True Audiophile

[prem]

Hi Thad E Ginathom

I agree most vinyl players romanticise the sound. But when you you hear a very good lp player, its different. I have owned several top end cd players. Mark Levinson, EAD, Esoteric. I have heard most of the top end cd players as also some top end computer audio. But let me tell you that a top end vinyl player beats all of them. I presently have an EMT which is more resolving, dynamic and transparent than any of the cd players i have owned. Which is probably why Arj who heard an EMT recently in Singapore, thought it was a bit analytical. I am sure the DCS stack will be more resolving than a EMT but that needs to be compared to a Continuum.

When we are comparing formats, there is no point comparing entry level and mid level stuff. Compare a top of the line cd player and a top end lp player. Thats when you understand the strengths and weakness of the medium. In fact Steve Hoffman who is one of the best mastering engineers around has gone on record saying that nothing sounds like the master tape. Vinyl is the closest, followed by cd, followed by sacd.

 

[ajay124]

this 'truth' about fidelity in hifi..what does it mean being true to?

moktan

We are in danger of drifting from the relatively chartered waters of sound engineering into the unchartered waters of philosophy!

But I am enjoying this thread. Good participation. Strong opinions. An Either/Or dilemma which will never be resolved. Far more interesting than the "Should I buy Sony, Samsung, LG ? " dilemma which so many folks seem to be absorbed with. As long as we can keep it amicable, interesting and informative, I feel we should let it roll

 

[prem]

When you listen to a live performance, the 5 things you notice are transparency, tone, body, dynamics and separation. Vinyl typically does tone and body very well whereas digital does transparency, dynamics and separation well. Which is why one typically has 2 camps. It depends on what floats your boat. At the top end, players pretty much do everything. But vinyl takes the edge because of the tone and timbre.

 

[ajay124]

prem

When it comes to tone, body, transparency, dynamics and separation do you think that the source has a leading role to play with the amp, speakers and cables being merely supporting actors? We seem to be attributing awesome powers to the source and ignoring the other components in the mix.

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay

I consider the source very important. For example, if the source is not giving the body, then people start adding tubes in the mix to get some perceived body. But i feel that approach is not correct. Because when trying to get the body you compromise somewhere else. Ideally, the source must try and put out everything. Otherwise you are trying to add something in the chain which is not there in the signal from the source.

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay

In the recent past you cleaned up your power and saw your system jump a notch in performance. Power is what your system sees first. Even before the audio signal. You could have lived with dirty power and tried to correct that some where down the chain. But wasn't it much simpler just cleaning it at the source itself?

 

[Dr.Bass]

Here in Singapore I had the opportunity to listen to some really good Vinyl setups. The way a high quality Vinyl setup can bring the performance into the room is totally beyond the audiophile discussions of soundstage and transparency. Coming from the likes of ATC and S-L I value and understand high-fidelity more than anything in music reproduction. Anyone who tells you Vinyl is more about romance has either not heard Vinyl in all its glory or just typing in what one has read else where. IMO Vinyl is about everything related to music reproduction, you name it (so is good digital BTW).

Come to think about it, digital is everywhere, most audiophiles would have heard some or the other good digital systems but how many have really heard good analogue systems ? If you look at the ratio you would be amazed. I will not be surprised if it is 500:1. The reason is also well known, Vinyl became an extremely niche thing in this hobby. It is like if I try to persue Reel-to-Reel today what is the scope ? So, with the lack of exposure it is very easy to dismiss, discard and make blanket statements. You really dont get to read/hear many informed articles on this topic.

There are many discussions around this on Audiogon and AA forums. There also you can see categories of people:

1. Who have tried both and preferred one over the other.
2. Who have tried both and like both for their individual virtues.
3. Who have not tried high end digital simply because they are in total love with their analogue collection and rig. These people dont go around bashing digital, all they say is it doesnt cut ice with them.
4. Who have hardly any experience with high quality analogue but forever ready to take on the debate of analogue vs digital and mostly ending up bashing analogue. This is the most common bunch BTW.

