Three Queries

[issigonis]

Its unfortunate but few hindi film music were not properly recorded/mastered on std. Systems so that any one frequency band was dominant in any track. Such tracks sound very bad on cds. However, such tracks sound better on vinyl even on mediocre systems viz a viz cds. And the gap widens with better systems.
As far as melody is concerned, if you havent heard lata rafi et al on vinyl, you aren t born yet.
Ps: if you need proof, get basant bahar lp and listen to pannalal ghosh blowing flute to lataji s croon mai piya teri tu mane ya na mane

>>>

Hmmm..that's not nice. In the matter of Hindustani classical records I've heard (unconfirmed) that the EMI and Polydor pressings were done in London and hence had better quality of (analogue) recording and cutting. Rabindra Sangeet also falls in the same category. Hope that is correct.

Does anyone have any feedback on the quality of pressings which came out of the HMV (aka Saregama) unit in Calcutta? In comparison to the pressings from HMV or Polydor London?

Regards

 

[malvai]

some of the pressings from India were quite good too!
I have a couple of Bismillah khan Lp's - both indian and foreign pressings and I hear no difference.

But in some cases, the difference is audible...

 

[venkatcr]

Such tracks sound very bad on cds. However, such tracks sound better on vinyl even on mediocre systems viz a viz cds.

I suppose this depends upon the care taken during transfer. If you listen to the 2004 version of Mughal-E-Azam on CD (CDF 130514, SNo. 8901112305149), RPG/SaReGaMa have done a super job. They have taken what was essentially a mono recording and converted it into superb stereo sound that goes very close to being three dimensional. When you listen to Rafi singing Ae Mohabbhat Zindabad, you can literally close your eyes and visualise the scene where Salim is going to be shot with a canon.

I also have over 65 CDs consisting of film songs recorded between 1950 and 1970. Called the 'Classic Revival', these have also been transferred quite well. In many of the songs, they have literally ripped the voice(s) alone, re-recorded the instruments, and remixed the tracks.

Unfortunately such recordings are rare. For some strange reason, RPG have stopped selling the Classic Revivals. Maybe people want the original recordings with all the scratch noises in place.

Cheers

 

[sumeetbagade]

Venkatcr,

i am sure there was a reason behind discontinuing the CLASSIC REVIVAL series of CDs by SaReGaMa.... the reason being that they were absolutely intolerable REMIXING of old recordings....

U r right when u say that they had "literally ripped the voice(s) alone, re-recorded the instruments, and remixed the tracks"

Thats like adding JHANKAAR BEATS to old songs...... the Bass, Treble and volume of the instruments playing in the background has been tampered with (increased).... the vocals are suppressed and some kind of ECHO EFFECT has been added.....

people who have heard these CDs would agree with me on this....

There also are a few GHAZAL CDs by Mehdi Hassan, where the same TRICK has been tried by SaReGaMa.....
its pathetic.....

 

[issigonis]

Venkatcr,

i am sure there was a reason behind discontinuing the CLASSIC REVIVAL series of CDs by SaReGaMa.... the reason being that they were absolutely intolerable REMIXING of old recordings....

U r right when u say that they had "literally ripped the voice(s) alone, re-recorded the instruments, and remixed the tracks"

Thats like adding JHANKAAR BEATS to old songs...... the Bass, Treble and volume of the instruments playing in the background has been tampered with (increased).... the vocals are suppressed and some kind of ECHO EFFECT has been added.....

people who have heard these CDs would agree with me on this....

There also are a few GHAZAL CDs by Mehdi Hassan, where the same TRICK has been tried by SaReGaMa.....
its pathetic.....

>>>

For the purist, fiddling with the instruments (apart from cleaning the 'noise') in the 'remixed' tracks is sacrilege. I would agree that it is not a good thing.

I would never listen to Geeta Dutt's magical voice in say one of the numbers of the film Anubhav, if the accompanying music has been 'enhanced', or to one of the 'new' thumris rendered by Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. It would take away the flavour and the charm.

Now if our studio heads could only clean the noise from the original analogue recordings, and nothing else!

Regards

 

[prem]

Absolutely agree with you guys. Will only listen to the original. Its not possible to remove the hiss and pops because these are all single track recordings and trying to remove the hiss ends up in removing some of the high frequencies. Which is why most of Saregama cds sound bad because they have tried to no noise the tracks.

 

[venkatcr]

I would never listen to Geeta Dutt's magical voice in say one of the numbers of the film Anubhav, if the accompanying music has been 'enhanced', or to one of the 'new' thumris rendered by Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. It would take away the flavour and the charm.

What little information I have, the there has been no enhancements or change of music. They have used the same instrumentalists that are being used by the film industry, and have rendered the background music faithfully. And this has been done only in some parts where the original recordings have become utterly useless.

