What do i need?-Requirement Audio stereo music only

[venkatcr]

my dvd player has an optical out and a coaxial out
can someone enlighten me as to which is used when and where with some examples Also what exactly are these outputs.is one better than the other?

Magma, a digital coaxial and a optical cable are both used to carry multi- channel audio signals from a source such as the DVD Player to the amplifier. Since they carry digital signals, the digital to analog conversion is to be done by the amplifier such as the AVR.

For short runs, both give nearly identical performances. Optical is a bit more difficult to maintain as the cables cannot be bent very sharply and have to be carried from one unit to another using gentle bends.

Digital coaxial cables have the standard RCA type of connectors but are made with better quality cables, shielding, and connectors.

As I said you can use either of them. If you read AVR Connectivity it has all the details.

Cheers

 

[dinyaar]

my dvd player has an optical out and a coaxial out

can someone enlighten me as to which is used when and where with some examples
Also what exactly are these outputs.is one better than the other?

Hi Ali,
When u are connecting the DVD to an integrated amp basically u just use the ANALOG AUDIO OUT. These are the red/white RCA outputs and connect them to the CD LINE IN in your amp with a 2 pin to 2 pin RCA interlink.
Please dont go looking for a new budget DVD player (3/5K) for improved stereo just stick to your old sony and buy a decent cdp at a later date.
Rgds

 

[asliarun]

Magma, sorry, I didn't mean to derail your thread. In fact, my earlier post was triggered by the fact that you were also initially tossing between a DVD player and a dedicated CDP, and I wanted to add my thoughts on the value for money that a CDP will give you. The only thing is that I was trying to do a technical analysis instead of analysis based on experience. The one thing I can add of use to you is that really old DVD players had relatively primitive circuitry to handle DAC and error correction/skipping.

@thevortex, thanks, I did realize that there was a S/N difference (90 vs 105/110db), but wanted to know how much of a difference it made. For example, many mid-hifi CD players and amplifiers have S/N ratios in the 90-95db range as well (CA Azur 340C CDP - 92db, CA Azur 540C CDP - 95db using 24-bit/192kHz). While I haven't listened to these CD players, I'm sure that technical analysis has its merits as I'm sure that high fidelity audio is based on technical fundamentals, which I'm trying (and struggling) to understand. At least based on my initial analysis, I can come up with a semi-firm conclusion that there does not seem to be too much difference between the entry models of high end audio manufacturers and run-of-the-mill DVD players. However, the mid-range and upwards models of high end audio manufacturers suddenly start featuring much better components and technology than their entry level cousins. Again, please do not take offense at what I'm trying to say here as well

And yes, I have listened to a good "separates" system that was driven off a Sony Discman and for what its worth, I thought the sound was really good. But then, quite frankly, I haven't auditioned enough systems and components to have a trained ear, and since I heard it at a friend's place, I didn't get to do a side-by-side comparison as well.

@Asit, yes, you're right that specs can be misleading especially when taken out of context or when solely relied on. However, it does help us a great deal in eliminating the obvious bad deals, so that our auditioning efforts are focused on only those audio components that give us the best value for money within our budget. For example, I was surprised to find out that the technology and specification of a dedicated CDP like CA Azur 540C is actually almost the same as a Philips DVD player! Of course, most of the other good CDPs have much better specs and technical implementation.

Regarding your comments about investing in a good source, of course, I completely agree with you. My contention was that CD technology has actually matured to such an extent that even cheapo players are providing very good performance (good performance being subjective of course). Basically, CD technology has become commoditized. This is also helped by the fact that CD is a digital source as opposed to an analog source such as tape or LP. For example, most good high-end tape decks and LP players had an S/N ratio of 60db! With Dolby B and C NR, the good tape players managed to increase it to 70-75db, which is still much poorer compared to a cheapo DVD player.

 

[thevortex]

Asilarun - instead of answering some of the questions you have raised I would only urge you to go listen to some music on some of these CD players you have mentioned and then replace the CD player with your choice entry level DVD player and share with us the difference.

Not all specifications of these players are out there as common knowledge - that is something to be noted. For example the reading technology used by these drives itself is completely different. All these can and do contribute to the difference in sound quality.

Again only an audition will help clarify this for you. Good luck with it.

 

[neo]

+1 with vortex

 

[asliarun]

Point taken about the sound audition.

I wasn't trying to say that technical analysis completely replaces an audition. However, I strongly feel that technical fundamentals and analysis gives us bias-free facts (unless the manufacturer has Satyam's ethics!) that we simply cannot get from our personal audtions or from the anecdotal evidence of others. For example, the way a speaker, amplifier, or source sounds in a demo-room will obviously sound very different from the way it will sound in my room. Combine this with the fact that most demos will invariably use different components from the one that we are assembling/upgrading, even our experiential analysis cannot be a perfect benchmark. (Of course, nor is technical analysis by any means).

Regarding the drive, if we use the analogy of playing mp3 music on a computer or on an iPod, will the quality of music be affected in any way by the RPM speed of the hard drive or will it make any difference if the mp3 player uses Flash RAM instead of a hard drive (in terms of music quality)? No, because the source is digital and not analog, and the spindle/drive mechanism usually has a minimal impact on music quality, at best. The music quality is only affected by the bitrate or sampling rate at which the music was digitized, and the quality of the DAC that converts the digital signal back into analog. This is because the music is being converted from analog-digital-analog, and this is a lossy and noisy conversion.

IMHO, the only way drive technology should matter in a hard drive or a CD drive is if the drive itself introduces some noise, and to my knowledge, drive noise is not really a problem even in cheap DVD players. By that logic, the best digital source should be a USB drive since it has no moving parts at all!

 

[Asit]

Let me stress once again: beyond a point specs do not have any meaning. I have already explained in detail in my previous post and others also have tried . Specs may mean something when one is making a detailed measurement under varied conditions to produce very detailed specs and then one needs also to be technically very proficient to understand these specs and conclude. The liitle specs that are usually contained in user manuals CANNOT lead anybody to any correct conclusion. In that case one may conclude that a 5K DVDP has the same capability of a Primare or Rega CDP.

Let me give an example of a more detailed spec. In amp tests, one usually would see a response of the amp with input of a single tone, let's say at 1KHz. The output from the amp will produce the 1 KHz signal (amplified) and also (usually) some low harmonics of that. Now if the person looks at this has no technical knowledge of this, how would he know whether a second harmonics is preferable or a third harmonics. However, these specs are not provided in the user manuals. But my point is, unless we are talking about more detailed specs and then have the knowhow to interpret these specs, it does not make much sense to talk about specs and decide in favor or against some equipment based on a very minimal set of specs that are usually seen in brochures or even user manuals.

In the end, I have a question: Yes, it is agreed that with changing accompanying equipments, and also with room conditions, audition results would change. But no matter what is done, is it likely that a 5K DVDP will ever sound better than a 25K CDP (let alone a 1L CDP)? From my own experience I would say, it is very unlikely, if not impossible.

Of course, the auditions need to be done with some common sense, with as much similarity of the accompanying equipments as possible. Also it is needless to say that one would NOT test the capabilities of 2.5L Plinius amp and a matching CDP on a 12K Wharfdale Diamond 9.1 speakers.

So, please, let us not dwell on this specs issue for too long. Let us listen to music on the equipments and decide, because apart from anything else, this is also a bit subjective, everybody's preference for sound is a bit different. This is the only time-tested method I know and I have no doubt most others would agree.

 

[asliarun]

Thank you, Cranky and Asit, for your detailed and patient replies! I have learnt a lot from this thread and from your replies.

 

[venkatcr]

Of course, the auditions need to be done with some common sense, with as much similarity of the accompanying equipments as possible. Also it is needless to say that one would NOT test the capabilities of 2.5L Plinius amp and a matching CDP on a 12K Wharfdale Diamond 9.1 speakers.

