setup.

But sheer loudness was not the only aspect in which the SMSL was beat to my ears. The Marantz simply sounded more musical. Maybe it was that the Marantz simply had more body in the mid range and mid bass which made the SMSL seem lean in direct comparison. While detail retrieval is good on the SMSL which was aided by the slightly lean character of the midrange, the Marantz was up there but had a much more rounded sound plus a larger and wider soundstage.

So are entry level Class D amps at the same level of performance as entry level class A/B amps? More appropriately, are these giant killers? I think not, not yet at least in my experience. And their power ratings do seems to be a bit exaggerated as well.

To justify the added cost, the Marantz does have a whole host of inputs and outputs with digital optical and coaxial and a slew of analog RCA inputs alongwith a built-in phonostage and a 6.5mm headphone out and the ability to connect upto 4 speakers or bi-wiring. And even with 4 speakers connected, the Marantz manages to reach party volumes. The SMSL does fight back with XLR input and inbuilt bluetooth coupled with a much much smaller form factor but the Marantz is the more rounded integrated amp.

And to my mind, class A/B integrateds are still a better bet for a bit extra and for many, the last amp you'd need unless your use case scenario, as in mine, requires otherwise.

P.S.:- I also have a higher powered Class D amp in the Crown XLS1502 and while it has infinite power, the Marantz still comes out top trumps on the SQ aspect subjectively. And the Crown costs almost as much as the Marantz while being entirely barebones on the features front when compared to it.

Speakers used for the comparo were the KEF Q350, Boston Acoustics A26, Klipsch RP600M and PSB Alpha P5.

I'm not surprised by your findings. Class D is just trash in general. Things like cheap,small,efficient are practical benefits, not sonic benefits. Leave the cheap class D amps in the trash where they belong. The measurements are, of course, worthless but any person interested in music and not numbers already knows that.

 

[DB1989]

I'm not surprised by your findings. Class D is just trash in general. Things like cheap,small,efficient are practical benefits, not sonic benefits. Leave the cheap class D amps in the trash where they belong. The measurements are, of course, worthless but any person interested in music and not numbers already knows that.

Those practical benefits sometimes far outweigh the Sonic benefits. Consider yourself fortunate enough to not know.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Those practical benefits sometimes far outweigh the Sonic benefits. Consider yourself fortunate enough to not know.

They never outweigh sonic benefits for anyone who loves music. If it does outwiegh the sonic benefits then IMO these people can buy any garbage and use it and it won't make a difference them or their tastes/ears, in such a case I can see the benefits where music is an afterthought. That is what I know, that in the end only the music/sound matters. Everything else is secondary, any opinion to the contrary is not in service of music rather only thinks of music as background noise.

 

[DB1989]

They never outweigh sonic benefits for anyone who loves music. If it does outwiegh the sonic benefits then IMO these people can buy any garbage and use it and it won't make a difference them or their tastes/ears, in such a case I can see the benefits where music is an afterthought. That is what I know, that in the end only the music/sound matters. Everything else is secondary, any opinion to the contrary is not in service of music rather only thinks of music as background noise.

Again, consider yourself lucky not knowing the angst. Also, i consider music to be in service of me. And if manifesting itself in all its glory gets me ejected, I'll happily live with a compromise in the shared space! For my indulgences, I have my own! Some people may not have that as well and i do consider myself lucky in this respect.

Everything is not absolute

 

[ssf]

When my Sony mini gave up on me quite a few years back, I got myself a well priced Topping TP60.50 or so Watts which I later discovered to be at 10% THD. I had my Quad 12L2 speakers connected to it. It has no power to speak of but when driven within its range, it did not sound too bad. Infact, I even enjoyed the music that I listened to on it. I still have it with me. A few months back, just for the heck of it, I connected it to my FX Audio tube pre. Now, it was playing much louder at levels that I probably would not be playing at my place. I did not play it for long as I was worried of the consequences of connecting a pre-amp to an integrated. Sound quality, I can't remember as it connected at an odd place with the speakers placed at my dining table.

The Crown XLS 2502 performs averagely when connected to my marantz reveiver. But when it is connected to the Zen Dac and tube pre, it performs much better.

Which leads me to ask, does class D power amps require more input voltage to sound their best ?

 

[amrutmhatre90]

The Crown XLS 2502 performs averagely when connected to my marantz reveiver. But when it is connected to the Zen Dac and tube pre, it performs much better.

Which leads me to ask, does class D power amps require more voltage to sound their best ?

Pre Amps also make a huge difference, its not only about class D.
I have FX Audio Tube Pre too, I too noticed a huge difference when I connected to the Crown but I even noticed a difference when I connected it to the NAD as a pre, used NAD 320BEE as a power. This combo was amazing until i got the NAD 165BEE pre amp.
Maybe the tube magic working its way or the voltage and gain is high.

That said, for the same power amps I used Yamaha WXC-50, and it sounded crap!!!
My friend who is not a audiophile could tell the difference, he said that the FX audio Tube Pre amp sounded much better than the Yamaha WXC-50. When I told him tube pre costs 5k and Yamaha is 30k he told me to return it!

With right combinations class D amps also sound good and have the analytical sound. Problem is trial and error takes lot of time and money!