Form many of the songs, I have also have the unaltered version. believe me, it is like listening to a tiny radio with a 2 Rupee speaker. The Classic Revival versions are far better, most importantly, the voices are very clear. The emotions in the voices are there, and I feel maintaining them is very important for our children.

At the end of the day, I suppose this is all a personal choice.

Cheers

 

[issigonis]

>>>

Seems there are two sets of information : one, that the music has been tinkered with/enhanced; two, that music has been 'filled in' wherever it had gone 'missing'.

I wouldn't know about this as I have not listened to these CDs, nor have I got all the records that are being discussed here.

My point is - if the music has been enhanced ( e.g., enhanced with an echo effect, or change of instruments such as use of drums instead of a tabla or some such thing), I am not in.

In fact I have a problem with listening to new vocalists rendering the songs( this is something personal and I simply can't get over with); which means I would rather listen to a Kishore Kumar rather than a new singer trying to mimic him. I don't know why, and this is purely played in the mind, but I lose interest in such new songs - instant turn off. Again, something deeply subjective and shouldn't be generalised.

Regards

 

[venkatcr]

In fact I have a problem with listening to new vocalists rendering the songs( this is something personal and I simply can't get over with); which means I would rather listen to a Kishore Kumar rather than a new singer trying to mimic him. I don't know why, and this is purely played in the mind, but I lose interest in such new songs - instant turn off. Again, something deeply subjective and shouldn't be generalised.

This is something I completely concur with, particularly in Hindi and Tamil film songs. One is so used to the voice, idiosyncrasies and, nuances of the songs, that it is literally impossible for someone else to recreate the same nuances. Also we hold singers like Rafi, Lata, MSV, and others in such high esteem that we consider the (re)singing of their songs as sacrilege, however well the new singer may try or deliver. Actually, if you had asked Rafi himself to re-sing the same song exactly the way it had been recorded, I am sure he would have found it near impossible.

Strangely this does not happen in English songs. Though I have heard some songs many times by a particular singer, I can happily listen to the same song being some other capable singer. I am talking about professional singers, not some idiot who tries to ape on a stage. For example, I have heard Tom Jones, of all people, singing some Beatles songs, and it is really quite good. It maybe because I like his voice so much.

Seems there are two sets of information : one, that the music has been tinkered with/enhanced; two, that music has been 'filled in' wherever it had gone 'missing'.

I wouldn't know about this as I have not listened to these CDs, nor have I got all the records that are being discussed here.

My point is - if the music has been enhanced ( e.g., enhanced with an echo effect, or change of instruments such as use of drums instead of a tabla or some such thing), I am not in.

I think you are missing what I am trying to say here. All I can say is listen to the 2004 recording of Mughal-E-Azam, and you will understand what I am talking about. In almost all of the Classic Revival, believe me, you really cannot make out any differences in the songs. If you are really interested, I can send you a few of the songs as FLAC files for your review.

Cheers

 

[sumeetbagade]

Following things done to ORIGINAL RECORDINGS in CLASSIC REVIVAL,

1. Unheard (new) pieces of music added in the beginning of the songs (between two songs).
2. Bass and Treble enhanced (jhankaar beats).
3. Volume of the INSTRUMENTS increased.
4. Volume of the singer suppressed (or so it seems as the background music is loud).
5. ECHO / SURROUND effect added.
6. ONLY Singers are original.

unbearable, unethical..

no question of being a purist or otherwise.....

 

[prem]

The reason Classics Revival series was launched was to fight the cover versions available on other labels. But it did not work out the way planned. Which is why you do not see it in the shelves.

 

[issigonis]

>>>

To get back to the topic , I intend to audition a Scheu, but that will happen in Bangalore. Let me see if I can make that happen soon.

My plan of going the completely valve way w.r.t the i. phonostage, ii. the line pre-amp and iii. the power amp is getting stronger day by day.

Will keep you posted of developments/discoveries/surprises.

Regards

 

[jls001]

>>>

My plan of going the completely valve way w.r.t the i. phonostage, ii. the line pre-amp and iii. the power amp is getting stronger day by day.

Will keep you posted of developments/discoveries/surprises.

Regards

I would suggest a solid-state phono pre instead of a tube phono pre, since the rest of your chain would be tubes. A solid state phono pre will take better care of lower and upper freq extremes.
Joshua

 

[issigonis]

>>>

Joshua,

Interesting suggestion. Have to check this out.

Thank you.

Any idea about the pros and cons of linear tracking vis-avis conventional tangential tracking- especially on the counts of sound reproduction, and maintenance?

Regards.

 

[jls001]

>>>

Joshua,

Interesting suggestion. Have to check this out.

