Why NOS tubes are so special compared to newly manufactured Tubes

[mahiruha]

Hi,
for last couple of months I am in search for a good ECC83 tubes for my phono pre and I read considerable amount of literature about different makes. I tried a pair of Mullard ecc83 in my phono pre and the experience was amazing. I find there are some reissue of old classic tubes like mullard and telefunken and some of them are cryo treated.

For example mullard ecc83 : Cryoset Online Store

Telefunken Ecc83 :Watford Valves :: Product - ECC83-STR/HARMA CRYO

The new tubes are considerably cheaper than the old NOS tubes. Now the question is when these old legendery tubes were produced mainly in the 60's or 70's can the production environment be compared to todays more controlled environment? Is there any logical explanation which makes the NOS tubes so special as compared to their modern counterpart. I must say I don't have any idea about tube production methodology so not too sure if modern productions are truly modern as compared to old days. Please share your experiences with both kind of tubes.
Thanks.

 

[maniac_2004]

Hi,
for last couple of months I am in search for a good ECC83 tubes for my phono pre and I read considerable amount of literature about different makes. I tried a pair of Mullard ecc83 in my phono pre and the experience was amazing.

Thanks.

what phono pre are you using and also what changes are you seeing after the mullard change ..

I too am reading about mullard tubes giving a boost to your existing setup and wanted to know more

Regards

 

[gobble]

I have mullard ecc82 form Blackburn, dont just go by internet folklore.
They are good and creamy and add a sense of composure and reserved attitude to the sound (sounds British?)at the expense of a foot tapping liveliness and excitement. Also the top end extension is bettered by others.

I would recommend Mullard ecc82s highly if your system is bright sounding causing fatigue.

I read that manufacturing process itself has changed because it s no long effective to involve certain procedures and processes due to low volume. I cant find that article anymore, detailing what exactly though.

-Gobble

 

[gobble]

To Add, The Telefunken diamond smooth plates ecc82 I returned because they sounded noisy and the SQ had unwanted coloration due to it. Dynamics were heart stopping though.

If you dont have option of returning tubes beware!

-G

 

[mahiruha]

@maniac: I am using Lyrita phonostage. When I changed the stock 5751 tubes to Mullard the obvious change was sound became more 3 dimensional with excellent midrange. Actually all is said about vintage mullard were clearly audiable.

@Gobble: Good to know that you experiemented with Mullard ECC82. Those are low gain preamp tubes as compared to high gain ECC83 normally used in Phono preamp.Actually some point in future I have plans to get a tube pre with mullard ecc82 to try with my active speakers. Its unfortunate that you encountered a noisy telefunken.It surprizes me a bit since Telefunken's are known for their unmatched clarity they bring to the system but my knowledge is limited to Telefunken Ecc83 don't know much about Ecc82. But The point I want to know is why the NOS tubes are so special? Have you done any direct comparison of NOS tubes with the reissue ones. In todays world is it so difficult to replicate the designs of some old tubes since there are quite a few companies who are actually doing it.
Thanks.

 

[GeorgeO]

Mahi

All NOS valves are not equal, and some current generation are as good if not better. JJ Tesla, Sophia, TJ Meshplate, Shuguang are all very good, as well as some other brands. The GE 300Bs were rated very good, and so were some Mullards. BEL, here made some under license and they are also good.

I suppose in a sense it may be something like the old Stradivarius violins..

George

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Mahiruha,

I guess in the good olde days they built things to last. Today's short product cycles make production geared towards products being obsolete in a shorter time frame. Plus my guess is that in the olde days they used better material, better quality and better workmanship. With today's knowledge better quality is possible but not utilized due to the shorter obsolescence. All my theorizing of course. Plus tubes used to enjoy wider use hence production runs were bigger and costs were lower per tube.

Personally for me there's an utterly romantic charm that NOS tubes bring. I've junked my plans to get the Emission labs 45 tube for some time and stockpiled some ECC83 like the mullard long plates, mullard box plates, siemens munich made, siemens long plates, tungsram, rca cleartops, tungsol/ sylvania/ raytheon 5687s and some assorted 5V4G/5V4GA rectifier tubes. Each has a very distinctive charm and a different presentation. Utterly enjoyable each one of them.

Regards

 

[mahiruha]

@George: Thanks for your inputs. I guest its a quest which can only be answered by trying different options and see what it is out there.

@Steven: Good to see you after a long time. Now I know what you have been doing all this time. Secretly building your collection of ECC83s. Sounds like a new addiction. I guess I am also on my way to get few different samples to have a variety of sound at hand which can be tuned depending on the mood. This thing is indeed too much fun.:yahoo:
Thanks.

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Mahiruha,

I've got enough to last me for bout 10 years now couple of tubes left to get, the french mazda silver anodes and amperex long plates and the mullard mc1s. I have the third gen long plate mullards, the f92s. I'll make a post with pics and my impressions sometime soon. The most ironic purchase was a Bangalore BEL branded tube, bought from Spain, made in Munich Germany. Quite a global journey for those poor tubes!

Regards

 

[Hiten]

Stevie, How about tube DIY
Make: Online : Make your own vacuum tubes?

