The AVR VS Amplifier dilemma:-

Thanks for the clarification and I am in sync with you on this.

Before the OP can proceed to buy a power amp, it would be better if he can confirm that the distortion is only due to the power requirement of the speakers and not attributed to any other defect either at the receiver's end or at the speakers end. Any suggestions on how he can proceed with the diagnosis ? Even I am clueless except for one idea that I already proposed. That is, how about testing the receiver in stereo mode with only two channels driven (Front-L and Front-R only)? In that mode, the receiver will definetly have more power in it's reserve. With that, we need to see if the distortion occurs around the same volume leve (level - 40). If the distortion does not occur at that level, then the OP can try to increase the volume level till he sees the distortion. This should give an idea or an hint that this is generally a power requirement mismatch and there is no problem either with the receiver or with the speakers. If OP sees distortion around the same level, then either the receiver or the speakers needs some inspection. Onkyo 3010 is certified for THX Ultra 2 plus and still I am not convinced that 3010 is unable to drive the B&W speakers even at moderate volume level.

So it would be better to first verify if there is any problem and then take an informed decision on buying a power amp.

Completely agreed! As a THX certified amp, this amp should be capable of producing reference level loudness as specified by Lucas Film. And that should be *sufficiently* loud.

A few things I will suggest OP to do before taking out the wallet.

(1) Install a SPL meter on any Android phone with good quality microphones, check what SPL he plays at and report back.

(2) Setup the subwoofer at the recommended x-over point. Either the subwoofer recommendation can be followed, or the AVR default can be used. Both should work.

(3) Do a factory reset and Run Audyssey calibration. For a room 10x10 this amp should have enough head room, even with a power hungry speakers such as his fronts. More likely something is wrong with the setup. Something doesn't seem right. Audyssey can fix it.

(4) Check if the source is connected to the AVR using analog cable. If that's the case, that's where the distortion is coming from.

After trying out he can report back the findings for further help.
 
Something not right here. Onkyo 3010 is their second from top receiver. It DOES have raw power. It's surprising that its not able to drive these speakers.
 
Thank You all for the valuable info,
I tried the system on stereo mode the performance was excellent.
Crossover settings are 80Hz. there is no option for setting the speakers to small or large the crossover settings in the AVR determines the same in my opinion.
The treble is set to +10 ie max.
Tried audessy setup, it has set the gains nearly to the level I had done manually, between -2.5 to -3.5 for all the speakers.:):):):):)
All the connections are with HDMI. The source is Sony BDP S490 and seagate theater+ media player.:):)
 
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Just curious. why did you set treble to +10? Any particular reason? I wonder if that's what is causing you all the issues?
 
Thank You all for the valuable info,
I tried the system on stereo mode the performance was excellent.
Crossover settings are 80Hz. there is no option for setting the speakers to small or large the crossover settings in the AVR determines the same in my opinion.
The treble is set to +10 ie max.
Tried audessy setup, it has set the gains nearly to the level I had done manually, between -2.5 to -3.5 for all the speakers.:):):):):)
All the connections are with HDMI. The source is Sony BDP S490 and seagate theater+ media player.:):)

I am glad at least one setting is making you happy.

Setting the treble to +10 is definitely a no-no. I suggest take some heavy duty items out of the room which are acting as high frequency absorbers. Do you have wallpaper on your walls? Or any other kind of absorbers? Are your walls too soft? That might be absorbing highs, forcing you to set treble to a high point.

If that's not the case, is your listening position too high or too low? That also might be causing the issue. Aligning the listening position to speakers (or vice-versa) can help boost high frequency perception.
 
thanks that helped a lot..Treble +10..well frankly i liked it that way.
but since it affects the tweeters i will keep it low..
just curious should i go for an external amp...i mean will it makeany difference to sound quality apart from keeping the speakers safe from damage (clipping)..
 
Some of the best stereo power amps under 1 lac are from Odyssey. Many FMs are own it, including me. Check with Sridhar for the pricing. It will be hard to beat Odyssey for performance and value.

The power amp will change the tonality to a certain extent and will open up the sound quite a bit. Most likely it will be a positive change to your system, especially if the power amp doesn't have a signature of its own.
 
Some of the best stereo power amps under 1 lac are from Odyssey. Many FMs are own it, including me. Check with Sridhar for the pricing. It will be hard to beat Odyssey for performance and value.

The power amp will change the tonality to a certain extent and will open up the sound quite a bit. Most likely it will be a positive change to your system, especially if the power amp doesn't have a signature of its own.

Sir looked upto ARN systems..they are out of odyssey amps.. but have offered Usher R1.5.. I don't know wat's its performance is..can you shed some light on it.. would you recommend it..some say it is Class A amp..:rolleyes:
 
Usher, or any other mainstream brand for that matter, won't even come close to Odyssey on the performance per dollar. In its own right it may be a good choice, but you may want to hear it sing first.

