The effect of cables - A sane debate
- Thread starter Hari Iyer
- Start date
Please go through this thread where Doug Schroeder himself confirmed that he tried between pre and post, but gave no further details.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/doug-schroeder-method-double-ic
Due to that caveat I read in the dagogo article, I tried it between source and buffer (preamp).
However, I don't think most reasonable well designed power amps would oscillate due to increased capacitance due to doubling of IC from buffer to power amp.
Speaker cable doubling was easy for me as I already had a spare speaker cable. Trying it out from source to buffer was an exercise in hearing how it changes the sound in my chain. Now that I'm happy, I'll probably extend the concept to the next logical progression, namely, buffer to power amp.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/doug-schroeder-method-double-ic
Due to that caveat I read in the dagogo article, I tried it between source and buffer (preamp).
However, I don't think most reasonable well designed power amps would oscillate due to increased capacitance due to doubling of IC from buffer to power amp.
Speaker cable doubling was easy for me as I already had a spare speaker cable. Trying it out from source to buffer was an exercise in hearing how it changes the sound in my chain. Now that I'm happy, I'll probably extend the concept to the next logical progression, namely, buffer to power amp.
I tried the Schroeder method yesterday again with the telephone cables, this time it was 3+3 cores for the + and - ( total of 6 cores per channel). This was done for the DAC to preamp and also preamp to power amp. There was significant improvement in detail and reduced harshness. No amplifier oscillation was noticed in my setup
The earlier foamed coaxial cable + cotton sleeve had a capacitance of 300pF, the single core telephone cable has a capacitance of 22pF and the 3+ 3 core cable has a capacitance of 95pF.
I will now try replace the preamp internal wiring too from single core to maybe 5 cores. Also planned is replacement in my Poweramp input cable from single to multiple cores.
The earlier foamed coaxial cable + cotton sleeve had a capacitance of 300pF, the single core telephone cable has a capacitance of 22pF and the 3+ 3 core cable has a capacitance of 95pF.
I will now try replace the preamp internal wiring too from single core to maybe 5 cores. Also planned is replacement in my Poweramp input cable from single to multiple cores.
Still can’t figure out why it should work. Capacitance increases, resistance decreases.
If you increase thickness, soundstage increases. Not surprised by that finding. I would be curious if someone compared doubling the gauge of ic to using Schroeder way of constructing an ic
If you increase thickness, soundstage increases. Not surprised by that finding. I would be curious if someone compared doubling the gauge of ic to using Schroeder way of constructing an ic
As per the original article doubling of the cable helps in not only reducing resistance, but also reduced self inductance and characteristic impedance. This allows for better transmission of signal from output of source to input of the driver without reflecting back. The crucial point is to have a matched characteristics impedance between source and driver
Examples of characteristics impedance matching is spdif coaxial 75 ohms cable,
300 ohm antenna cable during Black and white TV era using Balun transformer.
Matching of characteristics impedance helps in proper signal transfer from source to driver without losses. These losses are seen in the form of harshness, phase shift and jitter.
The only major down side of this is increased capacitance. Hence care should be taken to not go overboard and use too many cores else it will increase cable capacitance and the rolloff of highs begins to happen earlier.
It will be better to check the capacitance of the cable before you use them to know what to expect
Examples of characteristics impedance matching is spdif coaxial 75 ohms cable,
300 ohm antenna cable during Black and white TV era using Balun transformer.
Matching of characteristics impedance helps in proper signal transfer from source to driver without losses. These losses are seen in the form of harshness, phase shift and jitter.
The only major down side of this is increased capacitance. Hence care should be taken to not go overboard and use too many cores else it will increase cable capacitance and the rolloff of highs begins to happen earlier.
It will be better to check the capacitance of the cable before you use them to know what to expect
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Even Doug Schroeder, the gentleman who came up with the idea, doesn't know
Okay, so I gathered enough courage to double the cabling from buffer to power amp. I started off with very a low volume and closely observed anything unusual in power amp (heat build up on the power amp, funny sound from speakers, etc). As nothing unusual happened I gradually upped the volume. At my usual volume knob position, it was very loud. I had to turn it down 2 notches (stepped pot, so easy to note how much one had increased/decreased). I'm currently on my 15th track. Initially there was a roughness in the sound because the second IC between buffer and power amp is brand new. The 4 RCA splitters are also brand new.
