Vinyl vs Digital?

[arj]

From what I know, the compression is due to loudness war and nothing to do with the format.

loudness war is primarily about the DR. its not about the format but about the target listener as I explained earlier.

However, one cannot transfer the same loudness to the vinyl compared to the cds technically.

I am not surei understood what you are intending to say here
Loudness war is about compression .its when the highest amplitudes and reduced and lowest are pumped up so the DR is reduced. due to this the recording can be made at a higher level of course it can be transferred even if compressed since the DR is low . may be at a lower gain but since you have an amp to pump it up it should not matter.

If you take CDs by Decca or chesky they retain the DR and they really sound good. but the vinyls are no slouch either but if you already have one you dont need the other,

 

[ajuvignesh]

loudness war is primarily about the DR. its not about the format but about the target listener as I explained earlier.


I am not surei understood what you are intending to say here
Loudness war is about compression .its when the highest amplitudes and reduced and lowest are pumped up so the DR is reduced. due to this the recording can be made at a higher level of course it can be transferred even if compressed since the DR is low . may be at a lower gain but since you have an amp to pump it up it should not matter.

If you take CDs by Decca or chesky they retain the DR and they really sound good. but the vinyls are no slouch either but if you already have one you dont need the other,

This is what AI's reply to the query.

"No, the same level of compression used for CDs generally
cannot be set to vinyl records due to the physical and technical limitations of the vinyl format.
CDs have a much wider potential dynamic range (the difference between the quietest and loudest sounds) and can handle the "hyper-compressed" sound often found in modern recordings, a result of the "loudness war" in mastering. Vinyl, being an analog and mechanical medium, has significant physical limitations that require different mastering techniques to ensure the record is playable on a variety of turntables without skipping or distortion.

A heavily compressed signal with high, consistent volume levels would require deep and wide grooves on a vinyl record. This can cause the stylus to jump grooves (skipping) or the grooves to cut into one another.

The main reason a vinyl version of an album might sound "better" to some listeners is often that it was mastered with less compression (more dynamic range) by choice, as engineers tailor the audio specifically to the medium's capabilities and perceived audiophile preferences.

Attempting to put the exact same, highly compressed CD master onto vinyl would likely result in an unplayable or very poor-sounding record."

 

[arj]

This is what AI's reply to the query.

"No, the same level of compression used for CDs generally
cannot be set to vinyl records due to the physical and technical limitations of the vinyl format.
CDs have a much wider potential dynamic range (the difference between the quietest and loudest sounds) and can handle the "hyper-compressed" sound often found in modern recordings, a result of the "loudness war" in mastering. Vinyl, being an analog and mechanical medium, has significant physical limitations that require different mastering techniques to ensure the record is playable on a variety of turntables without skipping or distortion.

A heavily compressed signal with high, consistent volume levels would require deep and wide grooves on a vinyl record. This can cause the stylus to jump grooves (skipping) or the grooves to cut into one another.

The main reason a vinyl version of an album might sound "better" to some listeners is often that it was mastered with less compression (more dynamic range) by choice, as engineers tailor the audio specifically to the medium's capabilities and perceived audiophile preferences.

Attempting to put the exact same, highly compressed CD master onto vinyl would likely result in an unplayable or very poor-sounding record."

The CD master has to be converted to a vinyl master anyway via equalization as is any other master if done specifically for vinyl

AI can be AI-AI Yo if not controlled . it always tries to please the person who asked the question.

Try using the following Prompt
Assume You are a seasoned mastering engineer who's worked with both CD and vinyl for 15 years .
Situation: I have a CD master that's already compressed and I need to cut it to vinyl. I will get this Eq'd for Vinyl . I am willing to live with any of the compromises due to this.
Can you tell me if this is possible ?


In your AI response the following is the Key

The main reason a vinyl version of an album might sound "better" to some listeners is often that it was mastered with less compression (more dynamic range) by choice, as engineers tailor the audio specifically to the medium's capabilities and perceived audiophile preferences.

This is the reason, to the OG question of why Vinyls sound better. it is not the medium but the mastering and the subsequent mastering /Eq of a CD master to make ma vinyl master only dumbs it down further but can be same or worse depending on the mastering engineers skill
If it even sounds better, its probably because the TT-Cart-Phono is doing a better job than the cdp.

..and also because they see that folks using vinyls have a higher expectation from the vinyl

 

[ajuvignesh]

Try using the following Prompt
Assume You are a seasoned mastering engineer who's worked with both CD and vinyl for 15 years .
Situation: I have a CD master that's already compressed and I need to cut it to vinyl. I will get this Eq'd for Vinyl . I am willing to live with any of the compromises due to this.
Can you tell me if this is possible ?

