Which of these DACs good for laptop?

After reading some thread and googling following are some options..

USB DACS
AudioEngine D1
HRT music Streamer II
Nuforce UDAC II
Music Fidelity V-DAC MKII

Ok, until you revealed your current set-up, i was about to recommend you the HRT MS 2 or MF Vdac.

I see all the big-wigs are already here to guide you to find a proper match for current setup.

But to answer your question(more to help people looking for dac in this range), from these options, i would not go for AE D1 or NF UDAC. No conclusive facts but i did consider these and decided to go for MS2 after fair amount of research(reading multiple reviews and comparisions). If you are considering UDAC you might as well count the E10 in. I would have definitely gone for VDAC if i could have afforded it. Im pretty happy with MS2 too!!

On a side-note, i dont find much talk abt well-priased entry-level dac Hifiman HM 101. Last i checked, its only 40 US$. This was my initial target but you know how it is!! :D
 
Wow! That sounds worth a try. Given that mid-range sound cards (Rs8,000 to Rs16,000 or 100-200 GBP, say) give excellent results, and do at least twice as much as a simple stand-alone DAC, I am far from sure that anyone needs to spend an audiophile fortune on such a thing. Here I go parroting again, but I do feel that the hifi DAC is more an invention of the marketing department.
You might find NwAvGuy's stuff interesting
Not shipping yet, but taking pre-orders, at GBP 99!

Whilst I've never looked for a stand-alone DAC, due to no need, I'm tempted to put NwAvGuy's combined USB-DAC/Headphone-Amp on my would-like-try list.
 
DIY is a fantastic idea ...if you can do it.

I know they say it only takes practice, but despite once being able to do neat gold and silver soldering, I have always made a mess of the lower temperature electrical stuff.

So I look on with envy at what the DIYers do. You might find NwAvGuy's stuff interesting --- or at least, you may enjoy some controversial views there :)

I like the idea of being a "creator" :) I would love to do some DIY down the line with some guidance. :) Nothing like eating our own cookie :) The idea itself is very creative and satisfying indeed :) On my future TODO checklist.
 
Wow! That sounds worth a try. Given that mid-range sound cards (Rs8,000 to Rs16,000 or 100-200 GBP, say) give excellent results, and do at least twice as much as a simple stand-alone DAC, I am far from sure that anyone needs to spend an audiophile fortune on such a thing. Here I go parroting again, but I do feel that the hifi DAC is more an invention of the marketing department.

Not shipping yet, but taking pre-orders, at GBP 99!

Whilst I've never looked for a stand-alone DAC, due to no need, I'm tempted to put NwAvGuy's combined USB-DAC/Headphone-Amp on my would-like-try list.

Sound cards +1 again. Bump to top of list :)
Sound card + DAC a step above. ok..
 
I think I have all the ingredients required for a good PC based setup :)

1. Monitor: Sony Bravia LCD (EX300)
2. CPU + good soundcard: Need to get
3. Oops, How can I forget :eek: that I also have a Microsoft wireless mouse and keyboard!!! :yahoo: this should take care of remote operation :D using the big LCD screen :licklips:
4. Cisco Linksys Wifi router for added connectivity (BONUS) for future proofing :cool:

LCD TV <-> Music PC <-> Inputs (wireless devices)

BTW how much would a GOOD music PC cost?
I know Asus Xonar card is around 9k range. How about the CPU part?


Hmm.. I guess my source is right in front of me right now :)
 
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Yes, digital signals are designed to do away with the noise and distortion of analog signal... but they are not NOISE FREE...they have their own "quantification error"...

You are spot on! There are many areas of noise and distortion in digital during read, during transmission and during conversion to analogue.

Jitter is well known these days and introduced during transmission into the digital signal from RF, poor soldering, clips to connect wire instead of soldering, poor seating of a connection (RCA, coax, USB, all of them) poor clocking, effects to the clocking mechanism and error correction circuitry from electrical noise and electrical signal reflection. Its countless and all forms of jitter and induced noise compromise the dac.

