The effect of cables - A sane debate

In my very recent experience with Turntables, the low capacitance cables connection from the TT to the phono-preamp matters a lot. If the cable capacitance is high there will be a peaking resonance around 17KHz to 18KHz which could be audible as listening fatigue. For other source i dont find much difference due to interconnects IME.

Sir, It is good if analogue interconnects have the least capacitance, especially for longer runs to minimize roll off, especially at higher frequencies. The other important aspect is shielding to keep off interference from external sources and a reasonably good connector. Pure silver of copper is an individual choice.
 
In my very recent experience with Turntables, the low capacitance cables connection from the TT to the phono-preamp matters a lot. If the cable capacitance is high there will be a peaking resonance around 17KHz to 18KHz which could be audible as listening fatigue. For other source i dont find much difference due to interconnects IME.



1. Have you found a difference between one solid wire from amp to speakers vs Regular wires consisting of multiple fibers?

2. Open wires vs shielded speaker wires any differences observed?

I'm mainly looking for the accuracy of LF and Less Harsh HF sounds. Anybody else with experience can chip in with their views as well.
 
In my experience i have found that speaker cables and RCA interconnects do make a difference.

When i had started my hifi journey i did not believe in them and neither i was interested in the subject of cable/ capacitance/ geometry / single core / multistranded.

However after listening to my system for few months i felt some itch. Now ofcourse due to money involved i cannot ezperiment with changing speakers or amplifier or dac. The cheaper option (comparatively cheaper) remaining option was to change cables. Either speaker cable or rca cable.

Thats how i started experimenting and clearly observed the difference. Experimebts involved buying new branded cable, non branded cable, buying single core from local electrician shop, then experimeentung with enamelled wire of diiferent gauges, soldering myself, etc and each of them sounded differently. It might not be day n night difference but yes it's sufficient to give you a hunch/ feeling that something is different and something is not sounding natural. Sometimes you may like the change immediately and sometimes you will switch back to some previous configuration of cable realizing the previous one sounds more natural.

Compared to my initial days, i now take more interest in topics related to cables and words like inductance / geometry / shielded etc [emoji1]

Sent from Note5
 
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Sir, It is good if analogue interconnects have the least capacitance, especially for longer runs to minimize roll off, especially at higher frequencies. The other important aspect is shielding to keep off interference from external sources and a reasonably good connector. Pure silver of copper is an individual choice.

Strictly speaking, the MM phono preamp input must be loaded with the recommended resistance and capacitance loads. Each cartridge has a coil so this coil has inductance. MM cartridges have high number of windings compared to MC. More windings means higher inductance. Higher number of windings gives the cartridge higher voltage output, but unfortunately it comes with a downside - namely, it produces a resonance in the response. The higher the inductance, the lower the resonance frequency (sometimes as low as 8-10 KHz). Three things interact at the input stage of an MM phono preamp - the self inductance of the cartridge coil, the loading capacitor and resistor. They form a tank circuit. The capacitor value changes the resonance frequency produced by the inductor. The resistor changes the amplitude of the resonance peak. Higher C will move the peak frequency lower. Higher R
will increase peak amplitude.

C and R must be such that the overall response is as flat as possible upto 20 KHz. Most modern phono preamps stick to 47 kOhms for R and 220 pF for C. This makes life easy for the manufacturer but since cartridges come in so many varieties, it is almost impossible to optimise the response without ability to change R and C loading values. So we tend to use phono cables to somewhat tune the response. Not ideal but works to an extent.

On the other hand MC coils have such a small number of turns compared to MM (measured in uH whereas MMs are at least 300+ mH), that the inductance of MCs is small enough that their resonant peak invariably falls beyond 20 KHz. So it's not a bother and hence a C is not required to tame the resonance peak. So only R loading is necessary for MC.

The foregoing is only one half of the story. We also need to deal with the mechanical resonance of cantilever-stylus assembly (which is a subject in itself).

The mechanical and electrical resonance interact to produce the final response.