I don't want to prolong this debate, but I must mention one experience I have had in this regard. In the first AV Max show in Mumbai, the Cooper brothers were demonstrating B&W's DM303 - a small bookshelves pair costing some 15,000. These were connected to equipment worth maybe upwards of 15 to 20 lakhs including digital equipment from Wadia and source and amplifier of matching price/capabilities. I just could not believe the way the DM303 performed. The sound that came out was the sweetest and most accurate I have ever heard. In particular, I was playing a CD of a friend of mine called OS Arun. He sings a lot of Bhajans in Tamil as well as in Hindi. I was telling the demo people that I could have sworn Arun was standing next to me and singing. The only other place I ever felt that was in Audire in Coimbatore.

As I had written elsewhere in this forum, the DM303 were some of the best bookshelves I have ever heard in my life. The second day i went, after a bit of burning in, they sounded even better. The CDs I was playing actually attracted a large crowd and I had a few of my CDs stolen in all the hulla bulla. The power of the sound from the DM303 were good enough to attract people from the hall and other stalls outside.

You will be surprised what some of these budget equipment can do. Not all. But there are some units that come now and then that are simply magical in their performance. I also suspect that the DM303 may not have performed so well with equipment of lesser caliber.

Cheers

 

[Asit]

But venkat, the question is, based on that particular experience, can you draw a general conclusion? The discussion here is not on budget equipments vs more expensive equipments. Its is about how much importance should we give to the minimum specs given at brochures? Can one draw conclusions from specs alone.

The second point is: the experience that you described was also obtained from actual auditioning, not from looking at specs.

The third point is: How do you know that these 15-20 Lakh electronics would not sound even better on a 'matching' set of speakers, however little better, keeping in mind the law of diminishing returns with more expensive audio gear?

The fourth point is: .... No I don't have any more, just kidding!!

 

[thevortex]

Venkat does have a point. But in my opinion it is more of an exception than a point. I have heard the same sort of opinions said about the PSB Alpha B1. That it does not get shamed even if it is paired with equipment costing 1000s of dollars more than its own price. That is certainly a rare quality and not something generic.

And Asilarun - please consider that the DVD players need to check for a variety of formats that are playable and the head's reading mechanism itself is completely different from that of a decent CD Player. CD Players only have to concern themselves with one format. As a nod to modernization, some CD players are now reading MP3s but those are again not very common.

Another thing - not every technical specification out there in the internet gives you the clearest picture of what goes inside the equipment. For example there could be a DAC or a soundcard which says that it uses so and so Burr Brown DAC or so and so Cirrus Logic DAC for its digital to analog conversion. But that does not intrinsically mean that this piece of equipment would sound better than or even as good as a receiver or an integrated amp using the same model of DAC! As Cranky has said the S/N ratio is but one small component when it comes to specifications. There is a lot more where that came from. And the manufactuers' info published is not in any way conclusive.

Take an example of speakers's frequency range numbers. There could be speakers which would be rated for frequencies from 30Hz to 30 Khz. Now does every manufacturer publish the (+/-) 3db or (+/-) 6db figure? That is what will tell you whether the bass output from the speaker will really be audible at low to medium volumes or not.

This is just one example of course.

 

[venkatcr]

But venkat, the question is, based on that particular experience, can you draw a general conclusion? The discussion here is not on budget equipments vs more expensive equipments. Its is about how much importance should we give to the minimum specs given at brochures? Can one draw conclusions from specs alone.

The second point is: the experience that you described was also obtained from actual auditioning, not from looking at specs.

The third point is: How do you know that these 15-20 Lakh electronics would not sound even better on a 'matching' set of speakers, however little better, keeping in mind the law of diminishing returns with more expensive audio gear?

The fourth point is: .... No I don't have any more, just kidding!!

Asit, I completely agree with you.