There is no reason the highly compressed cd master cannot be cut into vinyl. when played back, it will be distorted, in worst case, there will be needle skipping. I will not listen to that.

In one of the videos of PS audio, Paul clearly mentioned that expanders have to be used to lift some of the compression to safely transfer the digital master with high compression to a vinyl. And hence, vinyl master has a life to it.

I modified the prompt slightly as below.

consider yourself as a mastering engineer with 15 years of experience. Do you think a highly compressed cd can be transferred to a vinyl with the same compression?

The answer is,

No. A highly compressed CD master cannot be transferred to vinyl with the same compression without causing major issues. Vinyl physically cannot handle the same loudness, limiting, and clipping that a “loudness war” CD master contains.

Why the same compression cannot be used on vinyl​

1. Vinyl has strict physical limits

A vinyl cutter head cannot cut extremely hot, brick-walled audio.

If you try, you’ll run into:

• Groove distortion
• Inner-groove distortion
• Skipping
• Overheated cutter head
• Sibilance and high-frequency breakup

What sounds “loud but acceptable” on a CD can be un-cuttable on vinyl.

---

2. CD masters rely on brickwall limiting

CD masters often use:

• Heavy bus compression
• 5–10 dB of brickwall limiting
• Peaks shaved to near-zero dynamic range

Vinyl needs transient space to move the stylus. If everything is squashed, the stylus can’t track the groove cleanly.

3. Vinyl mastering requires different EQ and dynamics​

A vinyl pre-master usually gets:

• Less limiting (often none at all)
• Lower RMS loudness (e.g., –16 to –20 LUFS, compared to –8 to –6 on CDs)
• Controlled low end (mono below ~120 Hz)
• Tamed sibilance
• Gentler high frequencies

In other words: vinyl needs headroom.

4. Many pressing plants reject loud digital CD masters

A plant or cutting engineer will often request:

“Please send the uncompressed version, not the CD master.”

Because they know they cannot cut a hyper-compressed master safely.

So how is modern loud music still released on vinyl?

Because engineers create a separate vinyl master, even if the marketing claims “same master as digital.”

This alternate vinyl pre-master:

• Keeps EQ/tonality close
• Keeps dynamics usable on vinyl
• Avoids destructive limiting
• Reduces sub-bass energy

This gives the illusion of the same master, but technically it’s not.

Bottom line

A highly compressed CD master should not be directly transferred to vinyl.

A vinyl version must be re-mastered or at least modified to meet the format’s mechanical limits.

If someone insists on cutting the CD master, the vinyl will:

• Sound worse
• Distort
• Possibly skip
• Be rejected by the cutting engineer

So, no — vinyl cannot reproduce the same level of compression that a CD can handle.

 

[reubensm]

I have another twist to the debate and a factor which is also fiercely debated during Vinyl vs Digital debates, which is the genre of music one listens to. I have personally preferred Digital for listening to my heavy metal and hard rock collection. Vinyl just sounds too warm and lazy and lacks delivering the important thrills expected from the listening experience, by fans of these genres - speed, low frequency presence, loudness and fury. But I use Vinyl to listen to classic rock like Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Blue Cheer, Steppenwolf, Uriah Heep, Queen, etc as the expectations that I have from the sound signature, are different

 

[arj]

As i said new vinyls are not good enough. I guess this point is clear ?

I know whats done with the new vinyls and I can clearly hear it as can so many others so really dont want to get on a on "your AI vs Mine" where answers change depending on the prompt and which LLM you use.

 

[ajuvignesh]

As i said new vinyls are not good enough. I guess this point is clear ?

I know whats done with the new vinyls and I can clearly hear it as can so many others so really dont want to get on a on "your AI vs Mine" where answers change depending on the prompt and which LLM you use.

I am not telling whether the new vinyl is good or not. Thats simply based on the recording, mixing and mastering.
The point is the same compressed song that is mastered specifically for loudness war cannot be transferred to a vinyl as it is without distortion and other artefacts. The dynamic range has to be expanded. As an audio engineer I tried my best to explain you why it is not done in the industry. Its up to you to take it or leave it.

Ai cannot spit everything by itself. It will get the data already on the internet anyway.
I rest my case here.

 

[arj]

The point is the same compressed song that is mastered specifically for loudness war cannot be transferred to a vinyl as it is without distortion and other artefacts. The dynamic range has to be expanded. As an audio engineer I tried my best to explain you why it is not done in the industry. Its up to you to take it or leave it.

I did not know this is I always as I always assumed EQ for mastering includes DR expansion as well. So I stand corrected. BTW if you had mentioned you are an Audio engineer I would have asked you more ( note to myslef !)

In that case the newer vinyls are not really from the cd Master but from another master which was used to make CDs with DR and also vinyls which were wrongly mastered ?