The 'Dark' Art Of Room Acoustics!

[Dr.Bass]

@DR Bass,

Timing : Perception of good timing in music is greatly enhanced in well done room. The reflections in a bad room can negate the ownership of good equipment which has an inherent capability for good timing.

square_wave, two things:

1. I am not saying room is not important, I am just saying that one needs to first settle down with a system that has these ingredients in order, or those things that matters to you in music reproduction in order. Enhancements in all directions (room, power, cables etc) will always make things better from there on. A system "worth owning" needs to be owned in the first place.

2. Lets not talk about extreme cases of bad rooms or extreme cases of great rooms. Both are rare and hence may not make a good case for this discussion.

And I do not absolutely support listening in a bare room. Curtains and carpets at the right places with some furniture (if possible) is a norm to play decent hifi. If the floor is bare, walls are bare, sorry its too much of an injustice to even a INR 100k setup. That is when all the problems you have mentioned in your post comes into picture.

 

[bhagwan]

square_wave, two things:
Lets not talk about extreme cases of bad rooms or extreme cases of great rooms. Both are rare and hence may not make a good case for this discussion.

Sir,
2 parts;
1] Good Rooms
&
2] Bad Rooms

I have come across lots of [2] but very few [1]

I personally have 'encountered' more 2's & less 1's !!!

2's can happen very easily, but 1's need a lot of planning & effort - imho.

:lol:

 

[Dr.Bass]

Let me say this to further reinforce my stand, it is very expensive and very very complex to treat a room well. IME, out of 10 rooms that are treated, 1 is very good, 2 are good, 5 are poor and 2 are disasters. The point is, it should be done, but done carefully and slowly knowing exactly what your system is capable of and what you want as the final result.

Simply speaking, if you dont have a system in the room you could still treat the room with a computer, few softwares, a microphone and few manuals and of course acoustic materials...but what will be the outcome of such a treatment ? 9/10 times you would prefer to have your money back !! Now, if you have a system then things are much better but only when you have a system that you really like and understand on its own, you can take this science and create a nice art out of it. Another option is to hire an expert, a real expert who has done serious audiophile homes.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

You may be mistaken. It may not always be so expensive to do the basic stuff in treating a room. Beyond a point the law of diminishing returns will inevitably set in and expenses rise relative to marginal benefit. Bhagwan's pictures give the impression of great expenses since the decor is very tasteful but all of it may not have been sonically relevant.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Sir,
2 parts;
1] Good Rooms
&
2] Bad Rooms

I have come across lots of [2] but very few [1]

I personally have 'encountered' more 2's & less 1's !!!

2's can happen very easily, but 1's need a lot of planning & effort - imho.

:lol:

A room which is like 2/10 to start with can be taken to 5/10 by very simple room treatment exercises as mentioned before, curtains, carpets and furnitures. Except severe bass boom most of the basics are taken care of.

Agreed, to make it a 7/10 room it takes some serious effort, planning and money. Should one take it up when his room and system is not yet finalized ?

 

[bhagwan]

Another option is to hire an expert, a real expert who has done serious audiophile homes.

Sir,
When one needs to files ones tax returns - one goes to a Chartered Accountant.
When one needs to file a case in court - one goes to a Lawyer.
When one is unwell - one goes to a doctor.

In the same manner - when a room needs to be done - one has to engage the services of an 'acoustician'
Someone that has done his masters from here :-
Msc Audio &amp Acoustic Engineering | Masters Courses | University of Salford
Besides, has experience with audiophiles & houses..
:licklips:

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Isn't it possible that, in those "extreme" cases that Bhagwan has illustrated, the design, and consultancy, the combination of calculation, brains and instinct, might have cost more than the materials? I'm given to understand that an anechoic chamber is no more ideal for music listening than a bare room. I guess that only expertise can find the balance.

<crossposted with last two posts>

If i were setting up a listening room (and I do not even have one here) then I would go at least as far as Dr.Bass's first stage (furnishings, etc) regardless of equipment. If I could, I'd go further. This is because I'd expect it to enhance any equipment. I don't have the experience. Tell me if my assumptions are wrong!

