What is the secret of these speakers?

[keith_correa]

@keith_correa if that was to my post, I have mentioned speakers only and not the drivers.

No, not responding to you. There was mention of voicing of drivers to "western" musical instruments etc. It was in response to that.

 

[rajafan]

No No thats not at all what I meant, the principle of each of the drum is the same but the tonality is very different because of the shape /material of the enclosure, tension of the hide etc etc..hence every drum sounds very different from the other in terms of the tone and the timbre.But i was not sure how one can make a speaker sounds good for western drums but not for indian as there is no way to differentiate that for a driver ( unless i am missing something ). The timbre and tone is made up of Sub harmonics and overtones over and above the fundamental frequency and its the combination which gives the tone and the texture of each drum. in fact there will be differences in sound even between each tabla depending on the tuning .

As I said earlier, I have no expertise on the technical aspect of the speakers. I understand from you that it is not frequency but tonality. Can I correct the statement to the following?

“These drivers have no ability to produce the timber and tonality of Indian instruments”

Is that correct?

 

[dheerajin]

Drivers are never voiced. Speakers are.
AFAIK, there is no "house" sound from driver manufacturers but many speaker manufacturers target this.
Frequency response is not the only thing that contributes to the sound of a driver. Distortion also plays a big role. Some people like the sound of distortion - maybe that's what you're after?

I guess..you nailed it...to each his own...some people like distortion by design...and it is not a flaw...but a blessing i guess...
I have home theater friends..they love bass and distortion and they refute my clean sounding system as it is not enchanting to them....

 

[dheerajin]

I totally disagree with you. Generally, there is a tendency to brush aside valid opinions with generic comments. When I describe the signature, I compare it to the original tone, timbre and dynamics of a live instrument. Probably you have missed few of my earlier replies.



Tell me where I am looking for a distorted or coloured sound.

To each his own

 

[rajafan]

To each his own

That is not the reply. You claim you like natural sounding and your setup is natural sounding. Please let me know how it sounds differently from my description. If it differs from my description, are they not coloured or lacking? Then you may claim your 'perception' of the sound is right and my perception is wrong. Then who is right here? If we both are right/wrong, how can we afford to belittle others?

 

[arj]

Let me give you another example. In my observation, Tabla has four layers of sound.

1. First layer is tinny highs
2. Second layer is wooden mids
3. Third layer is mid bass
4. Fourth layer is bass

There are different type of Tablas with different sound and dynamics. But in general, they have prominent frequency range from 70hz to 7Khz with 70 to 200 playing important role.

The speakers I have used and auditioned have certain characteristics. Few can produce 1 and 2, few 1 and 4, few 2 and 4. The FR drivers can produce 1,2 and 3 but lacking in 4.

But these little speakers produce all 4. It brings the whole body of music making me to crack my head and wanting me to upscale this model.

I quite agree with you on the above ( and learnt a little bit as well) .very often multidrivers do not do the "tinny highs" ( the Ghanak) of a tabla well enough, although a good well designed one will

The bass is a problem with most speakers the harmonics of a tabla ( The Baya ? ) extends quite low. My Brother in law plays one so have heard it and that sound is not very easy to reproduce . very often its because most recordings themselves do not capture that.. unfortunately.
If one does not have a full range a well integrated subwoofer can do that although getting one to integrate is not easy

 

[dheerajin]

That is not the reply. You claim you like natural sounding and your setup is natural sounding. Please let me know how it sounds differently from my description. If it differs from my description, are they not coloured or lacking? Then you may claim your 'perception' of the sound is right and my perception is wrong. Then who is right here? If we both are right/wrong, how can we afford to belittle others?

There is nothing right or wrong in audio.... again to each his own

 

[keith_correa]

Deleted

 

[rajafan]

I have never tried studio monitors. Where can I audition them in Chennai?

 

[square_wave]

It seems you are longing for a sound signature that comes from crossover less speakers. Timing and phase coherence is what makes you long for it. Almost all the older speakers which used full range drivers used to have this quality at the expense of sophistication, tonal purity and frequency extension.

Inexpensive route : Make or buy speakers which use one FR driver. You should try the Rethm Bhaava if possible. It uses one full range driver made by boston acoustics. Fantastic implementation!

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/rethm/1.html
I had also posted a review of this speaker on this forum. The boston driver is apparently the same design as the Philips 8 inch vintage.