One of the more interesting distortions (there are many) during digital to analogue conversion is known as gain riding and solutions for this in the late nineties in the high end equipment brought about a huge advance in digital conversion quality and made digital systems reproduction of music much more listenable. Gain riding was the dac overshooting the voltage of the analogue signal after each sampling point. A momentum, if you will, of the voltage that was a distortion from what the analogue wave should have been. Theres been some trickle down of this and most dacs do a better job now but it still varies between dac chips.

Before the advent of this correction (and few others) I found digital reproduction unlistenable and would joke (but was serious) that digital systems harshness made my ears bleed.

It is always funny (and sad) when I hear folks say "it's digital so it must be perfect". Little realization that the implementation of digital (all the electronics) has so much room for error and distortion. And digital systems still can't equal the sound quality of a decent analogue based system. Yes, analogue has its own set of pitfalls. But analogue based sytems still convey a truer more satisfying sense of a musical event.

Now to the point of this thread :)...

An external dac is a far better choice than a sound card. You have better isolation of sensitive dac circuitry from the cheap pc power supply and all the RF and other electrical noise from the PC components. USB is not great but a dac that has asynchronous USB jitter correction helps a lot. Many are starting to incorporate this in the latest generation of DACs coming out. Another example of a distortion that was unrecognized until recently.
 
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There are things that can go wrong with digital signals. If yo must listen to 5 or 6 bit files, you will get quanitzation error :). That is not so much noise as a limit of the low-bit-rate format. Add the right kind of noise, and you won't notice it (dithering).

Good explanations here. Even better: they give example files here.



refering back to your first post... for laptop or for desktop PC?

Of course, a USB DAC should work with either, and with any computer you buy in the forseeable future.

About that laptop... is it in full, good working order? does it run quietly enough? How old is it? I'm thinking about when stuff starts to wear out, most likely hard disk, optical drive... Does it play a CD perfectly, loading it reasonably quickly and playing without any glitch as far as you can hear from the headphone socket? It would be a shame to plan a system around it, and then have some mechanical failure trip you up.

I have problems with the sources you point to as educational. It's all theory based and cursorily dismisses (the usual glib and clueless "we've got it all under control, it's all solved and perfect now") real world problems that still exist in getting digital electronics to implement theory. The implementation of digital is still nowhere close to the "perfect" theories. Many problems still exist with digital reproduction and are audible on good high end reproduction equipment where an analogue source better conveys the actual sounds of voice and instruments (an objective comparison of what I hear when listen to a live unamplified voice or instrument vs what I hear reproduced on a stereo). Many distortions in digital are not necessarily measurable because our ability to measure is crude, inaccurate. Sometimes a distortion is found because someone has the insight to specifically look for it. A good physicist , for example, knows how limited his measuring equipment is in the world of physics. No different in the electronics world of measureing signals though there is little recognition of the simplicity, crudeness , inaccuracy, and, most of all, the limits of the equipment doing the measurements coupled with a general complacency to think beyond what is thought to be known.
 
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I have problems with the sources you point to as educational.
My chosen sources tend to be pro or semi-pro audio, or even some of the more enlightened hifi engineers. People that are interested in real sound, not audiophoolery. I've been reading Sound on Sound for years, I used to buy the magazine, but many of the other sites are sites that I have either discovered through HFV, or found on a surfing expedition that began here.

I find it hard to understand how a site that not only describes audio technology, but ilustrates it with sound clips can be thought of as not being educational. Hands up those who know what quantisation error sounds like, and how dither corrects it! Hands up how many people know how much they can reduce their bit depth before they hear those errors? (Come on, folks: I bet foobar has a plugin, try it!)

[Yes, I know we have members who seriously and genuinely do know this stuff, including people who are or have been involved in audio engineering. Many of us, however, do not, and our subjectivity and mistaken "intuitive" knowledge may have have led us down paths that are quite wrong]

Now, hands up everyone who hears something and says, Ahh, thats quantisation ...or jitter. Come on, you can be honest: no-one is looking! :lol:

Me? I didn't have a clue, not really, until I listened to some if those examples there and elsewhere. I'm just passing on the results of my education.

