The 'Dark' Art Of Room Acoustics!
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ajay124
Well-Known Member
I will try using wooden slabs, vitrified tiles and perhaps granite. The 8 mm glass seemed like a good idea for a couple of hours, but later I felt that it was making the sound leaner and brighter. The music was no longer emanating from a soundstage far behind the speakers. It seemed to be coming directly from the speakers, which had become more 'active'. Once I removed the glass from under the cdp, pre and power amp, the speakers went back to their passive, almost invisible, mode. Glass seems to be bad news in most audio scenarios.
The difference between a good speaker and a bad speaker is the same as the difference between a good actor and a star. The former disappears into the assigned role. The latter demolishes the assigned role, and pushes his own vainglorious and egotistic self forward.
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ajay124
Well-Known Member
More than the pre amp or the cdp, it is my power amp, which seems to be responding more to a glass/vitrified tile/wooden slab being placed under it. The change in SQ is more apparent, when something is placed under the power amp.
For the moment I have settled for placing the cdp and pre amp directly on the rack shelves. Under the power amp I have placed an 8 mm glass slab. The single glass slab is adding a hint of brightness which is pleasing to the ear. The moment I add another glass slab under the pre or the cdp, the sound become too bright!
Ultimately, audio tweaks are about trying out various options until you reach a level of SQ which is good! My speakers, carpet, furniture and listening sofa have found their 'permanent' placements. Hopefully the audio rack too has been sorted out. It is nice to experiment with various audio tweaks, but you have to stop somewhere, and get back to simply listening to music
ajay124
Well-Known Member
Summer vacations have begun, and my wife and daughter have gone to 'Nanis' house. I thought I would make use of my currently unencumbered status. Therefore. I cracked open a bottle of my favorite tipple. Laphroaig. Cooked a largish fish fillet in garlic and black bean sauce. And got down to practising some 'dark arts' of the audio kind
For several days I have had the feeling, that I have reached 'mid' fidelity, but the 'hi' peaks are yet to be scaled! Sound is still reverberating. Reflections from sidewall and ceiling, are still robbing the output from the speakers, of their purity and magic. There is nothing wrong with the Hifi per se. The problem is with the room. It is under furnished. As a living room, I prefer it that way, but as a music room, I need more wood, more carpet, more damping in the room :sad:
There are odd shaped peices of board, left over after the renovation. I experimented by placing them at various points in the 'audio' half of the room. I placed boards under the cdp and pre amp. I discovered that the side walls, behind the speakers were 'singing' and needed to be restrained! I placed lengths of board along the side walls. I put dining chairs, a
few feet behind the speakers. I added another small carpet behind the speakers. All these acts may seem random but the net effect in terms of SQ made my day!
I am feeling 'hi' 'er. Because of a successful round of dark art. Because of the Laphroaig. And because of the Music. Mixed bag. Barclay James Harvest. Dire Straits. Alexander Borodin. Dmitri Shostakovich.
For several days I have had the feeling, that I have reached 'mid' fidelity, but the 'hi' peaks are yet to be scaled! Sound is still reverberating. Reflections from sidewall and ceiling, are still robbing the output from the speakers, of their purity and magic. There is nothing wrong with the Hifi per se. The problem is with the room. It is under furnished. As a living room, I prefer it that way, but as a music room, I need more wood, more carpet, more damping in the room :sad:
There are odd shaped peices of board, left over after the renovation. I experimented by placing them at various points in the 'audio' half of the room. I placed boards under the cdp and pre amp. I discovered that the side walls, behind the speakers were 'singing' and needed to be restrained! I placed lengths of board along the side walls. I put dining chairs, a
few feet behind the speakers. I added another small carpet behind the speakers. All these acts may seem random but the net effect in terms of SQ made my day!
I am feeling 'hi' 'er
. Because of a successful round of dark art. Because of the Laphroaig. And because of the Music. Mixed bag. Barclay James Harvest. Dire Straits. Alexander Borodin. Dmitri Shostakovich.