After several tracks, the new characteristic came through. Much greater sense of presence, especially in the mids. Instruments and voices sounding much more textured and nuanced. I find it very musical too. Despite going down two notches in volume, I'm hearing much more info than before.
So it was not enough to double some part of the audio chain, it seems to work best with the entire chain doubled.
Ideally I would love to use the same cables for each link (don't know if it will be a further improvement) but unfortunately I don't have doubles, so I have to make do with whatever cables I have on hand.
If you have spare cables, this is certainly worth a try. I'm impressed with what it does to my sound.
I have a number of RCA baluns so that there is no need to use splitters.
Here trying an RCA with CAT 6 cable.
I have bunched all 4 cores pairs together for the signal and ground connections.
Also have bare Mogami 2549 to try the same.
Will report back the results.
For speakers I have 12awg twisted pair of Belden 8487 (tinned copper) from which I have removed the outer sleeve as recommended and a 12awg Klotz OFC to double up. This is really going to make the overall cable very thick.
Will report back the results
Here trying an RCA with CAT 6 cable.
I have bunched all 4 cores pairs together for the signal and ground connections.
Also have bare Mogami 2549 to try the same.
Will report back the results.
For speakers I have 12awg twisted pair of Belden 8487 (tinned copper) from which I have removed the outer sleeve as recommended and a 12awg Klotz OFC to double up. This is really going to make the overall cable very thick.
Will report back the results
IME, removing the outer pvc sleeve from the CAT6 cables will have significant impact on sound stage and tonal response. The pvc has a dielectric constant of around 5+. The PE has just 2.2. Try this too and report.
I agree sir, but it was a little thick and this was the only way to wire it. That is why I also made one with the Mogami.
Apart I have a pair of pure silver with teflon insulation, BJC (Belden), MX Reference and MPC Reference cables to compare with.
I tried both with CAT and Mogami.
Then compared with silver single interconnects.
No doubling of speaker cables though.
I preferred the single interconnects. The sound is more balanced and musical.
In dual connection I felt a little shift in instrument locations, slight reverb in highs which first actually sounded extended.
Mids are a little harder, a little grit.
Also a silent echo to the overall music somewhere deep into the background which is more felt that heard throughout.
The silver cables are though inherently superior to both CAT n the Mogami.
I will next try with splitters for comparison where I can employ similar cables
Yes sir...will fully remove the outer sleeve and try aswell. Will use a couple of tags to hold the wires in place
My guess is the poor quality of the balun is messing up the sound. The first four RCA splitters I purchased were really cheap ones. The contacts are chrome plated. There was a hard edge to the sound, and just like you I felt as if there was a slight echo or some sort of secondary sound. But despite all this the tonality of the mids and highs improved a lot. After I got gold plated MX splitters (Rs 90 per piece), there was absolutely no hardness and I could really hear the improvements brought about by the doubling of ICs.
If you plan to continue experimenting with CATx cable, you could simply solder doubled/tripled/etc leads directly on RCA connector. CATx wires are thin enough so I think you can easily insert even 3+3 wires into the barrel of the RCA. Splitters are needed when paralleling existing regular ICs.
I will get splitters and go with the better quality RCAs that I have. What I tried was with what I could salvage with what was in hand.
Bought much better quality RCA splitters (MX, gold plated contacts) and it sounds so much better than the cheap and nasty splitters I got earlier
No more hardness in the sound. In fact I hear a major improvement in sound stage width and some songs with wide stereo panning in the mastering are playing outside the speakers now. This is a new experience in my setup. Overall it's a very likable sound. Will allow more burn in of the splitters.
Congrats !
Could you please post some photos of RCA splitters and connections ?
You can get the splitter in Mercy Electronics. it is RCA male to 2 RCA female. You will need 4 of these (2 pairs) for each stage
They used to stock MX, but now I don't know.
You can buy MX though from Vinsun Agencies in Ritchie Street or the Joshi or Jothi guy (don't recall exactly though), I think the place where there used to be the Stereovision shop.
Spot on sir, I have used the reverse configuration with a generic cable in my car where I split the signal between midrange and tweeters from the same output and the output was abysmal.
The difference was glaring after I switched over to a Monster splitter cable that I imported from US.
I did not have a choice other than using wired splitters as the two inputs were on different amplifier boards separated by a distance. I was using the reverse configuration (RCA female to 2 RCA male). Same out put going to two amp inputs one actively driving the midrange and the other driving the tweeters with a capacitor in between.
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