 

[Dr.Bass]

You may be mistaken. It may not always be so expensive to do the basic stuff in treating a room. Beyond a point the law of diminishing returns will inevitably set in and expenses rise relative to marginal benefit. Bhagwan's pictures give the impression of great expenses since the decor is very tasteful but all of it may not have been sonically relevant.

I am all for room treatment Gerry, especially cheap and effective ones, but I dont think Ajay's initial problem of monochromatic tones (not exacly but kind of) will be solved by this approach.

It is like my car lacks power but I am upgrading the tyres. It is not wrong and its benefits are also there but it will not solve the power problem..right ? After the initial fun of new tyres has died I will again look for power

 

[bhagwan]

After the initial fun of new tyres has died I will again look for power

Excellent !!
Apt Example;
Thanks.:clapping:

 

[Dr.Bass]

Sir,
When one needs to files ones tax returns - one goes to a Chartered Accountant.
When one needs to file a case in court - one goes to a Lawyer.
When one is unwell - one goes to a doctor.

In the same manner - when a room needs to be done - one has to engage the services of an 'acoustician'
Someone that has done his masters from here :-
Msc Audio &amp Acoustic Engineering | Masters Courses | University of Salford
Besides, has experience with audiophiles & houses..
:licklips:

I know, I agree and this is exactly what I am trying to bring out since the last one hour. Up to you Ajay...

 

[ajay124]

Bhagwan's visit helped to put many things into perspective. I was bored with music/hifi/life in general, for various reasons. The reason which pertains to hifi was, that sound from my system had plateaued at a level which I had outgrown, but I was unable to raise it to the next level. I was contemplating selling the amp, speakers and cables and replacing them with brands which I theoretically like. Brands like Accuphase, Mcintosh, Dynaudio, Sonus Faber and Thiel. I did not really consider the move as an upgrade. More of a sideways move with an upward bias. I did not have much conviction in what I was doing.

Talking to Bhagwan helped to clear up a lot of things.

First that It was not a good move to replace Bryston with Accuphase, or VA with Dynaudio without an audition. A blind call had worked for me when I bought Bryston/VA/Esoteric. I was a rookie when I bought them. Anything would have sounded good to me in 2010. My shortlist for amps in 2010 ranged from Cyrus, Primare, Arcam, Naim, Roksan Kandy, Musical Fidelity, Bryston, Plinius, Sim Moon and Accuphase! Rightly or wrongly, I now believe that midrange amps can take you till a particular level but amps like Bryston, Accuphase and Mcintosh are in a different league all together. Having had the privilege of using a Bryston pre/power for almost two years, I could be happy with an Accuphase or Mcintosh, but there was no way I could go back to Arcam or Cyrus. If I replaced the Brystons with something better it would be an expensive move. A move which does not makes sense until I actually hear something which I like better than Bryston. My speakers are very close to my heart. Even if I find better speakers parting with the VABBG's would be fraught with sadness, heartbreak and regret!

Second: Major or minor treatment of the room and a decent rack with thoroughly isolated and suspended shelf's would be huge upgrades in terms of boosting the sound quality. The basic room tweaks which Bhagwan recommended would not cost more than 3-4K.

Third: Upgrading to the next level of Transparent Audio. Buying decent power cords for the CDP/PRE/POWER AMP.

Four: Upgrading the preamp to a better tube/solid state pre amp from the likes of BAT/Audio Research/Alnic etc.

More to come. I have to rush for a boozathon at a nearby club. A rare event because I don't like the blended whiskies they stock. And I don't like their glasses, ice cubes, soda, over spiced snacks and sloppy service staff :sad:

 

[pdhanwada]

Bhagwan's visit helped to put many things into perspective. I was bored with music/hifi/life in general, for various reasons. The reason which pertains to hifi was, that sound from my system had plateaued at a level which I had outgrown, but I was unable to raise it to the next level. I was contemplating selling the amp, speakers and cables and replacing them with brands which I theoretically like. Brands like Accuphase, Mcintosh, Dynaudio, Sonus Faber and Thiel. I did not really consider the move as an upgrade. More of a sideways move with an upward bias. I did not have much conviction in what I was doing.

Talking to Bhagwan helped to clear up a lot of things.