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ajay124
Well-Known Member
The last workman finally left today! The house is peaceful and quite. I have made the final touches to the music room. Added a bigger and thicker carpet. 8 1/2 x 5 1/2. Natural fibres. Wool I think. Placed a 19 mm board under each component. Sound is crisp, sweet and focused. Plenty of detail and depth. Very little reverb. Good enough to keep me glued to my listening chair, for long stretches. My clumsy attempts at practising the dark art have borne fruit. Time to sit back and let the music take center stage
ajay124
Well-Known Member
I have not tweaked my system for a couple of weeks now. I have not felt the need to. I fear that even the slightest change would lead to degradation of SQ! A nice zone to be living in
My amateur attempts at practising the dark arts have taught me a few thing. Namely:
It is absolutelty essential to keep your listening room in mind, before shortlisting what kind of speaker, and what brand has to be bought. Buying a 'big' speaker for a 'small' room, merely because one can afford to and because it's strokes one's ego, is a terribly decision. The room size and shape should dictate the choice of speakers and amplifier.
Speakers MUST be placed in front of the short wall, firing down the length of the room. There is no getting around that point. A rectangular room is a blessing. A small squareish room, an obstacle. If furniture is hampering the placement of speakers in front of the short wall, then the furniture has to go. If a wife/partner is hampering the placement, then the wife/partner has to ....
Adequate distance from the front, side and back walls is absolutely necessary.
Both speakers should be equidistant from the sweet spot. A measuring tape should be used to achieve this. Once the placement is 'fixed', minor toe-in and tilting of speakers can be tried out to find the perfect sound.
Listening position should be at the tip of the triangle. Can be pulled forward or back a little bit. But once the sound has been 'locked' into place, the sweet spot should become an 'addiction', and an off axis listening position, an 'aberation'.
My far field preference has yielded place to a mid field preference. The new sweet spot is a fraction less than 8 feet from the speakers. Speaker separation is 8 feet. I prefer a closer position, because I hear more of the direct sound, and less of the indirect sound. But too close to the speakers, and the image gets smeared. Instruments overlap and some of the detail is lost. Currently the speakers are tilted backwards and upwards a little bit. They seem to have far more depth and refinement that way. Is it possible to fiddle with the time it takes for sound to arrive at one's listening position, from the tweeter, mid range and woofers, by tilting the speakers???
Quite often a bad recording is the reason for a 'dip' in SQ. One should not react to a dip instantly. It is better to play a few good recordings, before deciding that a tweak is required.
Ideally the entire floor area between the speakers and the listening position, should be covered by a thick, natural fibre carpet.
There should be adequate, but not excess funiture and furnishings in the room. Glass surfaces should be covered. Thick curtains on windows. Windows and doors should be kept shut to minimise ambient noise.
And finally. When it is all done, stop paying attention to the HiFi and start paying attention to the music
My amateur attempts at practising the dark arts have taught me a few thing. Namely:
It is absolutelty essential to keep your listening room in mind, before shortlisting what kind of speaker, and what brand has to be bought. Buying a 'big' speaker for a 'small' room, merely because one can afford to and because it's strokes one's ego, is a terribly decision. The room size and shape should dictate the choice of speakers and amplifier.
Speakers MUST be placed in front of the short wall, firing down the length of the room. There is no getting around that point. A rectangular room is a blessing. A small squareish room, an obstacle. If furniture is hampering the placement of speakers in front of the short wall, then the furniture has to go. If a wife/partner is hampering the placement, then the wife/partner has to ....
Adequate distance from the front, side and back walls is absolutely necessary.
Both speakers should be equidistant from the sweet spot. A measuring tape should be used to achieve this. Once the placement is 'fixed', minor toe-in and tilting of speakers can be tried out to find the perfect sound.
