Why People hate Bose

[jaudere]

hi,

1)I still fail to understand how specifications change someone's opinion about sound quality. Those specifications which tell whether 2 components are compatible & that pairing them will do no harm are important for someone who fiddles around. Beyond that its all subjective.

2)whats the basis of conclusion that a person buying consumer goods does not do critical listening? I have HP Net book as source, Marantz pm6002 as amp & Ventronic speakers. Typical consumer goods set up. But I start listening to music at 11pm when all people in my home are asleep, fan is put off, refridgerator is off. Only 1 window open for some air flow. No A/C. Will you call that critical listening?

3)When someone buys Bose, he buys a whole system where individual components are optimized (at least as per the manufacturer) for pairing. Audioengines/powered speakers do that. Those who go for Bose should be knowing that upgrade path is not open. Buyer has to take the package as powered speaker. Someone who really wants to fiddle around knows which gadgets to use or whose help to take to find out the necessary specifications. People like Cranky have guts to open speakers like Ushers just to modify the XO. Now tell me how many of forum members will understand anything by knowing that their speaker has XO at 4KHZ With slope of 18dB/Octave or the fallacy of building a ported box for a speaker driver with Qts of 1?

This knowledge is important for someone trying to build speaker but how this knowledge will help someone to assess sound quality by 'Critical listening'. If some system sounds bad, it sounds bad no matter what specifications say.

So a person who REALLY knows how to play around plays his game with his system. Someone who doesnt, blames lack of specifications.

 

[jaudere]

I forgot to thank god for sending me patients who believe in my diagnosis because I am critical care expert. The proof of heart attack is there with patient having chest pain, sweating &fluctuating Blood pressure with diabetes/obesity in addition to ECG. So they believe. Who is going to believe me if the patient walks in cracking jokes and absolutely on pain & sweating ,and i do ECG(Probably unnecessarily) and tell him that u have a heart attack. He will shout at me 'doc, either your machine or you are not in senses.

I cant even imagine a patient telling me that the 'doc,you have not declared the ECG Specifications to me. So I cannot be having heart attack'. Or because the standardization is 10mm/mV:so you should not give me aspirin or something like that.

 

[theironhorse]

Why Bose Speakers are Bad

 

[deepakgang]

well when you go to get a ECG machine, dont you look at its specifications? what if there is this machine which gives you "a fairly good" output as opposed to the accurate measure of whats going on in the patients body. we are talking about critical instruments so it should be 99.99% accurate.
When we talk about audio reproduction, we are asked if we like what we hear and not to care of what was actually recorded or what the music director intended or what the musicians played in the recording room.

There will be people who dont bother about these and only care about what they hear but there are others who care about those intricate details.

Thats about knowing the specification. Second point is about the actual specification itself. If you google you could see posts people have made by comparing bose speakers frequency and impedance response. One will come to know how poor it is and how less they have cared about reproducing the entire frequency range being calling themselves serious hifi manufacturer.
If I do not know or care about the specification, I may never know what I am missing. I might not care about other speakers lesser in price which will give me more from my money.
It sounds just like science and philosophy. Some like to go behind the theory, learn more and put the facts down as equations and formulas. Knowing more keeps them going.
But if one calls oneself a scientist, why not prove the theories. Or if you are a philosopher, dont say something which you know is incorrect.

 

[rohit3192]

This I found on listing of US based seller:

Don't even bother messing around with any sound other than BOSE. There are two types of people in this world, those who have had the pleasure of owning Bose headphones and products and those who haven't.

My answer to above quote BS.

IMHO the best thing is to own something to make proper judgement about something.
I used to hate apple ipods but after reading too many good reviews for itouch i bought one and after a week i was sure that this thing is not for me.
Some times 5-10 min demos can be deceiving.
One can always sell product (at some loss) and buy another product.

 

[jaudere]

well when you go to get a ECG machine, dont you look at its specifications? what if there is this machine which gives you "a fairly good" output as opposed to the accurate measure of whats going on in the patients body. we are talking about critical instruments so it should be 99.99% accurate.
When we talk about audio reproduction, we are asked if we like what we hear and not to care of what was actually recorded or what the music director intended or what the musicians played in the recording room.

There will be people who dont bother about these and only care about what they hear but there are others who care about those intricate details.

Thats about knowing the specification. Second point is about the actual specification itself. If you google you could see posts people have made by comparing bose speakers frequency and impedance response. One will come to know how poor it is and how less they have cared about reproducing the entire frequency range being calling themselves serious hifi manufacturer.
If I do not know or care about the specification, I may never know what I am missing. I might not care about other speakers lesser in price which will give me more from my money.
It sounds just like science and philosophy. Some like to go behind the theory, learn more and put the facts down as equations and formulas. Knowing more keeps them going.
But if one calls oneself a scientist, why not prove the theories. Or if you are a philosopher, dont say something which you know is incorrect.

