The effect of cables - A sane debate

After playing around with wires and cables for almost 6 months now, i have finally settled down with telephone wires for my interconnects. The reason for this selection is as per below and my experiments with different cables,

- Initially before this debate even began i use to use stock RCA cables that were available for around 150/- to 300/- bucks bought from Reliance Digital store. Needless to say they were basically PVC insulated cables and were unbranded or maybe Chinese branded. The sound if i remember now were more cluttered highs and mids and very loose bass. The PVC insulation has a Dielectric constant for 5.3+

- i later diy my interconnects using teflon cables and found them to be bright and very fast paced and due to the bright sound signature it was masking the lows significantly. Teflon has a dielectric constant of 2.1, but the silver coated copper wire was very edgy.

- later after discussion with FMs went with solid core copper wire of 26SWG for my IC and preamp internal wiring. This particular wire has potential and went with a twisted wire for my IC which was having an enamel coating. The enamel has a dielectric constant for around 4.5. The solid copper wire was a bit bright (less than Teflon though) but was little edgy on some recordings and could lead to listening fatigue for long listening sessions.

- After a bit research noted that dielectric constant of insulation closer to "Air" was the one to aim for. This lead me to cotton insulated wires, but unfortunately nothing was available. It could be diy with cotton sleeves. FM Jousha was of the opinion that cotton though good as a dielectric material, the solid copper wire insite them could not be completely insulated from air leading to formation of copper oxide (which has a dielectric constant of 18). The only wire that could be suitable was gold wires as their corrosion time is least but it would not be financially feasible. Silver also oxidizes to form silver oxide giving it a black tinge.

- After more reading could find a dielectric material polyethelene which has dielectric constant of 2.2 (close to teflon of 2.1) and is available in solid copper wires in telephone cables. this gave me one more opportunity to try the Polycab Telephone cables which was available in the local electric shop for 15/- bucks per meter for 2 pair wire. This wire has an internal insulation of polyethelene and outer insulation of PVC and a Nylon sheath in the inside of the outer insulation. I removed the PVC insulation and the Nylon sheath and used only the 0.4mm solid copper wire with Polyethelene wire for my interconnects.

Subjective listening reveals much balanced sound with less harshness and clutter in the mids and highs. Also the bass is much balanced and tight. I have yet to have long listening session with this wire and plan to do that tomorrow. The initial test was so encouraging that it tempted me to replace the preamp internal wiring (which was solid single core copper magnetic wire) to the polyethelene telephone wire.

Also telephone companies may be using this particular wires for their voice transfers for some particular reason which i am not aware. It could be better frequency response in the audio band, less losses, better permeabality and losses - who knows.

Also one more option is to use CAT5e or CAT6 data cables which also has polyethelene insulation (medium density). The telephone cables are high density polyethelene.

Thanks for looking.
 
Again, another case of how transparent your system is and how good your ear is to hear a difference. :D Silver of different brands in my experience always had more top end air than pure copper, but always it sounded a bit bodyless. silvers sound faster to decay. But copper despite being slower and lacking the sparkle of the silver, has more body towards midrange. i am only coming to a conclusion based on a small set of branded cables like audioquest, inakustik, oehlbach, silverlink and silent wire. Also I have tried out super cheap local copper wires and PC sata cable.

My generalisations can be wrong here, but thats just my experience. The similar was the results with interconnects too for me. Copper = fat, slow, rolled off. Silver = fast, extended, thin! Again like Preth30 mentioned synergy matters, So it cannot be concluded whether cable A is better than B in general, it can be just better in your system.
 
My experience is - Conductors are just first part of the story, the second important part is the insulator and it's dielectric constant. Even if you use the same solid copper wire, the insulator - cotton, PVC, Enameled, Teflon, polyethylene, rubber, silk etc will determine its final outcome.
 
@hari, I could go pick up gol nada (a.k.a. pyjama string:D) for you and send it across. It's made of unbleached cotton which is ideal as insulation.

Long before I made cotton insulated Duelund cables for friends and myself, I had experimented with both solid core silver and solid core copper in cotton tubing. The silver was something I ordered from a local jewellery shop who claimed it's "100% pure" silver. Of course I didn't believe him. I suspect it was more like 92.7% sterling silver. It was 24 AWG strands. Understandably, it didn't sound special. I have also borrowed a DIYed soft annealed silver cable of claimed 99.99% purity in an ugly Teflon tubing. It sounded completely unlistenable in my setup. I didn't like anything about its sound. I had also tried as IC CAT6 wire stripped of its Teflon insulation in cotton tubing, signal and ground wires lightly twisted after encasing in cotton tubing. Again nothing special.

It's good that at least you are finding good sound with telecom wires.

For preamp and amp internal small signal wiring I really like the sound of solid core copper but have now stopped using them because of iffy solder contacts that have given me lots of trouble.
 