Listening position should be at the tip of the triangle. Can be pulled forward or back a little bit. But once the sound has been 'locked' into place, the sweet spot should become an 'addiction', and an off axis listening position, an 'aberation'.
My far field preference has yielded place to a mid field preference. The new sweet spot is a fraction less than 8 feet from the speakers. Speaker separation is 8 feet. I prefer a closer position, because I hear more of the direct sound, and less of the indirect sound. But too close to the speakers, and the image gets smeared. Instruments overlap and some of the detail is lost. Currently the speakers are tilted backwards and upwards a little bit. They seem to have far more depth and refinement that way. Is it possible to fiddle with the time it takes for sound to arrive at one's listening position, from the tweeter, mid range and woofers, by tilting the speakers???
Quite often a bad recording is the reason for a 'dip' in SQ. One should not react to a dip instantly. It is better to play a few good recordings, before deciding that a tweak is required.
Ideally the entire floor area between the speakers and the listening position, should be covered by a thick, natural fibre carpet.
There should be adequate, but not excess funiture and furnishings in the room. Glass surfaces should be covered. Thick curtains on windows. Windows and doors should be kept shut to minimise ambient noise.
And finally. When it is all done, stop paying attention to the HiFi and start paying attention to the music
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1. Be shot
2. Accommodated in another accommodation
3. Be given the pink slip
4. Be pampered till succumbs to wishes of audiophile
5. Some of the above
6. None of the above
Although my purchase of a lower mid level AV system is still a year or more away, and to quote someone who once famously said 'The thrill of the chase is more exciting than the thrill of arriving', it is in this very journey that I am plagued with thoughts like what to buy and how big to buy. On one hand I am fully aware of the fact that I have one of the most dreaded room shapes for AV, the L shaped room and the setup that I have designed due to options 1,2,3,4 and 5 not really being options, is indeed one of the worst possible, which would make audiophiles in this forum go ahhhhhhhhh. But, I still want the biggest that my money can buy
What surprised me is the fact that my wife taking a peek at my neatly designed 3D computer setup with a big TV, big floorstands etc suggesting that I not buy big speakers that wont suit the room.
Just this morning, I was showing her a modified plan wherein the L shape was converted into a rectangle by adding another bedroom to the otherwise seating area but she saw through my audiophilic (yes , I am now playing with words) intentions and shot it down mercilessly.
And so the thrill of the chase continues ....
ajay124
Well-Known Member
ssf
Option 7 would be to encourage wives to start surfing Hifivision. My wife does so ocassionally now. Also since a major part of my conversation has shifted from the stock markets to high fidelity, she is well on her way to becoming an audiophile. I have discovered that she has a good ear, and after I have tried out yet another tweak, I ask her to sit in the sweet spot and give her opinion. Today morning I was on a high because the system was sounding good, so I asked her to listen 'critically'.
Her verdict after ten minutes was that the sound was 'boxy' and perhaps we should check out the maggies! I have shown her pictures and discussed the 4 speakers with her. She has already given her verdict. The Magneplanar 1.7
Option 7 would be to encourage wives to start surfing Hifivision. My wife does so ocassionally now. Also since a major part of my conversation has shifted from the stock markets to high fidelity, she is well on her way to becoming an audiophile. I have discovered that she has a good ear, and after I have tried out yet another tweak, I ask her to sit in the sweet spot and give her opinion. Today morning I was on a high because the system was sounding good, so I asked her to listen 'critically'.
Her verdict after ten minutes was that the sound was 'boxy' and perhaps we should check out the maggies! I have shown her pictures and discussed the 4 speakers with her. She has already given her verdict. The Magneplanar 1.7
Ajay said:Her verdict after ten minutes was that the sound was 'boxy' and perhaps we should check out the maggies! I have shown her pictures and discussed the 4 speakers with her. She has already given her verdict. The Magneplanar 1.7
You have the electronics and the room for them. Make sure though, that the Magneplanars are indeed a worthy upgrade over your lovely Beethovens.