1) As an expert i must look into specifications of ECG Machine which are absolutely standard internationally. But thats my job as an expert. What i am saying is my patients (who are not doctors themselves )should not bother about those because they wont understand. In that example, i am in role of manufacturer and pt a consumer. If at all pt is doesnt believe in me,he should take other doctor's opinion but not of some lay person on some forum.

2) In ECG, There is nothing subjective. In fact it is an objective proof of subjective symptoms of patient with chest pain. Perception of audio is however highly subjective while specifications are not. Even with same specifications, 2 systems may sound different to two different persons or different to same person ct different times. I didnt say specifications are not important. Yes they are important but its for those who build speakers or amps.

To hate (or like to hate)a sound system because no specifications are there is bit odd. I didnt object to Gobble's audition experience. Thats his personal opinion put in his own way. Thats fine.

If you were happy with sound of a system, why should you do something that will make you unhappy?why to bother about dips or peaks in frequency response graphs when you had not noticed anything abnormal while listening to songs on it?its like spoiling one's own party & blaming someone else. Thats what i said in beginning. One should be in persuit of happiness rather than truth.


By the way how can you be sure that the person who posted frequency response curve of Bose has not tampered with speakers or posted some ordinary speakers' curve under name of Bose just because He Likes to hate Bose?People can go to any extent to prove their point.

 

[afj]

the only products i've heard of bose that were good and vfm were their 301 bookshelf speakers and their ipod doc. apart from that their 901 flagship speakers are definitely lacking across the range, the acoustimass doesnt feel like youre listening to surround sound and the lifestyle is very highly priced - though really small and fits into a house well. its sounds pretty decent too. havent listened to any other stuff of theirs

 

[deepakgang]

By the way how can you be sure that the person who posted frequency response curve of Bose has not tampered with speakers or posted some ordinary speakers' curve under name of Bose just because He Likes to hate Bose?People can go to any extent to prove their point.

Another reason why people are asking for the specs from the manufacturer.


Speakers will definitely sound different but the point is am I able to hear everything or some part of it which I might like. Gimme everything to hear, I will like it even more but do I have an option.. or do I even know that I am missing something? When you are talking to Bose you are not given answers to these but instead asked to close your eyes and listen what they are producing.

 

[deba]

I may be wrong but this whole business of buying equipments based on specification looks quite hilarious to me because I am sure that most manufacturers who declare their specification on paper are questionable about their preciseness and correctness. We are helpless buyers because none of us as a music lover have industry standard measuring equipments installed at our home.

I do believe in buying equipments after auditioning and where auditioning is not available its other Customer feedback that comes into the picture.

Audio is subjective which you cannot see or touch but feel and that feeling is like a fingerprint which varies from person to person.

Whether Bose or any other company publishes specification doesnt matter even to the most critical listener if the sound satisfies your ear. Never get into the concept of more expensive better sound experience. There are tons of low end gears in the market giving superior quality sound.

 

[Audio Slave]

May be because Bose has tried to 'Boss' Over the Hi-fi market as far as pricing and life-style are concerned but not offering corresponding value for money.

 

[gobble]

hi,

1)I still fail to understand how specifications change someone's opinion about sound quality. Those specifications which tell whether 2 components are compatible & that pairing them will do no harm are important for someone who fiddles around. Beyond that its all subjective.

2)whats the basis of conclusion that a person buying consumer goods does not do critical listening?

Jaudere

I agree knowing about specifications is distinct from knowing how to interpret them like an expert. Or that a consumer of luxury goods need not have a lack of critical faculty to judge what sounds good compared to another.

If you can be a consumer who chooses to be blind to specifications and still take a chance with some goods at a premium cost because it sounds good to your ears when you have the buying itch, then it is your privilege.

Tomorrow you will hear something at less cost that sounds better, then what will be your analysis? "Oh the box on this new gear or the flashing LEDs look prettier than the first one" therefore or that's why it sounds better? How will you answer the question or make guesstimates about why this expensive gear you enjoyed earlier today sounds less musical than your neighbors? Or if voices don't sound natural ? If you take the reverse case - your Bose system sounds much better than an equally expensive rival product, one can become a smug owner saying "I don't know whats inside, but it sure is good!". But the reality is most people approach the buying exercise with suspicion justifiably after experiencing the real world. And those that believe they have heard better at lesser cost naturally turn cynical about the brand after such an experience as at a Bose showroom where specs are denied to make an informed choice.

When we buy a car or scooter do we check engine specifications? How many CC? Fuel economy? Dimensions? Boot volume? Seating capacity? Not a very apt example since these specs have a practical effect in the real world, while the in the case of audio the benefits are psycho-acoustical, but just to illustrate a typical buying process. Then after we know these specs if we still choose the prettier car with lesser specs because our heart is set on it then nobody has the right to criticize the buyer. Its his money his choice.