I respect the top 3...period.

 

[ajay124]

Hi Ajay

In the recent past you cleaned up your power and saw your system jump a notch in performance. Power is what your system sees first. Even before the audio signal. You could have lived with dirty power and tried to correct that some where down the chain. But wasn't it much simpler just cleaning it at the source itself?

prem

The addition of the online UPS and the Esoteric has greatly improved the sound. Therefore it is essential to get the source right. But ultimately it would be difficult to isolate the impact of only the source. I think that the majority of audiophiles would agree that a system is finally about the synergy between all the components. Not to forget the room acoustics, recording quality and ambient noise. Some of the good and bad all the posters on this thread are attributing to the source, may actually have been caused by some other component in the audio chain.

The performance of your EMT would change considerably if you tried out different solid state/tube amps or speakers with varying number of drivers, crossovers and technologies. The body and rich tonality which a system exhibits in a small room may vanish when the same system is moved to a bigger room or a room with different acoustic qualities.

 

[arj]

Here is another one:

Jadis Eurythmie II - YouTube

OT Warning: the speaker on this, the jadis Eurythmie is a dream speaker..
Would love to hear a Top end TT on this!!

 

[sidvee]

Though I am firmly entrenched in the digital camp a few years back I had a mid level analog setup consisting of the the Music Hall MMF9 table & sutherland phono. I would have to say that at the $4000 combo price(approx., as I vaguely remember the price) price point, it beat any CD player in a similar price range in all aspects except the pops and crackles part and usually a well cleaned record eliminated most of these as well. Of-course it was a PIA to clean records and more importantly maintain them that way so I ended up choosing digital as a convenience more than anything (and the remote control convenience as well). I still have about 70-80 prized LP's - as a hedge for the future:lol:
Cheers,
Sid

 

[malvai]

Here in Singapore I had the opportunity to listen to some really good Vinyl setups. The way a high quality Vinyl setup can bring the performance into the room is totally beyond the audiophile discussions of soundstage and transparency. Coming from the likes of ATC and S-L I value and you understand high-fidelity more than anything in music reproduction. Anyone who tells Vinyl is more about romance has either not heard Vinyl in all its glory or just typing in what one has read else where. IMO Vinyl is about everything related to music reproduction, you name it (so is good digital BTW).

Come to think about it, digital is everywhere, most audiophiles would have heard some or the other good digital systems but how many have really heard good analogue systems ? If you look at the ratio you would be amazed. I will not be surprised if it is 500:1. The reason is also well known, Vinyl became an extremely niche thing in this hobby. It is like if I try to persue Reel-to-Reel today what is the scope ? So, with the lack of exposure it is very easy to dismiss, discard and make blanket statements. You really dont get to read/hear many informed articles on this topic.

There are many discussions around this on Audiogon and AA forums. There also you can see categories of people:

1. Who have tried both and preferred one over the other.
2. Who have tried both and like both for their individual virtues.
3. Who have not tried high end digital simply because they are in total love with their analogue collection and rig. These people dont go around bashing digital, all they say is it doesnt cut ice with them.
4. Who have hardly any experience with high quality analogue but forever ready to take on the debate of analogue vs digital and mostly ending up bashing analogue. This is the most common bunch BTW.

I respect the top 3...period.

i am with you on every word you have written!

especially the words i have highlighted!

 

[stevieboy]

The way a high quality Vinyl setup can bring the performance into the room is totally beyond the audiophile discussions of soundstage and transparency.

Very well put Dr Bass. It simply transcends regular audio terms. My take is that the sheer involvement that vinyl brings is what gets vinyl aficionados into the game. I gave CD the best shot I could afford with a good DAC but it just lacked that emotion. Sure the bass became better than through just a CD player, more weight to the sound etc, but zilch involvement compared to even my worst LP. Vinyl simply has a 'body' to the music that to my ears CD just can't match. And on LPs that are cleaned well and played for some time, cereal noise and pops are non existent. I remember your surprise at Santhosh's house you were wondering where the crackling was

Regards

 

[Hiten]

But for pure faithfulness to the original signal, modern pro-quality digital wins hands down every time

Oh Yes! That's how ones approach should be. The very essence of this hobby. But converting some music to digital will loose its faithfulness.