Thank you.

Any idea about the pros and cons of linear tracking vis-avis conventional tangential tracking- especially on the counts of sound reproduction, and maintenance?

Regards.

Linear trackers have their fans, but more detractors I guess. If you can get hold of something like a Forsell, it would be vinyl Nirvana but a lesser model like a Sony PSX 800 would be as good (or bad, depending on your PoV) as comparable non-linear direct drives.
Joshua

 

[issigonis]

Linear trackers have their fans, but more detractors I guess. If you can get hold of something like a Forsell, it would be vinyl Nirvana but a lesser model like a Sony PSX 800 would be as good (or bad, depending on your PoV) as comparable non-linear direct drives.
Joshua

>>>

Joshua,

I went to the Forsell website; the turntable looks pricey.
There are a few turntable manufacturers who do do linear tracking tonearms - using Airtangent or similar air bearing technology. Bergmann is one of them, Nordic Reference is another.

The moot point is, with no presence in India, and with a miniscule support base of advocators, it is difficult for me to plunge - the initial price plus the TCO ( incl. maintenance costs in the event of a breakdown) might be a bit beyond reach.

One other disturbing point with some Indian distributors of turntables ( linear tracking or not) is the rejection of the idea of auditions. Without auditions, and lots of it, there is no way that as subjective a decision as the choice of a hi fi, can be taken.

Also, there could be the slight possibility of inflated pricing ( what with dealer pricing for India, customs duties, rebates, dealer margins playing each other), which is bad for potential buyers like us.

I hope to audition more and hope to select a system which sounds best.

By the way, do you have a thread here for your feedback on the system that you have? Cadence equipment is expensive, isn't it?

Regards

 

[jls001]

>>>

Joshua,

I went to the Forsell website; the turntable looks pricey.

I hope to audition more and hope to select a system which sounds best.

By the way, do you have a thread here for your feedback on the system that you have? Cadence equipment is expensive, isn't it?

Regards

The Forsell is a fancy TT, with air suspension technology that's supposed to work very well. I have a friend who foolishly gave it away. I have been asking him to get it back since the "giftee" is not using it, and willing to give it back. He currently runs a broken Sony PSX800 TT, another linear tracker, and keeps cribbing that he needs a new TT.

Auditioning can be tough as the volume for high-end TTs is so miniscule that dealers don't stock even demo pieces.

I have not done any formal write-up on my system. Probably I am not the right person to do it It ought to be done by someone else, with the understanding that my listening room is fairly limited. Also, all my single-ended interconnects (except pre to power) are home-brewed and not really up to the mark yet. Need to research some more and buy interconnects for TD124 to phono pre, phono pre to pre, CDP to pre, tape player to pre, tuner to pre. I'll have to skimp on the cables for tape and tuner but I would want the best I can afford for phono and CDP.

Joshua

 

[issigonis]

>>>

Joshua,

My trawling of the web tells me that Forsell was an innovation of the 90s and it still is a very good turntable. Ref : REFERENCE COMPONENTS-TURNTABLES

The list of good turntable manufacturers above the entry level, includes the following :

1. SME
2. Kuzma
3. Clear Audio
4. Scheu
5. Bergmann
6. Basis
7. Thorens
8. Spiral Groove
9. VPI
10. Verdier
11. Origin
12. Pro-Ject


apart from the stratospherically priced (and hence unattainable to most audiophiles), Rockport, Goldmund, Walker, SCJ, Avid and a few others.

Do we have any installations of Spiral Groove in India? Any exposure to its sound quality? How about Kuzma?

Regards

 

[issigonis]

>>>

Another turntable which is eliciting interest is the Bauer dps, a Teutonic design. It has (jointly) won the best analog source of the year 2010 award in Stereophile, with the Spiral Groove SG2 turntable.

You may check it out here : <I>Stereophile</I>'s Products of 2010 JOINT ANALOG SOURCE COMPONENTS OF THE YEAR | Stereophile.com

Regards

 

[mrunalrane]

hi to all
getting a old belt drive tt gives u a good sound quality
get a philips 242 is a entry level magnetic tt
no complicated circuit 2 samll belts get it easily
most rec people in the 70s,80s used this for rec in cassetes with a akai 39d deck. fantastic rec quality .getting a phono preamp built in is the best. any good transistorised
amp is easy to use less hazzle no more playing with the knobs no equaliser is recomended
for phono i felt best is sanui 101,217, 317 amp . upto to know i have used classic 700 cart & pin or shure m55ed
spk u can get a 4 ohms or 8 ohms depends on amp a 3 way spk will give a good result
another setup my friend had was a sansui 101 with technics sb cd 933 spk to good result
bye then have a nice time