Sorry for the OT. The point being low capacitance cable is not always desirable (there are cartridges with recommended capacitance loading as high as 450-600 pF).

Back to cables....
 
1. Have you found a difference between one solid wire from amp to speakers vs Regular wires consisting of multiple fibers?

2. Open wires vs shielded speaker wires any differences observed?

I'm mainly looking for the accuracy of LF and Less Harsh HF sounds. Anybody else with experience can chip in with their views as well.

I measured cable capacitance using my LCR meter. There is one software were you can check the response by feeding the cartridge inductance, capacitance and resistance value. You can adjust the input impedance and capacitance in the software. An increase in capacitance cause a peaking response in the software and lowering the input capacitance caused a flat output. Also i was able to correlate this response with my findings.

I will post the link to this software later.
 
1. Have you found a difference between one solid wire from amp to speakers vs Regular wires consisting of multiple fibers?

I favour single solid core copper wire for speaker cables. They have a sweetness of tone that I find missing in multi stranded cables. Downside is there is a slight roll off in the highs.
 
Strictly speaking, the MM phono preamp input must be loaded with the recommended resistance and capacitance loads. Each cartridge has a coil so this coil has inductance. MM cartridges have high number of windings compared to MC. More windings means higher inductance. Higher number of windings gives the cartridge higher voltage output, but unfortunately it comes with a downside - namely, it produces a resonance in the response. The higher the inductance, the lower the resonance frequency (sometimes as low as 8-10 KHz). Three things interact at the input stage of an MM phono preamp - the self inductance of the cartridge coil, the loading capacitor and resistor. They form a tank circuit. The capacitor value changes the resonance frequency produced by the inductor. The resistor changes the amplitude of the resonance peak. Higher C will move the peak frequency lower. Higher R
will increase peak amplitude.

C and R must be such that the overall response is as flat as possible upto 20 KHz. Most modern phono preamps stick to 47 kOhms for R and 220 pF for C. This makes life easy for the manufacturer but since cartridges come in so many varieties, it is almost impossible to optimise the response without ability to change R and C loading values. So we tend to use phono cables to somewhat tune the response. Not ideal but works to an extent.

On the other hand MC coils have such a small number of turns compared to MM (measured in uH whereas MMs are at least 300+ mH), that the inductance of MCs is small enough that their resonant peak invariably falls beyond 20 KHz. So it's not a bother and hence a C is not required to tame the resonance peak. So only R loading is necessary for MC.

The foregoing is only one half of the story. We also need to deal with the mechanical resonance of cantilever-stylus assembly (which is a subject in itself).

The mechanical and electrical resonance interact to produce the final response.

Sorry for the OT. The point being low capacitance cable is not always desirable (there are cartridges with recommended capacitance loading as high as 450-600 pF).

Back to cables....

Using my LCR meter i measured the inductance, capacitance and resistance of my cartridge as below,

L = 490mH, C=136pf(including the cables), R = 755ohms.

I fed this values to the software and finally arrived at the conclusion that removing the input capacitor of 220pf was the best option for flat response in my TT. If i added an input capacitance of 220pf then this will add to the already 136pf capacitance from my cartridge and become 336pf which will lower the resonance peak to around 10KHz. My input resistance is now 47Kohms which is kind of ok, but the simulations is best with 51Kohms which i have not yet implemented.
 
Using my LCR meter i measured the inductance, capacitance and resistance of my cartridge as below,

L = 490mH, C=136pf(including the cables), R = 755ohms.

In my case, tonearm wire from headshell to base of tonearm + Belden 1855A low capacitance coaxial from base of tonearm to phono preamp input are 117 pF and 121 pF. Rounded off to 120 pF for convenience. To this I add selectable capacitance values (on rotary 2-pole 6-way switch) 10 pF, 50 pF, 100 pF, 150 pF, 220 pF, and 270 pF. I added similar switch for resistors of 22, 33, 47, 68, 82 and 100K.

BTW, where do you measure 755 Ohms?
 