First that It was not a good move to replace Bryston with Accuphase or VA with Dynaudio without an audition. A blind call had worked for me when I bought Bryston/VA/Esoteric. I was a rookie when I bought them. Anything would have sounded good to me in 2010. My shortlist for amps in 2010 ranged from Cyrus, Primare, Arcam, Naim, Roksan Kandy, Musical Fidelity, Bryston, Plinius, Sim Moon and Accuphase! Rightly or wrongly, I now believe that midrange amps can take you till a particular level but amps like Bryston, Accuphase and Mcintosh are in a different league all together. Having had the privilege of using a Bryston pre/power for almost two years I could be happy with an Accuphase or Mcintosh but there was no way I could go back to Arcam or Cyrus. If I replace the Brystons it would be an expensive move. A move which no longer makes sense until I actually hear something which I like better than Bryston. My speakers are very close to my heart. Even if I find better speakers and can afford to buy them, parting with the VABBG's would be fraught with sadness, heartbreak and regret!

Second: Major or minor treatment of the room and a decent rack with thoroughly isolated and suspended shelf's would be huge upgrades in terms of boosting the sound quality. The basic room tweaks which Bhagwan recommended would not cost more than 3-4K.

Third: Upgrading to the next level of Transparent Audio. Buying decent power cords for the CDP/PRE/POWER AMP.

Four: Upgrading the preamp tube/solid state to something from BAT/Audio. Research

More to come. I have to rush for a boozathon at a nearby club. A rare event because I don't like the blended whiskies they stock. And I don't like their glasses, ice cubes, soda, over spiced snacks and sloppy service staff :sad:

I certainly agree with Bhagwan. I would prefer the step 2 ahead of step 1 because of it being less expensive. Also we do have good DIY options provided you agree to go with rockwool/glasswool.

Bass traps make huge difference in sound. I am sure you will find big improvement in sound quality.

After that you can think about changing speakers.

Thanks
Pandu

 

[himadri]

I certainly agree with Bhagwan. I would prefer the step 2 ahead of step 1 because of it being less expensive. Also we do have good DIY options provided you agree to go with rockwool/glasswool.

Bass traps make huge difference in sound. I am sure you will find big improvement in sound quality.

After that you can think about changing speakers.

Thanks
Pandu

Hi
My rookie 2 cents about experiences in rooms / treatments/systems.
1)Handling the bass in smaller rooms helped in larger increments . My Pandu inspired DIY bass traps in 2 corners behind the speakers helped in that.
2)Power supply improvement provided the next bigger incremental benefit . (inspired by Myriad I have dispensed with stabilizers et. al and went directly to the grid).
These 2 measures helped me in repositioning the speakers in the room for better better tonality.
cheers

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

Respected Sir,

Listen to music & you will be in Heaven - I know I was - last evening - sublime experience it was @ home - will do so again @ 0800 [Drupad - Gundecha Bandu - Darshan / Sense Records.
Darshan - Gundecha Brothers

VOCAL -RAMAKANT GUNDECHA
VOCAL - UMAKANT GUNDECHA
PAKHAWAJ -AKHILESH GUNDECHA
TANPURA -KALPESH JANI
TANPURA -PRAVIN JANI

Raga Komal Rishabh Asavari

1. Alap - 18.13
2. Alap -Jor 8.11
3. Alap - Jhalla 17.00
4. Aai Khelan Ko Ho Faag Lalaso -Dhrupad- Chautaal (12 beats) 11.59
5. Aan Sunai Bansuri Kana Kana - Dhrupad - Sooltaal (10 beats) 7.13

This is Indian Classical - Reference Level Recording for me;

I had borrowed this recording from Bhagwan on Sunday. Indeed it is heaven. I have my speakers spaced 10 feet apart. The brothers come in at around 6 feet symmetical spacing, slightly above the speakers. I am playing on Foobar from my humble laptop into USB DAC, so plenty of upgrading to be done. Even so, very lifelike. At low volumes it seems like a private concert. At higher volumes one is transported to concert hall atmosphere. Very high quality recording, utterly magnificent. Thanks a million sir.

 

[bhagwan]

I had borrowed this recording from Bhagwan on Sunday. Very high quality recording, utterly magnificent. Thanks a million sir.

It was a pleasure;
Glad that music is taken & listened to - that is most important.
Let us share - the more we do, the better for all !
Enjoy !!
:clapping: