Yet another dedicated home theater build :)

[rdksrk2013]

Excellent to say the least!

Wonderfull !!:clapping:

 

[gcpraveen]

wow... very nice setup... which part of bangalore you are from??

 

[quakerme]

wow! that's a super setup congrats!

 

[john_k_antony]

wow... very nice setup... which part of bangalore you are from??

I am located near K.R. Puram. The name of the place is "Kurudu Sonnenahalli". My layout is right opposite to Skylark Arcadia Villas.

- John.

 

[ravidharap]

Nice setup sir

 

[Swamy_HT]

Update - 03-Sep-2013

The build is complete and the room is ready with equipment in place. Projector is fixed and is calibrated.

Speakers needs to be calibrated for distance and sound level. Will use Audessey for just measuring the distance and setting the channel level. I will also use a SPL meter.

I have some interesting observations after doing all the acoustics and some surprising myth busters . I will share them soon.

Here are some pictures. The quality of pictures is pretty bad as the room has very little light.


Thanks,
John.

Is it Home theater or Discothe club man?
Excellent thought on Full black front coverage and the RED light to bring ambience when required. I think this is is one of the BEST HT in the forum.

Please share about your interesting observations you have mentioned here.

 

[john_k_antony]

I am actually breaking in my speakers and Oppo. Both needs around 100 hrs of break in.

Initial impressions

1. Echo and exaggerated bass is gone. I am getting almost flat highs and mids. Earlier I was getting exaggerated or bright highs. Now the highs are pretty smooth. I think for some tracks, it is slightly towards the dull / overly warmer side. I will wait for the speakers to break in. If it still sounds slightly dull after 100 hours on speaker, I might start adding more reflection on the side walls by removing some absorbing panels and replacing them with reflective panels.
2. Dialogs in movies are crystal clear and distinct. Very happy with this.
3. Sound stage from 2 channel stereo using the my Denon AVR is pretty good. Was not expecting this . So its a bonus.
4. Due to the above findings, I think I can go easy on my dedicated stereo setup as the stereo sounds pretty decent with the current setup.

Some of my myths that got busted after this experiment.

Myth - 1 : You need huge floor standers to fill a room of 400 sft area.

I found this completely wrong. Just a pair of KEF Q300 bookshelves created a wonderful sound stage and it filled my room very effectively. These speaker are driven by 105w/ch Denon AVR. I am now thinking that I can go in for a good stand mount speaker for my dedicated 2 channel setup. I am not seeing a need for a big floor stander. The bass for 2 channel stereo was adequate except for Rock and Heavy Metal. I needed a tad bit of sub woofer to complement KEF Q300 for Rock and Heavy Metal. I set the subwoofer cross over at 40hz only for Rock and Heavy Metal.

Myth - 2 : Corner bass traps are highly effective in controlling bass.

I found this not very correct from my experience. I read about the in efficiency of corner bass traps of 6-8" depth that can effectively controll bass as bass tones wave length is very high. I think this is right. I have 6" corner bass traps in all the four corners and though it did control boominess to a larger extend, I still can get peaks and nulls in some points of the room. I was expecting a perfect bass in all places in my room, but I still get some peaks and nulls. So I was not spending crazy money on bass traps and I think it was good decision at the end. I think doing anything more fancy on the bass traps is waste of time and money.

Myth - 3 : You need bipole/dipole for surrounds for better diffused surround sound.

In my case this is also not right. I am using monopoles for my surround and rear surround - KEF Q100. I have placed all the surround speakers 6.5 feet above floor and it creates a wonderful surround stage. I set the sound levels using an SPL meter and now I get a near perfect movie sound stage that gets you "into" the movie. I only tried 5.1 so far. Need to check a 7.1 BluRay now.

Myth - 4 : You need a "dedicated" center channel for better dialog clarity from movies.

This is totally wrong according to me. I have a dedicated center speaker - KEF iQ60c and when compared to KEF Q300 bookshelf for center channel performance, mainly on dialog clarity, I found it NO better than a KEF Q300 bookshelf. I have 3 x KEF Q300 as my L-C-R. The front sound stage it creates is PERFECT. The dialog clarity from KEF Q300 is superb. I did an experiment to use a normal bookshelf as a center channel after consulting various forums and I am very happy with the decision and more than happy as I saved some money on not getting a more expensive "dedicated" center channel speaker.

I will share more listening experience as I spend more time and my electronics and speakers are broken in.

Thanks,
John.

 

[sdurani]

I was expecting a perfect bass in all places in my room, but I still get some peaks and nulls.

Perfect bass in all places in the room is a physical impossibility. The best you can hope to do is use sub/speaker placement to reduce the largest room modes/resonances (standing waves) in the room so that it minimizes peaks & dips from seat to seat. Minimizes, not eliminates.

In your room, that would mean centering the woofers of your L/R speakers 31 inches in from the side walls AND crossing over at 60Hz (which is between the first 2 width modes of your room).

Since you have a single subwoofer, midpoint of room width is the most useful location. If you ever get a second sub, spread them out 93 inches apart.