In my case, tonearm wire from headshell to base of tonearm + Belden 1855A low capacitance coaxial from base of tonearm to phono preamp input are 117 pF and 121 pF. Rounded off to 120 pF for convenience. To this I add selectable capacitance values (on rotary 2-pole 6-way switch) 10 pF, 50 pF, 100 pF, 150 pF, 220 pF, and 270 pF. I added similar switch for resistors of 22, 33, 47, 68, 82 and 100K.

BTW, where do you measure 755 Ohms?

All measurements for L, C, R were made at the RC output of the TT that goes to the input of the phono pre-amp. One channel shows 755 ohms while the other shows around 750ohms.

The cartiridge + RC cable capacitance = 100pF. The phono wiring from the female RC to the phono pre-amp PCB itself is around 36pF which needs immediate replacement with a low capacitance type.
 
PCB itself is around 36pF which needs immediate replacement with a low capacitance type.

36 pF per metre or feet?

Belden 1855A is 16.3 pF/feet so for a meter + two RCA connectors capacitance comes around <70 pF. I think there are lower, but this is one of the lowest one can get in the market.
 
My experience of auditioning and hearing different sound components is very low still. I have just bought a Cardas Cross Speaker cable from a gentleman who gave me a great deal on it. The wire has opened my system and is retrieving so much more detail. Also i cannot turn the volume button beyond 50 to 60% after the addition of this cable to my system. I was earlier using the supra speaker cable which i think was 500 rs a meter. I have read quite a bit about cables only being able to do so much but my experience tells me otherwise. Very very happy with the addition of this cable and the results. I just though I'd share my two cents.
 
Strictly speaking, the MM phono preamp input must be loaded with the recommended resistance and capacitance loads.......

Back to cables....

@jls001 Back to capacitance:
The recommended capacitance on my Clearaudio Virtuoso cart is 100pf. As this value is likely to be achieved just by the tonearm wires and the interconnect( I haven't measured), should I set the additional load setting on the phono preamp to 0 or 100?

Thanks
 
@jls001 Back to capacitance:
The recommended capacitance on my Clearaudio Virtuoso cart is 100pf. As this value is likely to be achieved just by the tonearm wires and the interconnect( I haven't measured), should I set the additional load setting on the phono preamp to 0 or 100?

Thanks

If your Phono stage has a variable capacitance feature (which assuming you’ve set at 100 pf) it’s likely that you’re getting a thin anaemic Sound. To take the cables, tonearm wire into the picture, it would be advisable to experiment with 200 to 250 pf.
 
If your Phono stage has a variable capacitance feature (which assuming you’ve set at 100 pf) it’s likely that you’re getting a thin anaemic Sound. To take the cables, tonearm wire into the picture, it would be advisable to experiment with 200 to 250 pf.
Thanks, but I was thinking I ought to set it to 0, so that resultant capacitance on the cart is closer to the recommended value of 100pf
 
The two values have to be added together, not subtracted.

A. Cartridge requirement = 100 pf
B. Interconnect + tonearm = Say 100 pf
C. Capacitance of phono preamp without additional loading = 80pf
B + C = 180pf which is more than A (100pf), therefore no additional load required on the phono pre.

Is this not the way?

Thanks
 
I'm sorry, this is really OT, but in my setup:
Coil inductance = 0.40 H
Capacitance = Say, 200 pF
Load resistance = 47kOhm

This gives a resonant frequency of 25.2 kHz. What resonant frequency should one aim for?
 
@jls001 Back to capacitance:
The recommended capacitance on my Clearaudio Virtuoso cart is 100pf. As this value is likely to be achieved just by the tonearm wires and the interconnect( I haven't measured), should I set the additional load setting on the phono preamp to 0 or 100?

Thanks

Your cartridge is MM or MC?

Assuming it's MM, your ideal cap loading should be zero. BUT "no cap" at phono stage input makes it vulnerable to picking up interference and noise from surrounding.

Try both 0 and 100 and decide by ear (hoping there's no bad pickup at zero pF).

If your resonant freq is 25 something kHz for MM, it's way outside the audio band, so very good. If it's MC, it's rather low.
 
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