I@ jls001 I have used a low noise professional cable which has cotton insulation after the foam which significantly impacts the final outcome. Also imo, the overall setup needs to be resolved to make a difference to your ears. Shall demo you when we meet next.
 
Re: Mega IC Shootout

Hi,
I have always refrained from putting my thoughts openly on any forum. For the benefit of all I would like to take the liberty with due permission and state the following:
Please treat these as notes to myself and more about my own journey and experiencs.


Some hard facts:
1) I have tried the mogami cables discussed in this thread in my setup. (I have used other ICs too in my setup)
2) The cables costed me $ and are not cheap
3) After listening in my setup I decided to keep them. I have 2 pairs. I sold some stuff so I could buy these! So it is definitely not my hallucination or mind :) I'm fairly honest with myself :)
4) I am lucky enough to have a fairly resolving and transparent setup so any change shines through immediately. The chain is pass B1 -> pass F5 -> DIY Philips Alnico drivers in open baffle (JE labs). I dont hear much difference if I use in my second setup which uses a vintage pioneer amp with smaller speakers. This is an important point to understand.
5) I prefer calling an ace of spade so without any preconceived notions and always prefer first hand listening at least when it comes to audio. (I have in the past gone with recommendations only to have lost a lot of time and money, so now its better to use the hear and decide yourself policy)
6) I have heard major difference due to interconnects. Yet to vitness similar magnitude of difference in speaker cable although its audible. As I haven't yet tried many.

My learnings?
Q. Is there snake Oil?
YES. I think majority of stuff I spent $$ on earlier was snake oil! These were well known and branded stuff. it simply did not do its intended job.

Q. does good sound always have to be expensive?
Not at all. In fact my current setup costs 1/4th of my shiny branded setup which costed me literally in lakhs!

Q. Are alternate solutions like DIY, pro audio equipment inferior, snake oil?
Majority are not! Majority are so good VFM as pros dont spend like crazy like audiophiles like me do :) you get what you pay for.
I have seen consistent pattern that many setups that have these implemented sound very very good than off the shelf or a randomly put together setup. Tweaking and finetuning can take it to new heights.

Q. Do cables make a difference?
There are different scenarios here:
1) Setup does not allow cables (especially ICs) to do their job. Already sound is screwed up so adding a transparent IC wont be much good.
2) person can not hear or analyse the difference. Either due to lack of active listening or ear not able to process thise frequencies (age,etc)
3) person hears/or doesn't hear the difference because of personal bias (belief engine??)

Out of all the challenges the biggest challenge I continue to face is how to be purely unbiased and "true to sound" (True to source ;) ) still learning. :)
The biggest audible rewards came from letting go of biases and perceptions and exploring and experimenting without any expectation or rejections. Its a trial and error which some people actually even enjoy!
Disclaimer: I'm not a believer nor a non believer but as an average person who is trying to get better audio fidelity in best VFM the best bet IMHO is to be open and use what works for me and ignore if It doesn't. If there is actually difference that not just single person but multiple people In their own indivudual setups report to be true then it is even more comforting.

Having said all this I completely welcome, whole heartedly accept and humbly respect everyone's individual opinions as we all are unique and that is beauty of life. Else the world would be black and white. I prefer it to have shades.

Cheers,
Njoy your music!
Moderator's note



Again the cable debate begins. Some other viewpoints from other forums for all to consider,

Audiophile cables, an interesting question.

Do 'High-End' Audio cables matter?

This will be a never ending debate for millenias.............

BTW, 2 weeks ago FM sprivous was at home with a 'Monster cable' costing Rs.1800/- . I really could not make out the difference between that and my Rs.28/- cable sound quality other than the cost.
Dear All,
My humble two pennies worth is that I have also been a Audio enthusiast for many decades,and was at times surprised to hear great audio from very simple set-ups.The reason simply cannot be fathomed.Moreover,I have heard systems where peple have spent fortunes sounding 'contipated'.I feel that there are a lot of 'ingredients' that matter,like source,speaker,amp matching,listening environment,speaker placement etc,apart from decent equipment.
Regards,
Rupy
 
My findings are,
-PVC insulated stranded wire IC are uneven in frequency response in audio band
- Teflon cables have more emphasis on the top end masking the lows.
- Single core enamled copper magnetic wire has midrange emphasis and a bit grrainy in the highs. Bass could be a bit boomy too but not conclusive.
- Single core copper polyethylene telephone cables look more balanced in the audio band and are more flat, without any over or de- emphasis.
 
Impressed with the telephone cables modification for my RCA interconnects and preamp internal wiring, i took the telephone cable modification to the next level by replacing my earlier 18SWG enameled solid copper wires with the telephone cables. Since these cables were thin 0.5mm each conductor with polyethylene insulator ( i removed the outer pvc installatation and the nylon sheath), i used 4 pairs (total of 8 cores) for the + and similar 4 pairs (total of 8 cores) for the - terminals. So a total of 16 cores for each channel. Took me almost 5 hours of work to strip, twist and lay the cables.