Speakers are a strange creature, and speakers such as B&W DM303 and the Alpha B1s are more of an exception than a rule. In the case of the 300 series, B&W had brought down a fair bit of technology from their reference 800 series. Not well known, but the DM303 had an elder sibling called the DM309. A diminutive floor stander, you should hear the bass these speakers could pump out. It was phenomenal. I think B&W realised they were killing their silver and golden gooses, and quickly shut down the 300 series. Similarly Sony had brought out a set of speakers that were exceptionally good. One of our members has/had a set, and he has modded it a fair bit to deliver great sound. I had heard these speakers once in a Sony showroom after reading about it. Could not believe the sound I was getting from a pair of speakers that cost some 10K.

But electronics are a different picture altogether. Focussed and expensive equipment do provide much better sound and video than budget equipment can ever do. It is the choice of capacitors, power supplies, transistors, circuit, the drive mechanism, and umpteen other things that all come together to deliver better results. I have even heard of people getting better sound by changing the fuse inside. Sharath of Audire was telling me how darTZeel and FirstWatt use boards that are just a few microns thick, and how Deltraz (of darTZeel) will choose every component carefully to enhance the sonic signature.

I have, as I am sure many have, heard this myself. My Oppo 983 is no slouch when it comes to playing a Redbook CD. But beyond a certain level it easily loses out to good CDPs. Similarly though it has excellent specs, the Pioneer 610 always delivers music through a thin haze that is easily audible. The same amplifier, the same cables, the same speakers open up when you use a decent CDP.

Cheers

 

[sud98]

Venkat,

How does the Oppo 980H compare, its a more than decent dvd player and supposedly has excellent audio capabilities?

-Sudhir

 

[venkatcr]

How does the Oppo 980H compare, its a more than decent dvd player and supposedly has excellent audio capabilities?

The 980 and 983 both have the same audio circuitry. At home I am using the 983 more as a CD Player, and to play only original DVDs. All rented DVDs are played on the Pioneer.

To give you a very rough analogy, for music from a Redbook CD, the 983 or 980 will perform as well as say a CA 540C. Starting from the 640C, CD players of that caliber and above will beat the Oppo players as far as regular Redbook CD is concerned.

Of course the Oppo players have the advantage of not only playing CD and DVDs, they also play DVD-Audio and SACDs.

When you use a universal DVD Player to play music, there is always a compromise. Remember a CDP has simpler circuitry and a laser system that is optimised to read only about 800MB of data. A DVD Player on the other hand has more complex circuitry to read CD and DVDs. In addition they have to decode multiple audio and video signals. And they have to be of low cost. All these leads to a compromise or two somewhere. Since the primary objective is to play movies, that is optimised, and most manufacturers compromise on the audio quality.

Only when you listen to the same song using the same amplifiers and speakers, and switch between the universal DVD Player and a CDP, will you understand the difference. In a DVD Player, I have always found the sound to be enhanced in the low frequencies and the mid and high frequencies to be be coloured as if they are coming through a haze. In a CDP, sound is much more clear and natural. A tabla will sound like a tabla, and not like a large drum.

Cheers

 

[gobble]

Venkat,

How does the Oppo 980H compare, its a more than decent dvd player and supposedly has excellent audio capabilities?

-Sudhir

I believe the 980H audio circuitry is different and better than the 983. Google for it.

cheers

 

[magma]

The 980 and 983 both have the same audio circuitry. At home I am using the 983 more as a CD Player, and to play only original DVDs. All rented DVDs are played on the Pioneer.


Cheers

dear venkat
any reason why rented dvds are not allowed to touch yor oppo?
or does the pioneer play scratched/old discs better?

 

[venkatcr]

any reason why rented dvds are not allowed to touch yor oppo? or does the pioneer play scratched/old discs better?

The Pioneer is cheaper and easily replaceable or repairable in Chennai. I don't want to give the Oppo any chance of getting spoiled by playing rented or pirated DVDs. It is like how you treat a new car. You dust your feet, and carefully watch how others get in and out of your car. You come home and immediately wipe your car inside and outside so that the polish and new car smell is there.

Cheers