Other good choices are Emotiva, as Arun suggested earlier; or a pre-owned Bryston. If you are not in a hurry, play the system at a slightly lower volume till the time you can get a high power amp and wait for a good pre-owned deal. Other popular choices in multi-channel power amp arena are Rotel and Lexicon. Adcom can also be a good choice if you can lay your hands on.
 
Thank You all for your valuable and educative info...:):):):):):)

Highly Appreciated:eek::eek::):):)
 
Usher, or any other mainstream brand for that matter, won't even come close to Odyssey on the performance per dollar. In its own right it may be a good choice, but you may want to hear it sing first.

Other good choices are Emotiva, as Arun suggested earlier; or a pre-owned Bryston. If you are not in a hurry, play the system at a slightly lower volume till the time you can get a high power amp and wait for a good pre-owned deal. Other popular choices in multi-channel power amp arena are Rotel and Lexicon. Adcom can also be a good choice if you can lay your hands on.

How do you compare Emotiva with Odyssey ? I see Emotiva (with more channels) much cheaper than Odyssey.

In your Odyssey amp, do you have a swich to toggle between ClassA and Class AB amplifier ? If so, can you please share the difference in the sound stage ?
 
AVR,

I also have an Onkyo 3010. It drives my cente and rear speakers while a Yamaha S2000 drives the front left and right floor standers. In my setup the 4 rear speakers are simple 5" 2way bookshelf type with a very stable impedance. The centre and front speakers also have a reasonably high impedance which is above 6 ohms for most of the audio range. My room is approximately 30' x 13' and the front speakers are along one of the short walls.

1. I believe the 3010 is capable of driving most speakers even without an external power amplifier. It seems to me it is the combination of very low impedance and high SPL demand that may be causing the 3010 to clip.

2. I would recommend that you first get a good 2 ch 150w/ch power amp and relieve the 3010 of front channel duty. This alone should do the trick as these 2 channels alone reproduce about 50% or more of the audio energy.
 
How do you compare Emotiva with Odyssey ? I see Emotiva (with more channels) much cheaper than Odyssey.

In your Odyssey amp, do you have a swich to toggle between ClassA and Class AB amplifier ? If so, can you please share the difference in the sound stage ?

Both are good. Emotiva is known for its multichannel amps, whereas Odyssey is a King in its price class in two-channel arena.

Emotiva will offer clean power, so will Odyssey. But when it comes to controlling an amp Odyssey works like a born champ. It's grip over speakers is amazing. I opened one to see how it looks like on the inside. I was sold by the quality inside, not just the build from outside and the way it drove. A shockingly good amplifier for the price.
 
+10db Treble set on the 3010 is probably the primary or rather the only reason why the 683 tweeters are distorting at a relative volume of 40.

Reduce it and enjoy your setup.

Adding a power amp / integrated or anything else is not going to make a difference your 683's tweeters will still distort if you continue with +10 treble setting

since you seem to like elevated High Frequency, Klipsch RF 82 or RF 7 should be right up your alley/
 
just curious should i go for an external amp...i mean will it make any difference to sound quality apart from keeping the speakers safe from damage (clipping)..
A neutral, external amp will have very little effect on sound signature in A/B comparison. Even less in blind testing. Although, if you are noticing clipping, then a high power amp will definitely help.
 
Guys like Flash has said, lets just turn the treble down. All drivers even tweeters have limited excursion limits. If the tweeter is distorting it can get damaged mostly by the voice coil detaching itself from the terminal.

I did not read the part about the +10db earlier but boosting any EQ by such high levels can lead to damage of a driver.
 
Guys like Flash has said, lets just turn the treble down. All drivers even tweeters have limited excursion limits. If the tweeter is distorting it can get damaged mostly by the voice coil detaching itself from the terminal.

I did not read the part about the +10db earlier but boosting any EQ by such high levels can lead to damage of a driver.

It might even damage your ears ...:lol:
 