 

[maniac_2004]

Hi Mahiruha,
Personally for me there's an utterly romantic charm that NOS tubes bring. I've junked my plans to get the Emission labs 45 tube for some time and stockpiled some ECC83 like the mullard long plates, mullard box plates, siemens munich made, siemens long plates, tungsram, rca cleartops, tungsol/ sylvania/ raytheon 5687s and some assorted 5V4G/5V4GA rectifier tubes. Each has a very distinctive charm and a different presentation. Utterly enjoyable each one of them.

Regards

Hi Stevie,
cud you give the specifics for each tube in terms of soundstage vocals, effects ,depth, bass etc ... or any link which gives this specific information.

Thx

 

[mahiruha]

Hi maniac,
if you are after ECC83 then the following report has a good summery.

http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_2.pdf
Thanks.

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Maniac,

Yes watford is one as given by Mahiruha. I don't have the links but can point you in the direction of a couple more. Google for ebay reviews ecc83/12ax7, google for brent jesse forget his website, that has good descriptions of various tubes.

mullards - the short plates are warm involving sound, the long plate mullards are graceful sounding like a gracious willowy lady, relaxed. bass isn't the tightest of them but overall signature is very midrange led magic

amperexes - lively sounding, good bass.

siemens made in munich - clear like a bell pealing out from a tall german cathedral. the sound floats lightly, superb tight bass, lovely treble and very very clear.

telefunkens - neutrality comes to mind, superb bass, midrange treble but not as involving as the european tubes. european tubes have more 'magic' and harmonics, the german tubes are more 'neutral' but less involving than the european ones.

mullard m8137 box plates - sound quite thick and with good drive, better bass than the regular mullards, sounds quite powerful

tungsram - quite balanced and musical sounding


what equipment do you have?

regards

 

[stevieboy]

Stevie, How about tube DIY
Make: Online : Make your own vacuum tubes?

absolutely lovely hiten!!! many many thanks!!! over the weekend am gonna record it to my comp. the guy makes it look so effortless!

thanks!
steve

 

[maniac_2004]

what equipment do you have?

regards

Hi Stevie,

Was so far using solid state . Got a Yaqin tube buffer (cd2 6j1 ) recently so wanted to know about the additions possible . Maybe later might go in for a full tube setup.

What will go in best with a Yaqin btw ? or is it a matter of taste(trail and error)


Regds

 

[stevieboy]

Maniac,

Hehe no such thing as something will go best with a particular piece of gear. Rather take a chance on a tube based on its sound signature. It ought to sound more or less the same in all gear, assuming the design is upto a certain basic quality. All depends on how well your gear is built and there's only one way of finding that out, to buy a couple of tubes bung them in and listen. Generally though, input tubes, rectifiers and power tubes have a big difference on sound, not so sure how an output tube will change the signature. I'll swap some 5687 output tubes on my phonostage and let you know in a few days.. Am guessing you have just two tubes in that buffer, or perhaps one. Which ones are they 5687? and brand? Also take into account the cost of your gear cos most NOS tubes are average 5k a pair.

One tip for you and Mahiruha, if you're buying tubes, do not opt for tracking/insurance with your shipping cos it'll cost more and more importantly, take longer to arrive and have customs slapped on it. I've had all of my tubes come normal shipping USPS this time and they've come in by 10 days. The first tubes I picked up long back came registered, took bout 3-4 weeks and had a huge customs charge slapped on which drove the prices up substantially. Normal shipping of $10-15 gets it here faster and no customs charges. I've saved quite bundle this time around!

Regards

edit: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=152430

 

[Rajiv]

I've got enough to last me for bout 10 years now couple of tubes left to get, the french mazda silver anodes and amperex long plates and the mullard mc1s. I have the third gen long plate mullards, the f92s. I'll make a post with pics and my impressions sometime soon. The most ironic purchase was a Bangalore BEL branded tube, bought from Spain, made in Munich Germany. Quite a global journey for those poor tubes!

Steven, you have enough to last a couple of lifetimes.The ECC83's last for a long time.


If you have any plans of selling any of your stock you know whom to call.

I have been buying 45's and have just got a pair of Canadian made RCA's.Missed out on a pair of Cunningham globes.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[stevieboy]

Hehe most certainly Rajiv! Even I wanted to get a pair of globes. Will pick em up in a while as soon as a good pair comes along. I've got canadian 12ax7s that are supposedly similar to delta heerlens but they sure don't sound the same. Different raw materials am guessing. What made me get back in buying was a few rectifiers that I got from Viren.

Regards

 

[thevortex]

Stevie - your posts in this thread have been most informative.

Been thinking about a 45 tube for quite some time now. No reason to delay it now that I have higher sensitivity speakers . Would either of you gentlemen (Stevie and Rajiv) have any 45 tubes you would be willing to sell me?

I actually have somebody coming from the US at around the end of this month. Are there any good deals out there on rectifiers an/or output tubes?

 

[maniac_2004]

Maniac,

Am guessing you have just two tubes in that buffer, or perhaps one. Which ones are they 5687? and brand?

Regards

edit: YAQIN CD2-6J1 Tube buffer, need tube suggestions - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

Hi Stevie,
these are 2 stock chinese 6j1 tubes which came with the tube buffer. Could not get any other details regarding the tubes.

btw what sort of tube equipment do you have and wht do you recommend to start with ? Went with this buffer as it was the simplest addition to your existing solid state setup to experience tube sound.

Thx