Many Bose customers may be buying in total ignorance of the specs and may be enjoying the sound of their system. Not a crime. But we are people who step into a Bose showroom after having listened to other setups. At this point it is a part intellectual game as well one of consumer psychology. We try to use the intellectual knowledge about specifications to the best of our limited ability and expertise so that we balance the blind shopping instinct with informed choice. And when this option of being informed is not really an option anymore because the manufacturer of the product is unwilling to share its specs, it jars ones sensibilities and puts up a red flag - the trust deficit.

This intellectual exercise may come in the way of genuine emotional enjoyment of what the system is capable of, for surely as with everything in life it is a balancing act between intellect and psychology/emotions. If you or the millions of other customers are able to overcome it then good for you, and all those users who are convinced that it is the best for the money.

If this were a 100 rupee product, it would not merit any discussion - buy, try, use and throw in the dustbin!! But its not!

To complete what I intended to say in my first few sentences - Nobody has ever made an attempt here and on multiple threads, to ridicule the Bose customer for his choice.

-G0bble

 

[deepakgang]

well specs is a measure of the performance right. why does intel when releases the latest processor puts the processor speed in the ads? why does people look into how much efficient or powerul a car when they buy it? why do I check if its Android 1.6 or 2.3 the fancy mobile phone I just saw run? why is it hilarious just in the case of speaker specs?
Agree that specs doesnt make any speaker sound better. Thats not the whole point. No one should buy or advise others to buy a system based just on specs. Just like you wont buy a car or phone just by specs. But it has its due importance.

 

[anuragn]

Regarding specs, I have observed that most of the mass market audio systems (likes of Sony, Philips etc) invariably have a THD of 10%, while even the entry level models of AVRs have THD in the range of <1%.
My point is that these are in a different league altogether (THD being just one parameter to illustrate my point). In absence of any specs, how I, a layperson, to know which league does Bose fall into? Just because it is insanely priced, so I "assume" that it has to be the best, and I need not worry about specs and all since they would have been taken good care of by the company (again an assumption).
The specs do give a sort of comfort level when I (here "I" represents the mass market consumer) am going to spend appx 0.2 million rupees on an audio system and in the absence of any specs at all, there is always a spec of doubt, no matter how much I depend on audition, that I might not get the true worth what I am paying for.

 

[jaudere]

Now thats what i call false sense of security. Even logitech has THD Of 10% for that matter. If you listen to these sony/philips/logitech at less than 50% volume, do you hear any distortion? On top of that some people even say addition of harmonic distortion may even make the sound sweeter. How much,no one says. So where are we by knowing the level of THD?

@Gobble: thats what i am saying. First ,when i enter a showroom, i should be as less prejudiced as possible. Now since i have heard a lot of other systems& i am carrying my music with me, i know what exactly i want. So i listen to this new system. If it gives me satisfaction,that system is good. If it is cheaper than other set ups I buy it. If it is equally priced: i look into aesthetics. If it is higher priced, forget about it. I dont look into specs.
If that system sounds bad as compared to other systems,why should i at all bother to look into the specs?

One thing i will agree though,they should provide specs at least on request.

@Deepak: As gobble has said,comparison of decision about automotives & that of audio systems is wrong because many of the auto specs(but not all) have practical implications in real world. Knowing processor speed is important for people working in that field. For me, celeron is still enough & there will be many others like me who dont understand what is meant by processor speed of 3GHZ &Underclock vs overclock etc.

So i am saying it again. Specifications are very important but only for those who exactly know what they mean. Not for an average user. Somewhere i read that 'SNR Of audio CD is 96db, so whats the point in buying an amp with SNR >100?CD will introduce distortion before amp can.' Now i dont know how much of its true.

Similar problem with DAC. I just dont understand 24/96,24/192,16/48 etc. Then there are upsampling DACs.
However i understood after reading a lot that as long you are using audio cd & not SACD/DVD Audio,16/44.1 is good enough. So i stopped bothering about it.

All thats said & written is hearsay information for the reader. Your ears & ears are the best judge of any sound system playing in front of you.

I again agree that if Bose people dont give specs even
On request,then they have attitude problem. I will still ignore it if the sound is worth which according to many is not. So i will try to audition it in october in mumbai.

 

[deepakgang]

I see what you are trying to say. If I close my eyes and listen to 3 hi end speakers without knowing the brand name and say if I chose bose then no matter how crappy their specs look it doesnt matter. Its their attitue which pisses audiophiles off.
Average customer might not care but I take the definition of Audiophile from WIki - 'Audiophiles prefer to listen to music at a quality level that is as close to the original performance as possible using high-fidelity components'. So its at that time the specs matter while defining the distortion and range. A speaker might sound bad for a song as compared to bose - it might be because its a terrible recording



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I have copied the below from the official bose forum when a guy wished to buy a speaker from them and their response to that:

Q:

I have a subwoofer that has freq response of 38hz-180hz +/-3db and I am looking at a Bose VCS-10 center channel speaker to use with my subwoofer.