*these audiophiles, I tell you, sigh*
ajay124
Well-Known Member
You have the electronics and the room for them. Make sure though, that the Magneplanars are indeed a worthy upgrade over your lovely Beethovens.
*these audiophiles, I tell you, sigh*
ssf
At the moment, I am not sure whether any of the four speakers I am contemplating, would be an upgrade over the Beethoven's. Last year in Jan, when I started hunting for speakers, my 'dream' speakers were the Quad 22L2 and the Jamo D 590. A few months later, when I saw and heard the Sonus Faber Liuto's I was literally floored. For the first time I caught a glimpse of what a 'dream' speaker should be. Based on my one year old memory of the Liuto's, I would say that the Beethoven's have a better build quality than them. It would be difficult to decide which speaker sounds better without doing an AB in my room. I would give even odds to both the speakers. The VA Beethoven's would be a tough act to follow. I would like to learn more about the 4 speakers, and would love to hear them. But that does not mean, that I have outgrown the VA's. Perhaps I never will. I am reasonably certain that the Esoteric SA10, will take the sound to a whole new level, and that is the major audio event I am awaiting.
Perhaps you can share details of your L shaped room, budget, and requirements for your planned set up. It does not really matter whether the budget is big or small. The idea is to get the best bang for your bucks. I am sure you will get plenty of good advise on the forum. You are welcome to post on this thread, or start a new thread. My initial advise would be that with a 'limited' budget, and by limited, I mean a few thousands or even a few lacs, it is better to buy used than new. Because you can buy stuff from higher up the hifi ladder. Of course their is a bit of risk and uncertainty involved in buying used, but handled properly and with due diligence, it can fetch you far greater rewards than a new unit.
Most of the stuff I have is demo/used stock, bought 'blind'. I would never have been able to buy the Beethoven's, Bryston's, the Transparent Audio cables or the Esoteric at their 'new' prices. I would say that I paid roughly 60% of the full price for all the units combined. If in the near future, I wanted to trade in or sell all the stuff, I would hope to recover a major chunk of that. Because all the stuff is lighly used and in very good condition. Perhaps a 20-25% loss on my entire investment. I would accept that loss happily for the privilege of having heard such great equipment.
ajay124
Well-Known Member
For the last couple of hours I have been sitting and listening in stunned silence. A minor change in speaker placement, no tilts, no toe-in, speakers dead stable on the floor, with all the spikes screwed tight, freshly cleaned connectors and contact points .....suddenly yielded a sound so perfect, natural,transparent and detailed, that everything I have heard anywhere in the past, went out of the window. I have been doing this stuff for many months. What happened today? I don't know! But I have never heard anything like this! I never dreamt anything like this existed. To hear a huge orchestra playing live in my room, every note, every detail picked up with perfect clarity, richness and tonality. Every section of the orchestra, every instrument, with a space of it's own. Lilting, ethereal, yearning, intimate. Streaming out of a DARK SILENCE. The hifi and the room almost 'invisible'.
Played the entire two CD set of Sergei Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet, performed by The Cleveland Orchestra, conducted by Lorin Maazel ( Decca). I have heard a few live performances in Vienna, Salzburg and the Opera House in Covent Garden, London. Today I actually heard a stereo system which sounded as good, as those live performances. I can RETIRE with this sound.
Ultimately none of the reviews, opinions, or experiences of others, about any Hifi equipment, hold true. The only truth is the lonely truth. The truth you hear in your listening room. Alone! And sometimes the God's smile and allow us a glimpse of paradise. But before that happens, many things have to come together. And work together. Clean power. Good components which work as a team, and are ideal for the size of the room. A listening room of decent size and shape. Furnishings which provide the right amount of damping. Speaker placement honed to precision through trial and error. Good recordings. Silent neighborhood. A 'free' mind.