The measured R, L, C values of this diy cables as below,

Left speaker - around 4 meters of wire - R - 0.12 ohm, L - 8uH, C- 180pF
Right speaker - around 10 meters of wire - R -0.25 ohm, L - 14uH, C - 500pF

These cables have potential and sounds very neutral and balanced compared to the single core enameled copper wire which had some midrange emphasis. Now everything in the chain is the same wire / brand and quality with no ambiguity. The entire exercise costed me just 600/- rupees and 6 hours of my weekend time.

Here is the link to the polycab telephone cable http://polycab.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Telephone-wire-Leaflet.pdf
 
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Impressed with the telephone cables modification for my RCA interconnects and preamp internal wiring, i took the telephone cable modification to the next level by replacing my earlier 18SWG enameled solid copper wires with the telephone cables. Since these cables were thin 0.5mm each conductor with polyethylene insulator ( i removed the outer pvc installatation and the nylon sheath), i used 4 pairs (total of 8 cores) for the + and similar 4 pairs (total of 8 cores) for the - terminals. So a total of 16 cores for each channel. Took me almost 5 hours of work to strip, twist and lay the cables.

The measured R, L, C values of this diy cables as below,

Left speaker - around 4 meters of wire - R - 0.12 ohm, L - 8uH, C- 180pF
Right speaker - around 10 meters of wire - R -0.25 ohm, L - 14uH, C - 500pF

These cables have potential and sounds very neutral and balanced compared to the single core enameled copper wire which had some midrange emphasis. Now everything in the chain is the same wire / brand and quality with no ambiguity. The entire exercise costed me just 600/- rupees and 6 hours of my weekend time.

Here is the link to the polycab telephone cable http://polycab.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Telephone-wire-Leaflet.pdf
Pictures please. Any particular braid type?
 
Yogibear, just get the Duelund or Western Electric tinned copper 16 awg or 12 awg speaker cables. For ic get either Belden 8402 or Duelund 16 awg, 20 awg or 26 awg tinned copper.

You’ll be pretty much sorted

Guys with cables costing upwards of USD 2000 have replaced them with Belden, WE or Duelund.

I too use a combination of these

I think Hari is using eight individually insulated 24 awg single strands for each leg. In effect he gets a 15 awg cable. Try and use even thinner individuallly insulated strands to get an effective 15-16 awg. Will sound even more open. The Western Electric 16 awg is basically that. In its days it used to be used as a telephone wire across continents. Since it’s tinned copper, each strand is pretty much insulated.
 
Recently a friend lent me a pure silver cable (interconnect) with teflon insulation. A very open sound indeed.


IMG_20180821_105206.jpg
 
Its just like Biwiring speakers.ln fact l did try recently and result are warm mids,treble smoothens further.Thatswhy many prefer thick speaker cables than recommended for better soundstage.

The question is how thick to length. Would say 12awg be the max best for say a normal length of 3 meters and below.
 
Susceptible to oxidation. Long time useage may confirm that.

True...even copper is prone to oxidation though silver is more so.
I use a Belded tinned copper for speaker cables and the interconnects are also Belden made by Blue Jeans (no idea if that too is tinned copper).
 
Quite interesting.
Sir what differences do you hear in such an arrangement.

Hi Kannan,
I hear a distinct hardness in the sound. I think it is due to the new 1:2 RCA splitters. Will give it more hours and observe if the sound improves with burn in. The second pair of RCA cables are old and burned in. So is the second pair of speaker cables.

But first impressions are: upper highs sound very sweet and likable. Bass weight is reduced from before. There is a slight sense of smearing in the sound, making it lose its earlier pinpoint focus and sense of separation. There is also a distinct feeling that decay trails are shortened, making the music sound brittle and as if it's in a hurry. Lastly, volume knob needs to be increased by 2 notches for my usual SPL.
 
Kannan, BJC is not tinned copper. Which Belden tinned copper do you use for speaker cable? 9497?

16 awg WE tinned copper speaker cable should be fine for a 3 m run.
 
Ultimately the idea behind a good cable is to minimize capacitance for low level signal and resistance for speaker cables.
In either case the noise rejection is equally critical so insulation also matters.

However my approach is to minimize the noise to the max before it even enters the 1st equipment.
So I use an isolation transformer and a capacitance multiplier for any SMPS based power supply in the chain.
 
The question is how thick to length. Would say 12awg be the max best for say a normal length of 3 meters and below.
I tried 16 awg monoprice,18 awg falcon,14 awg audioquest and 12awg Supra ,also 12 awg dac cable.All were not more than 3 meter length.Thicker cable had bigger soundstage and better instrument feel than thinner cables.The article says to use parallel speaker cables .So thickers cables may equal that concept too.
 
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