Expensive route : Make or buy a fully active speaker system. This is expensive but removes the passive crossover from the equation and resultant time and phase coherence has to be heard to be believed. With a 2 way active, you get the benefit of full frequency extension too. Incidentally I was listening to Ilayaraga last weekend on such a system which use scanspeak drivers. What an experience!

Also, if the speakers are voiced to be reasonably neutral by design ( which most speakers are ), then it will not differentiate between western or indian music. Not to worry about this.

 

[rajafan]

It seems you are longing for a sound signature that comes from crossover less speakers. Timing and phase coherence is what makes you long for it. Almost all the older speakers which used full range drivers used to have this quality at the expense of sophistication, tonal purity and frequency extension.

Inexpensive route : Make or buy speakers which use one FR driver. You should try the Rethm Bhaava if possible. It uses one full range driver made by boston acoustics. Fantastic implementation!

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/rethm/1.html
I had also posted a review of this speaker on this forum. The boston driver is apparently the same design as the Philips 8 inch vintage.

Expensive route : Make or buy a fully active speaker system. This is expensive but removes the passive crossover from the equation and resultant time and phase coherence has to be heard to be believed. With a 2 way active, you get the benefit of full frequency extension too. Incidentally I was listening to Ilayaraga last weekend on such a system which use scanspeak drivers. What an experience!

Also, if the speakers are voiced to be reasonably neutral by design ( which most speakers are ), then it will not differentiate between western or indian music. Not to worry about this.

Thank you for the Rethm link. Size, particularly the depth, is an issue in my bedroom. You have mentioned about 2 way active. I was using a similar active speakers until 2 weeks ago with SVS SW. Are you meaning such systems? But you say they are expensive. So you must be meaning something else not the regular 2 or 2.1 active speakers system. Which brand and model you listened to Ilayaraja. If possible, give me some links.

 

[Kannan]

Expensive route : Make or buy a fully active speaker system. This is expensive but removes the passive crossover from the equation and resultant time and phase coherence has to be heard to be believed

Not at all expensive. I am running a 4-way active system in my car for sub 50k.
It includes a 3-way active head unit with the tweeters crossed passively at 12khz, three Allo Volt amp (3118D2 chips) boards for the tweeters, wideband and midbass, plus one Eight Audio mono board (3116D2 chip) for the dual 6.5 inch subwoofer in a push-pull isobaric configuration.
You can add another 15k for installation which was saved in my case as I DIyed the whole thing except the fibreglassing for the widebanders. For power, I use 4 laptop adapters and one 12 to 220 converter.

It is actually even more cheaper to do it at home. Dayton and miniDSP both have affordable processors to go 3 or 4 way active. There is no need to spend extensively on the drivers as you can easily restrict the bandwidth to within the specs of the driver.
Hard to tune initially due to the wide possibilities and control of xo, slope and other DSP parameters like phase, time alignment (not usually needed for home audio setup) parametric equalizers etc...but you can end up with a superb sounding setup overall.

Here is a sample from the setup which I had also posted in another thread of mine. Please ignore the cosmetic imperfections.

 

[square_wave]

You have mentioned about 2 way active. I was using a similar active speakers until 2 weeks ago with SVS SW. Are you meaning such systems? But you say they are expensive. So you must be meaning something else not the regular 2 or 2.1 active speakers system. .

Active systems are usually confused as speakers with built in amplifiers. Most budget speakers with built in amps are just self-amplified speakers. They have a preamp, passive crossover, amplifiers and all sins associated with such a design endeavour build into them.

Active speaker systems are speakers which allow the crossover to be an active one. The active crossover is an electrically powered component that sits in your rack. So, your source signal goes directly into an active preamp and then it goes into an active crossover component. There are many brands which combines both the preamp and crossover into a single box solution making it more convenient. The active crossover now splits the preamplfied signal into 2 or 3 depending upon the speaker design ( 2 or 3 way ). These separated signals goes into power-amps which directly drives the drivers without any passive component in between. In a typical 2 way active system you will need a minimum of 4 channels of amplification. These power amplifiers can sit inside the speaker also. Many ways to skin the cat, but the principle is the same.

Here is a good explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkWrx_xJ6gk

The system I listened to was at acoustic portrait in Bangalore. It is not in the market yet.
http://acousticportrait.com/

 

[flute]

There is no full range available which does not have issues.