You are spot on! There are many areas of noise and distortion in digital during read, during transmission and during conversion to analogue.

Jitter is well known these days
It's well known because so-called audiophiles love to "jitter" about it. It's a buzz word. OK, it's controversial, but depending on what you read, it is either a huge problem, or has not been a problem at all for a long time.
A lot of fuss is still made about jitter, but while it is potentially a serious issue it's rarely a practical problem these days simply because equipment designers and chip manufacturers have found very effective ways of both preventing it and dealing with it.
From the Sound-on-Sound link I gave above. Written in 2008. Perhaps asynchronous USB has even further improved the situation, but was it that bad before? OK, any improvement can only be good.
Before the advent of this correction (and few others) I found digital reproduction unlistenable and would joke (but was serious) that digital systems harshness made my ears bleed.
My first "digital" records, digitally-mastered vinyl, were cold, dead, lifeless and horrible. Perhaps a function of the immature technology, and the inexperience of its users. That was a long time ago. Where I have both, I cannot think of a Vinyl that I prefer to the CD. Maybe early CDs were like the bad experience I had with digitally-mastered vinyl: I guess I didn't start buying them until they had been around for a while.

Unfortunately, it is often an unfair comparison, as some (or a lot of) remastering has been done. For a real test of vinyl vs digital, we must digitise our own vinyl, and then compare one with the other. My subjective opinion is that there is little or no difference, clicks, crackles, scratches and pops and all. For a less subjective opinion, see here.


It is always funny (and sad) when I hear folks say "it's digital so it must be perfect".
Yes, that's bullshit (like printing "digital" on the box for a pair of cheap headphones) but this is the talk of the ignorant and the marketing departments.

Little realization that the implementation of digital (all the electronics) has so much room for error and distortion.
But why start off with the assumption that it will be bad? So that you have to buy expensive high-end kit? There's a test, online, where a modest soundcard is tested agains high-end studio gear: the results amaze. Well, they surprised me, as someone who tends to claim that one has to spend eight or even sixteen thousand on a "decent" soundcard :eek:!

And digital systems still can't equal the sound quality of a decent analogue based system. Yes, analogue has its own set of pitfalls. But analogue based sytems still convey a truer more satisfying sense of a musical event.
Purely your subjective opinion. You're entitled to that: analogue is a different experience. In some ways I miss it.

For everyone who says this, there will be people who say the opposite. Whatever: best we just choose which we like!

Recently, I obtained a digital (from CD) copy of a vinyl album I'd digitised. At first, I didn't like it so much. Then I started listening to the detail in it, and I was hooked.
An external dac is a far better choice than a sound card. You have better isolation of sensitive dac circuitry from the cheap pc power supply and all the RF and other electrical noise from the PC components.
Theory suggest that, however, don't you think that a decent sound card would be appropriately designed?

The middle way is the sound interface with an external box. But, as I metioned previously, it may not be worth paying for I/O when all that is wanted is O.

However, I still imagine the marketing department scene:

Guys, we make a box that does half as much, or less, than a soundcard, and we sell it for many times the price. Will they buy it? Sure they will!

And they did, droves of them.

USB is not great

USB 1.0 was certainly not great.

Firewire ha been the choice of professional units, but now USB is used by companies such as RME. Their products are not great?

It does seem to be generally agreed that, for USB, implementation is all and there are certainly bad examples.

Many distortions in digital are not necessarily measurable because our ability to measure is crude, inaccurate.
I don't think that engineers think that. They can measure what our rather poor ears can't even hear. Even dogs know that our hearing is not up to much, let alone bats!


.
 
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........
I don't think that engineers think that. They can measure what our rather poor ears can't even hear. Even dogs know that our hearing is not up to much, let alone bats!
.

I knowingly stepped into this 3 decades old debate. I'm sure I won't change your mind as you are convinced that you can't discern audible differences in current gear or are simply unable to hear differences. I have no intention sounding insulting here if it comes across that way. Rather, just as in all endeavors we humans have different levels of ability whether it comes to ability to dance, play an instrument, sports, do well at school, write poetry, taste better or worse food we certainly must have differing abilites at hearing and preceiving. So with apologies if this comes across negative lets let this rest.