All AV experts,
I have a B&W 683 HT setup with SVS SB12NSD Sub. I drive this setup with Onkyo 3010. Now what I m experiencing is that when I set the volume at above 40 (absolute 0-100) the tweeter of the floor standers some what distorts. I fear is the AVR clipping. If yes than my speakers are at risk if I drive them above 40 volume.
I searched and read on various forums that the AVR companies give some what misleading tech specs. Like this 3010 is rated 140 WPC 2 channels driven at 8Ohms 20Hz to 20Khz. Some experts have advised me that the AVR is quite capable of driving my HT setup with out any problems. But I have problems as described above. From what I have gathered it seems that the AVR gives 140-130 WPC at 2 channels driven, but however if 5 or 7 channels are driven than the position is different.
The calculations I found was that if the above is driven with 5 speakers than the power available for all 5 channels is as below:
140+140=280 /5 = 56 WPC
280/7 = 40 WPC
Now the above figures are only applicable when all the speakers need the same power at a given time, which is not the case. but still the figures above 56 and 40 wpc is very low.
So the question is whether the above calculation is correct or not further if they are true or nearly true than will a power amplifier compensate this power loss. Although some experts say that there will not be much difference in the sound as using preouts of the AVR is not recommended over the pure pre power combo.
My setup is as below:
Room size 10' X 10'
Floor standers B&W 683 rated at maximum 200 watts 8 ohms
Centre HTM 61 150 watts max 8 ohms
surrounds DS3 100 watts max 8 ohms
Source sony bdp s 490 and seagate theatre plus and Tatasky Hd
Speaker gain at -3 fronts and surrounds -1 for the centre. +10 treble on all.

Please give your expert advice on the above.
Thank You.:)

Hi,

The best solution for your problem (without any upgradation) is to Bi-Amp your front speakers.

Your receiver & fronts speakers are capable of bi-amping, so why are you not using it.

Currently you are using 5 channel out of 9 of your AV receiver. So out of remaining 4 channel, 2 channel can be used to bi-amp the front 2 speakers.

By this way, your front 2 speakers will be driven by 4 channel of your receiver which enables effective utilisation of receiver power.

Bi-amping means using seperate amplifers for Low Frequency & High Frequency drivers for your front speakers.

This should resolve your problem definitely.

Infact bi-amping should be a default way to drive the front speakers(especially floorstanders) if we have 7 or 9 channel receiver & we are using 5 channel setup. This will ensure the effective utilisation of the AV receiver power. But we must make sure both receiver & Front speakers are capable of bi-amping. In your case, both are capable.

Even after bi-amping, you will be let out with 2 channel of your receiver unused (since your receiver is 9 channel).

Caution: Make sure that you have removed the shorting terminal in your speakers before bi-amping.

Regards
Prabhu
 
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avr said:
Prabhu.ME said:
The best solution for your problem (without any upgradation) is to Bi-Amp your front speakers.

Your receiver & fronts speakers are capable of bi-amping, so why are you not using it.

Currently you are using 5 channel out of 9 of your AV receiver. So out of remaining 4 channel, 2 channel can be used to bi-amp the front 2 speakers.

By this way, your front 2 speakers will be driven by 4 channel of your receiver which enables effective utilisation of receiver power.

Bi-amping means using seperate amplifers for Low Frequency & High Frequency drivers for your front speakers.

This should resolve your problem definitely.

Infact bi-amping should be a default way to drive the front speakers(especially floorstanders) if we have 7 or 9 channel receiver & we are using 5 channel setup. This will ensure the effective utilisation of the AV receiver power. But we must make sure both receiver & Front speakers are capable of bi-amping. In your case, both are capable.

Even after bi-amping, you will be let out with 2 channel of your receiver unused (since your receiver is 9 channel).

Caution: Make sure that you have removed the shorting terminal in your speakers before bi-amping.


Regards
Prabhu
sir thank u for ur valuable suggestion. i had already pondered over biamping but did not get gud views about the same. i was told that using 7 channels would further decrease the power of the amp per channel so it would not benefit through biamping. well i m no expert but this is what i was told by the guy who sold me the speakers he said only active biamping can make a diffrence..that is why i started looking for power amp...
regards
avr

Hi,

I am suggesting you to do the active bi-amping & not bi-wiring.
You can do active bi-amping using your AVRs 2 channels out of 4 channel which is not being used by you.

Your AVR has lot of power in bi-amp mode atleast to drive the B&W which is having the sensitivity of 90db.

If you are not bi-amping the speaker; when ever there is a thunderous Bass or low frequency notes, the LF driver(Woofer) draws lot of power from the amp there by making shortage of power to the tweeter.
If you are bi-amping, you are using seperate ampilfier for LF driver (Woofer) & seperate ampilfier for HF driver(Tweeter), so during thunderous bass if the LF driver draws lot of power from the amp, it will not affect the power supplied to the tweeter since the tweeter is driven by a seperate amp.
But both amp uses same powersupply which may be factor to consider, but in your case the Onkyo AVR 3010 is capable of driving your B&W 683 very easily in bi-amp mode.
Just invest some money for good speaker cables having 14 awg (if you can opt 12 awg, then it would be best), do the bi-amping & check your self.

Check some simple explanation of bi-amping in the below given links.

Bi-amping

Bi-Amping | Articles | Polk Audio?

Are you sitting on a wealth of untapped power?

Caution: Make sure that you have removed the shorting terminal in your speakers before bi-amping.

Regards
Prabhu
 
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