I believe that at least for the music I like, which is large scale orchestral music, digital and solid state is the only way to go. A good CD recording/high resolution files (SACD/FLAC), a good CDP/DAC (Esoteric/ Accuphase/ Weiss / Berkeley), rock solid amplification (Bryston/ Accuphase) and one or two (!) pairs of superlative speakers ( Vienna Acoustic's/ Sonus Faber's/ ATC's/ Thiel/ Maggies/ Dynaudio ) is all I need. For the moment all upgrades/changes to my system seem completely unnecessary. Buying big brands with a lot of zeros attached to the price tag may lead to audio nirvana. Most likely it won't. The approach to hi-fidelity HAS to be through music. There is no other way. Good Hifi without good music, is like a plane with an empty fuel tank. It won't fly!
* By the way, I did not imbibe any single malt or wine yesterday evening! Last night's listening session was experienced stone, cold sober
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anm
Well-Known Member
also if someone knows in delhi.
ajay124
Well-Known Member
aakashr,anm,blasto
For an average home system (anything under 500K) I don't think one needs to hire acoustic 'experts'. The basic measures and tweaks to be undertaken are available on dozens of sites on the internet.
I believe we need to isolate 'problem' areas and look at them one by one. There may be a single problem or multiple problems. One needs to isolate and focus on one problem, discover a remedy, and then move on to the next one.
In most cases the problem is not room acoustics. To put it plainly, the problem could be a lousy source, amplifier, speakers or cables. One or more of these components may need to be replaced. It could even be that the components are individually good but they don't work as a team. You need to be very very clear about where your preferences lie before building a system.
Source: CDP/Computer based/Turntable? Choose one carefully and stick with it until you have implemented the complete system. A CDP is the simplest route. The other two need far greater dedication, knowledge and research.
Amplification: Solid State or Tube? It is absolutely essential to be firmly placed in one or the other camp. Mixing both (imo) may lead to funny results. Integrated or Pre/Power? This decision should be based on budget, space and inclination.
Speakers: Floorstanders, Standmounts, Bookshelf? Three way, two way or a single driver? Primarily, room size should decide speaker size. Speaker size and sensitivity should decide amplifier size Get this wrong and one can keep audio tweaking from here to eternity, with questionable results.
Cables: One does not need crazily priced cables and IC's, but a certain amount of cash has to be kept aside for them. Personally I would prefer all cables and ic's in a set up to be from the same brand and series. Both speaker cables should be of identical length.
Placement: In front of the short wall and firing down the length of the room. For tower speakers with a rear port, a distance of at least three feet from the wall behind them. And at least two feet from the side walls. Deciding on the ideal distance between speakers will come from extensive auditioning. If the speakers are too far apart one may get a wide sound stage with little depth. Move the speakers closer until the depth increases and the width still remains satisfactory. One can keep moving the speakers closer until the sound from the two speakers starts overlapping, and then move them away from each other until a precise result is achieved. But it needs to be kept in mind that too much moving around of the speakers may cause damage to them! Speakers should never be moved while the music is playing. I switch of the system completely or at least keep the volume at zero before attempting even a microscopic change in toe in. A little toe in reduces side wall reflections and increases depth. It also helps in locking in a precise sound stage and imaging. I prefer a little toe in as it makes my system sound less bright and fatiguing. Thick carpet between the speakers and listening position. Thick curtains on windows. As far as possible all glass surfaces in the room should be covered for 'serious' listening. The listening position should not be too close to the wall behind it, as indirect sound would be bouncing back from this wall.
Strictly 'dark' art recommendations Borne out of personal experience and reading, with no knowledge of sound engineering or room acoustics to back it up!
For an average home system (anything under 500K) I don't think one needs to hire acoustic 'experts'. The basic measures and tweaks to be undertaken are available on dozens of sites on the internet.