On to the link you provided on double blind tests. I note that they ran the test once with some number of people picking one system or the other and concluded that because not everyone picked the better system no one can tell the difference. Now did it occur to these testers that perhaps the folks that picked the better system were the ones who have the gift of better hearing?

They would have done well to repeat the test with the same folks to see if there was a consistency on who chose the better system. But, instead they reached their preconcieved conclusion after one trial and ended their test. Sad and goes to my earlier statement that most engineers have no idea on the limits and flaws of their test. Sadder that many folks will read this and not discern the flaw.

Here is another link to some much better known testers but I'll provide a quote of interest from the article below (I know we started on digital, but cables are just as hotly contested so the analogy is equivalent):

Do It Yourself - Cables - Article: What audio cables are

And here is the quote:

Blind and independent testing conducted by Lee Gomes of the Wall Street Journal demonstrated that 61% of 39 people tested at an audio show could differentiate between low end and high end speaker cables. Lee Gomes remarked, "That may not be much of a margin for two products with such drastically different prices, but I was struck by how the best-informed people at the show -- like John Atkinson and Michael Fremer of Stereophile Magazine -- easily picked the expensive cable". However, in more rigorous tests performed under controlled circumstances listeners have not been able to prove there is any audible difference between high end and cheap cables

Now Michael Fermer and John Atkinson are well known in the high-end community and clearly showed an ability as per Lee Gomes remark. The later "rigorous tests" didn't include Michael and John so Michael and John become a statistical anomoly rather than, Hmmmm somthings going on here.
Another poor test where this Lee guy had no idea what he was dealing with.

Now, onto your quote that I included above. Dogs and bats can hear higher frequency range of sound. This has nothing directly to do with the ability discern nuances to sound. But onto the your point of electronic measurements being better than our ears.

So, here is a challange/contest for you.

You can instrument a room with any electronic equipment to sample the sound in a room. Setup your monitors/equipment in an adjacent sound sealed room. I will sit in the instrumented room, blindfolded. You sit in the adjacent sound sealed room looking at your scopes and what all.

We will have a musician or two come into the room I am in and play some acoustical instruments. Lets see who can more quickly discern what instruments are playing. Me using my ears or you using your scopes.

So please don't sell out our ears so quickly. Within the range of our hearing we can discern many more aspects of sound than test equipment can. Test equipment is fine for gross measurements like what is the frequency range and amplitude, etc.

Discerning what we are hearing is something we can all get better at. Just like playing a sport, you get better as you continue to play. We will all reach an ultimate different level due to natural ability (just like in sports). Good audiophiles spend time listening to live unamplified instruments. Just this past weekend I listened to a turkish jazz ensemble (trumpets trombones, saxs, bass, drums) in a small setting with no amplification. What I hear at a live unamplified concert allows me to objectively gauge and compare what I hear when listening to stereo. So it is incorrect for you to dismiss this as, as you put it "audiophoolery". Real sound is what you hear, by the way. :)
 
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I am sorry you wasted so much time answering an argument that I never made.
I'm sure I won't change your mind as you are convinced that you can't discern audible differences in current gear or are simply unable to hear differences.
I never said that I couldn't, I never implied that I couldn't, and I never implied that anybody else can't. Do you think I would even be here if that were the case?

So, you think you have answered my points, but instead, you have put up an argument that I never made, and never would make, and knocked that down instead.

Fail!

What I do say is that some of the differences we hear (yes, including me of course) are simply not there, but are caused by various psychological elements that are well documented, but that audiophools (Not true music lovers) like to deny. Personally I find it fascinating to challenge my own perceptions. Some others seem to find it threatening.

I also say that if there is a real difference then it can be measured. It is an absolute nonsense to say that measurement technology is coarse and inferior. I suspect that even a PC recording software like Audacity can show differences in wave form or spectral display beyond what we can hear.

I also say that doing so, when we are buying or auditioning equipment is largely irrelevant: we buy what we like, whatever the reasons. But there are so many claims --- and the fact that the industry, on the whole, will not submit to testing of those claims, speaks for itself. I have to quote J Gordon Holt yet again...
As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel. For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.
 