 

[rajafan]

There are many brands which combines both the preamp and crossover into a single box solution making it more convenient. The active crossover now splits the preamplfied signal into 2 or 3 depending upon the speaker design ( 2 or 3 way ). These separated signals goes into power-amps which directly drives the drivers without any passive component in between. In a typical 2 way active system you will need a minimum of 4 channels of amplification. These power amplifiers can sit inside the speaker also. Many ways to skin the cat, but the principle is the same.

I have been looking for such active crossovers for a long time. I don't see any brands other than MiniDSP. Can you please guide me to those brands?

@Kannan I will call you tomorrow to get some ideas.

You can always run the FR crossover less and bass active and get best of both worlds in a 2 way setup. Tonal purity remains not scarficed.

Do you think my idea of a 4" FR + 8"SW for a 12x12 room sounds good? Are 4 inchers good at highs?

One of our FM @VSTEREO is so kind to demo similar setup. I am excited to see the performance.

There is no full range available which does not have issues.

What kind of issues? Highs and lows?

 

[arj]

Do you think my idea of a 4" FR + 8"SW for a 12x12 room sounds good? Are 4 inchers good at highs?

One of our FM @VSTEREO is so kind to demo similar setup. I am excited to see the performance.

May not be a bad choice. while I have no clue about speaker design, I do like omega speakers a lot
https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/tower-speakers/products/super-3xrs?variant=32185046156
They are using a 4.5 inch proprietary driver which seem to cover 55Hz-20Khz. with a good sub crossed over this would be pretty good.

Although personally I have preferred the midrange by larger drivers which move the air more and hence you can feel the bass as small drivers cant do that. Since even 200 hz has a tactile feel to it and only a larger driver give you that impact.

Anyway since after the age of 40 anything over 12Khz is only overconfidence , you can do with a larger driver is my guess but the DIY folks will know better !

 

[flute]

Time aligned, phase coherency can be achived along with lows.

 

[ajuvignesh]

From your signature, you are using LSR305 and T10. At one point of time, I wanted to try Presonus E6 and T10. But I was hesitant that they are Studio monitors. How do you find them? Will they suit my needs? Tough to make them sing?

Although I’m an audio engineer, I’m not an audiophile and I have some hearing issues. And, I was more in to movies, when I was in the studio. So, please take my words with a pinch of salt.

Jbl lsr is very good in my opinion and infact flat sounding monitor. It is not harsh for a studio monitors but the klipsch r28f I heared in a open store felt more smooth. May be it was due to the crowded place Where I get to listen to them. Otherwise, Jbls can produce the timbre of an instrument well.

Presonus eris e8 we had in the studio was good too. It’s been more than 3 years since I listened to it with untrained ears and if I recall correctly, It was a bit more clinical but not as much as any yamahas.
I would prefer jbls for their soundstage and imaging and I love listening to rajas music on it.
If you’re visiting Marthandam anytime, you can always ping me and have a listen on my non treated room.

 

[Hiten]

Although I’m an audio engineer, I’m not an audiophile and I have some hearing issues.

Bro,
You don't have to have a perfect hearing, nor an expensive/perfect equipments to be an Audiophile. All you need is love for Music (Any type) and liking for equipments (mostly any type) which reproduces it.
Regards

 

[rajafan]

Although I’m an audio engineer, I’m not an audiophile and I have some hearing issues. And, I was more in to movies, when I was in the studio. So, please take my words with a pinch of salt.

Jbl lsr is very good in my opinion and infact flat sounding monitor. It is not harsh for a studio monitors but the klipsch r28f I heared in a open store felt more smooth. May be it was due to the crowded place Where I get to listen to them. Otherwise, Jbls can produce the timbre of an instrument well.

Presonus eris e8 we had in the studio was good too. It’s been more than 3 years since I listened to it with untrained ears and if I recall correctly, It was a bit more clinical but not as much as any yamahas.
I would prefer jbls for their soundstage and imaging and I love listening to rajas music on it.
If you’re visiting Marthandam anytime, you can always ping me and have a listen on my non treated room.

So among JBL, Presonus, Yamaha and Klipsh, you prefer JBL.

Please do me a small favour by spending less than 5 minutes on your JBL. Play "Adal Kalaiye Devan Thanthathu". Exactly the first 20 seconds where the Mridhangam is played in its full glory. Especially the 5th and the 8th second where the tinny highs will peak and followed by the mid bass/ bass. This happens in just 2 seconds. Repeat this 20 seconds 5 times. Compare it to the original sound from Mridhangam played in similar style. Let me know how you compare the originals mridhangam to sound produced by JBL.

Also, please let me know where to audition studio monitors in Chennai.