Here is the problem, since Bose will not tell me the freq response range of the vcs-10, I have no way of knowing if I will have a large hole in the freq response in my system. Lets say that the vcs-10 has a freq response of 380-17khz, that would mean I will not hear any sounds that are in the 180hz to 380hz range.

Here are a few instruments that product notes in that range: cello, violin, bassoon, trombone, clarinet, french horn. So with the vcs-10 and my SW, I will not hear any notes from those instruments that are in the range.

Bose's premise is to buy the vcs-10 and see how it sounds, well it may sound fantastic, but I will never hear certain notes played by those instruments. While the notes I do hear may sound great, I would like to hear ALL of the notes.

What would you suggest I do in this case since Bose will not tell me the freq response of the vcs-10? Are you able to tell me the freq response(with +/-db) of the vcs-10?

Please help. Thanks..


Ans:

As discussed earlier in this thread we typically don't publish specs unless there is good technical reason and a well-defined measurement method that qualifies the specification.

This being said, the VCS-10 will work fine with a 180 Hz subwoofer.


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[Cnu]

Being a novice i did a big crime of asking the point why people hate bose...i never thought this will lead to hurt emotion's of some peoples...i stressed so many times but very few considered it and others quoted example of other models...i have not heard any other model except Bose companion 5 and wen i and my friends (around 6) heard it...bose felt nice to them and even i havent heard any distortion...so thats being the reason why i considered it to be discussed(positively)...i understand that you ppl are audiophiles and you knw where bose looses its quality...as Mr Square Wave said that they have programmed dsp so that they aim at producing distortion free instead of producing the original sound...im very much convinced by his opinion(Post 32)....that really i feel the difference...as i felt that when again i heard the system...Thank you all for their inputs for making me clear about this...cheers

 

[just4kix]

I am unsubscribing from this thread.

 

[sups]

Being a novice i did a big crime of asking the point why people hate bose...i never thought this will lead to hurt emotion's of some peoples...i stressed so many times but very few considered it and others quoted example of other models...i have not heard any other model except Bose companion 5 and wen i and my friends (around 6) heard it...bose felt nice to them and even i havent heard any distortion...so thats being the reason why i considered it to be discussed(positively)...i understand that you ppl are audiophiles and you knw where bose looses its quality...as Mr Square Wave said that they have programmed dsp so that they aim at producing distortion free instead of producing the original sound...im very much convinced by his opinion(Post 32)....that really i feel the difference...as i felt that when again i heard the system...Thank you all for their inputs for making me clear about this...cheers

Hey Cnu, I think the crime is not on your part. Its actually on my part when I tried to enquire what EXACTLY are the drawbacks of Bose sound system with respect to its rivals.

 

[sbg]

Being a novice i did a big crime of asking the point why people hate bose...i never thought this will lead to hurt emotion's of some peoples...i stressed so many times but very few considered it and others quoted example of other models...i have not heard any other model except Bose companion 5 and wen i and my friends (around 6) heard it...bose felt nice to them and even i havent heard any distortion...so thats being the reason why i considered it to be discussed(positively)...i understand that you ppl are audiophiles and you knw where bose looses its quality...as Mr Square Wave said that they have programmed dsp so that they aim at producing distortion free instead of producing the original sound...im very much convinced by his opinion(Post 32)....that really i feel the difference...as i felt that when again i heard the system...Thank you all for their inputs for making me clear about this...cheers

Cnu, Its good that you have questions and somthing are put on these forums for everyones enlightnment.The reasons for this is that , how do we know that over the years if Bose is realy making some efforts to honour people who "question" thier products put in the "marketplace" - is'nt this a offer to the general public to purchase their product and not a private invitation.

anyway,I thought these may also be availabe with our Google unty, see what I found .
search:"why I hate bose"
About 6,670,000 results (0.18 seconds)
search:"why I love bose"
About 26,300,000 results (0.14 seconds)
nearly more than 4 times the results for people who love bose.
but there is a difference. for the first 14 to 18 pages in the hate category - most of them are from "audio" related forums, while the other has results from pratically all social blogs(including audio blogs too).

the point is,if you do make your contributions positively, there is a lot for the common world.

 

[Hiten]

Cnu, I am not an audiophile. But on the holy path audiophile pilgrims are traveling the unwritten rules and enlightened wisdom is that in audio amplification idea is to amplify audio signal to its truest form and with least manipulation and exact sound reproduction. This may tell you why people hate bose. Even after this don't come to any firm conclusion learn and audition some more (in some cases few years) and decide. But ensure that you enjoy music while doing this.