I believe we need to isolate 'problem' areas and look at them one by one. There may be a single problem or multiple problems. One needs to isolate and focus on one problem, discover a remedy, and then move on to the next one.
In most cases the problem is not room acoustics. To put it plainly, the problem could be a lousy source, amplifier, speakers or cables. One or more of these components may need to be replaced. It could even be that the components are individually good but they don't work as a team. You need to be very very clear about where your preferences lie before building a system.
Source: CDP/Computer based/Turntable? Choose one carefully and stick with it until you have implemented the complete system. A CDP is the simplest route. The other two need far greater dedication, knowledge and research.
Amplification: Solid State or Tube? It is absolutely essential to be firmly placed in one or the other camp. Mixing both (imo) may lead to funny results. Integrated or Pre/Power? This decision should be based on budget, space and inclination.
Speakers: Floorstanders, Standmounts, Bookshelf? Three way, two way or a single driver? Primarily, room size should decide speaker size. Speaker size and sensitivity should decide amplifier size Get this wrong and one can keep audio tweaking from here to eternity, with questionable results.
Cables: One does not need crazily priced cables and IC's, but a certain amount of cash has to be kept aside for them. Personally I would prefer all cables and ic's in a set up to be from the same brand and series. Both speaker cables should be of identical length.
Placement: In front of the short wall and firing down the length of the room. For tower speakers with a rear port, a distance of at least three feet from the wall behind them. And at least two feet from the side walls. Deciding on the ideal distance between speakers will come from extensive auditioning. If the speakers are too far apart one may get a wide sound stage with little depth. Move the speakers closer until the depth increases and the width still remains satisfactory. One can keep moving the speakers closer until the sound from the two speakers starts overlapping, and then move them away from each other until a precise result is achieved. But it needs to be kept in mind that too much moving around of the speakers may cause damage to them! Speakers should never be moved while the music is playing. I switch of the system completely or at least keep the volume at zero before attempting even a microscopic change in toe in. A little toe in reduces side wall reflections and increases depth. It also helps in locking in a precise sound stage and imaging. I prefer a little toe in as it makes my system sound less bright and fatiguing. Thick carpet between the speakers and listening position. Thick curtains on windows. As far as possible all glass surfaces in the room should be covered for 'serious' listening. The listening position should not be too close to the wall behind it, as indirect sound would be bouncing back from this wall.
Strictly 'dark' art recommendations
Borne out of personal experience and reading, with no knowledge of sound engineering or room acoustics to back it up!
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There are a couple of ways to deal with this.
If you have a single sub, place it at the pressure minimum of the most annoying room mode. So now you've got maximum pressure (from the sub) at a minimum pressure location (where ever you hear a null in the room) and and the combination will even out the response.
If you have two subwoofers, you can cancel modal ringing by destructive interference. Place them on opposite walls (directly to the left & right of the listening area OR directly to the front and back of the listening area), making sure they are fed the same signal. Since peaks and dips of modes from opposing sides have opposite polarity, they will cancel (the peak from one sub fills in the dips from the other sub while the dips from the first sub pulls down the peaks from the second sub).
Either of those methods is better than using bass traps, which would have to be almost a foot thick to absorb low frequency peaks. While trapping (absorbing) low frequencies does work, it does so at the expense of sapping the bass energy from the room. Then you have to raise the subwoofer level much higher to compensate, putting a strain on its amplifier. What a waste.
anm
Well-Known Member
Sanjay - thanks for the useful post. Does this also work in case of stereo speakers and no subwoofers, as there are 2 speakers producing base, and both equal distance from the side walls?
Ajay sorry for the intrusion.
Ajay sorry for the intrusion.
anm
Well-Known Member
ok - I visualized it as subs being placed in the corners, but in front of main wall, which is like spreading stereo speakers very far till they reach close to . Does the orientation of sub driver matter if it is front firing? Should it face the listener, or the side wall? Or is downfiring orientation the best?
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