It is easier to admit that you are wrong about something, than to stubbornly carry the load of ignorance for the rest of your life! .

 

[square_wave]

i am with you on every word you have written!

especially the words i have highlighted!

+++ to that.....completley agree with every word

 

[malvai]

somwhere on this thread i read arguments about the noise floor of LP's being higher than cd....

well here is an article that actually has comparisons (with graphs!), allow me paraphrase just one of the bits before I share the link to the entire article...

"We can see why statistics often "mislead". LP's noise floor is actually quite low over most of the spectrum, ranging from -84dB around 1kHz to -96dB for frequencies above 10kHz . In other words, the LP recording has a lower noise floor than the CD recording for the majority of the spectrum (frequencies above 2kHz ).

LP's surface noise, which is responsible for the poor dynamic range, is mainly concentrated below 500Hz where the noise level is around -50dB.

And this is for a mass-produced commercial LP, purchased second hand from a thrift store for around $1!"

"Conclusions

It appears that the vinylphile claims are not as outrageous as they seem: LPs do have a usable dynamic range far greater than the measured dynamic range would suggest, and LPs consistently have higher relative dynamics over digital formats. But it is also true that LPs have higher distortion levels which translate to ultrasonic frequency harmonics.

The question is: is the higher relative dynamics of LPs an indication of higher accuracy, or are LPs exaggerating transients and dynamics? I'm not sure, and I would welcome comments.

If LPs have higher distortion and are exaggerating dynamics, it may explain why the apparent "benefits" of LPs translate even into LP recordings, and potentially explain why LPs of digital recordings sound better than their CD equivalents."

The full article:

Dynamic Comparison of LPs vs CDs - Part 4 — Reviews and News from Audioholics

hope this helps!

 

[himadri]

Vinyl simply has a 'body' to the music that to my ears CD just can't match.

My exposure to high end modern vinyl rigs is limited, but my detailed and extended exposure to my friend's usher pre/power + MD2 with vintage Thorens as source and also my working class technics TT with the denon + Usher MD1 combo every time highlights what Stevie says - The body to the sound.

I miss that whenever we use the CD players, albeit the Denon/Marantz entry level stuff.

Cheers
Himadri

 

[venkatcr]

But converting some music to digital will loose its faithfulness.

I am little weary of words such as faithfullness, romance, etc. When we use such terms, we are looking at very subjective points that will never lead to any meaningful discussion. At this level, we are just a few steps away from getting into even greyer areas such as, "I can hear it, cant' you", "I have better ears than yours", etc.

As I said since I can come close to the original sine wave, the convenience of a digital system far outweighs the fullness, faithfullness, romance, or anything else I may be missing.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I would like to congratulate and thank all participants of this thread. Though each one of us have very strong views, the discussions have been very cordial, firm where needed, without getting on anyone's nerves, and no personal jibes.

I will be very happy if this thread enables a few people to make a decision which way to go - digital or analogue.

Let us keep all discussions like this on HFV.

Cheers

 

[prem]

I believe we should try and help each person maximise the potential in the format they are comfortable with rather than thrust a new format insisting its superior

 

[ajay124]

I would like to congratulate and thank all participants of this thread. Though each one of us have very strong views, the discussions have been very cordial, firm where needed, without getting on anyone's nerves, and no personal jibes.

I will be very happy if this thread enables a few people to make a decision which way to go - digital or analogue.

Let us keep all discussions like this on HFV.

Cheers

Yes. Hopefully it will remain cordial and provide some insights to forum members who have not commited themselves one way or the other. Vinyl obviously has a strong following on the forum. But I feel it is good that a small minority has raised the banner for digital music. All the opinions which have been voiced till now are subjective opinions, but hopefully these subjective opinions will be of some use to a newcomer.