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focus.jpeg


OK, now if we all may :p then let us concentrate and focus on the goal of this whole activity :)

(I love to know different schools of thoughts though right now I am like in the exam hall with 5 minutes remaining to complete my paper! So please kindly excuse my urgency :) )
Last-five-minutes-of-exam.jpg


Hope this lightens up things :)

focus-on-goals-1.jpg


GOAL: Setup a music PC or use my Laptop :)
 
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BTW just to get some songs playing from my lappy which cable should I use.

I know I can use the headphone out but it is only one connector which need to split into left/right cables.

Also any options for a similar cable for USB.

Well this is just for fun to see how much SQ is coming through my laptop raw. :) So that I can simply run and get some cable to test this out. :)
 
@rsud
NwAvGuy has been controversial in 'audiophool' circles, but he makes very interesting observations.
NwAvGuy: What We Hear

When we listen to something, our brain plays a huge role in filtering out stuff. And our brain is easily fooled.

It's an established fact that the brain can sense things if we really want to, even if the thing is not present. Its so reliable that USA FDA relies on it to prove new medicines.
 
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GOAL: Setup a music PC or use my Laptop :)

Sorry :eek:

To be honest, I find these ideas and controversies, and chewing them over, almost as interesting as music :)

BTW just to get some songs playing from my lappy which cable should I use.

I know I can use the headphone out but it is only one connector which need to split into left/right cables.
Oh, sure --- as long as it is a stereo headphone socket*. Some of the old machines had mono headphone sockets. What do get through earphones?

Headphone plug to 2 RCA plugs is a fairly standard adapter cable. A local gadget shop or electronic bits and pieces shop should be able to supply one, and a real cheap one will get you going.

I'd love to pop round with a bag of bits, but Pune is a bit too far, I'm afraid.

This is, obviously, not a line-level output. Turn the laptop volume down to nothing. Check with the headphones. Zero the pre-amp volume. Then you can connect to the amplifier. Turn the amp volume up to something reasonable, and then turn up the laptop volume slowly until you hear Music! :eek:hyeah:

Then twiddle the two volumes until you get the best result.

Beware of blasting full headphone volume into your pre-amp. I don't know for sure that it might do damage, but I really, really don't want you to be the person that tells me it does!

*even if it isn't, mono splitters are available (I use one with my small portable radio to feed the same signal to both ears), but, obviously, you didn't buy all that gear to listen to mono sound. Still, it's amazing what you can do. Years back, I used to play my real-cheap radio-alarm-clock through the stereo this way. Hardly a quality source, but the result is still way better than one-inch speaker in a small plastic box!

(
NwAvGuy has been controversial in 'audiophool' circles, but he makes very interesting observations.
I do believe in audiophiles... And I do know that there are many members here with better ears and vastly more experience of of audio equipment.
)
 
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Also any options for a similar cable for USB.

I'm not really sure i understand what you're asking. If you are trying to get sound output via USB, just a cable will not do. It has to be fed into a DAC, and from the DAC to your Amplifier. The chain has to be like:

Laptop USB -> USB Cable -> USB DAC -> RCA Interconnect Cables -> Stereo Amplifier -> Speaker Cables -> Speakers


Well this is just for fun to see how much SQ is coming through my laptop raw.
As Thad has suggested, you can use a 3.5mm stereo to RCA converter cable, but the issue that he's pointed out would be you're not getting line level signal.

This chain would be like:
Laptop Internal DAC -> Laptop Internal Amp -> 3.5mm to RCA Cable -> Stereo Amplifier -> Speaker Cables -> Speakers

As you can see, the signal gets amplified twice, once by the internal laptop amp and then by your speaker amp. This can lead to distortion at high volumes, though you should be OK at lower volumes. Ideally, you'd want to avoid double amplification if you can.

If your laptop can give a line level signal, then the internal amp would be eliminated from the signal path. Check your laptop manual, or eyeball its ports to see if any of them are marked as Line-Out.
 
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