BTW, I agree with all 4 of your myths: I use identical bookshelf speakers all the way around (no floorstanders), control bass using placement (not corner bass traps), use direct radiating monopole surrounds (not bipole or dipole), and my centre speaker is identical to my L/R speaker (not one of those dedicated horizontal centre speakers).

But you left out the biggest myth of all:

I am actually breaking in my speakers and Oppo. Both needs around 100 hrs of break in.

 

[john_k_antony]

Hey Sanjay,

Thank you very much for the real informative message. What you say makes perfect sense regrading the bass. I just experienced it in real . My sub is placed in the center of the room and I think that is the best place for now.

Regarding the break in for new speakers, is it really a myth? . Numerous people have told me about the need for the same, including Sean Casey who is the owner and chief technical head of Zu speakers. I had the privilege of meeting him in person last time I was in US. He really told about the way speakers changes sound initially out of the box, after the voice coil loosen up and also based on the temperature.

I still don't believe in the break-in for electronics like my Oppo player. Though every owner of Oppo 105 said that their player's analog out started giving great sound great after 100 hrs of usage.

However I have found the need of warm-up time needed for both SS and Tube gear to sound the best. I have seen my Acoustic Portrait SS power amp takes around 35-40 minutes to warm up and also my Oppo player's analog out started sounding good after 25-30 mins of warm up. However Oppo's digital out (HDMI) doesn't need this warm up time. It sounds the same right from the start up.

Thanks,
John.

 

[sdurani]

There are two things about break-in that make it obvious that the phenomenon is taking place in the listener's head:

1. Break-in always causes a change for the "better". When you buy an electronic device that is going to undergo a change, that change has a 50/50 chance of going either way: the sound could either go towards what you like or the sound could go away from what you like.

But break-in is always reported as changing the sound so you prefer it more. How does that device happen to know what you like, so that it can change in that direction only?

2. Break-in always stops when you're satisfied with the change. Whenever I hear stories of amps breaking in, they go from cold and edgy to warm and smooth. I'll often ask the owner if his amp has continued to break-in; i.e., continued to get warmer sounding to the point where the treble has rolled off too much.

Of course, the answer is always no. How does the amp know how much warmth you like, so that it can stop changing when you are happy with the sound and not keep going past that point?

So, one of two things is going on: either an electronic device knows what you like so that it can physically change to reproduce that particular sound AND it stops the physical transformation to not go past your personal preference or...

...or you're simply getting used to it.

Audiophiles find the notion that we humans could get used to a piece of gear to be such an unreasonable idea, that they'd rather believe the physical change is happening as described above.

 

[john_k_antony]

...or you're simply getting used to it.

Makes sense to me. I have been thinking about it and I guess what is happening here is that we are getting used to the sound and we feel that the our gear broken in and is sounding better to our taste.

The whole break-in thing could be a marketing gimmick, that even if the audio product sounds crap or not liked by the end user in the beginning, the product company is actually asking the user to try it for a longer time by telling you that their product needs to be "broken-in" for it to sound the best. And as you pointed out, the user start getting "used" to the product as they use it for a longer time and start to feel that the audio gear has started to sound better!

Real food for thought though .

Thanks,
John.

 

[Swamy_HT]

Initial impressions.....

Myth - 3 : You need bipole/dipole for surrounds for better diffused surround sound.

In my case this is also not right. I am using monopoles for my surround and rear surround - KEF Q100. I have placed all the surround speakers 6.5 feet above floor and it creates a wonderful surround stage. I set the sound levels using an SPL meter and now I get a near perfect movie sound stage that gets you "into" the movie. I only tried 5.1 so far. Need to check a 7.1 BluRay now.

What do you mean by 'Near perfect', I thought KEF is the top most in MID range interms of audio quality. Is it missing something? Do you think, Still you need somethig for the immersive sound field?

Just for curiosity, since KEF is in the top list of my sort listed audio. (Future setup).

Thanks.

 

[sdurani]

The whole break-in thing could be a marketing gimmick...

Some of those recommended break-in times might take you past the return period so that after it has fully broken in you're stuck with it.

BTW, warming up a tube amp for 20 minutes is different from the audiophile break-in phenomenon being discussed (where you supposedly end up with a different sounding device after 100 hours).

Also, the rubber surrounds on speaker cones have been known to loosen up and become more compliant (less stiff) after use. Since they are moving parts, it's understandable why some people think of that as break-in.

However, whenever anyone has done before/after measurements, it turns out that the loosening up happens within minutes and if you leave the speaker unused overnight it goes back to its pre break-in state. Seems the best way to break in a speaker is to simply use it.

 

[john_k_antony]

What do you mean by 'Near perfect', I thought KEF is the top most in MID range interms of audio quality. Is it missing something? Do you think, Still you need somethig for the immersive sound field?

Just for curiosity, since KEF is in the top list of my sort listed audio. (Future setup).

Thanks.

Well for my ears they are 100% perfect . But I don't want to generalize that statement. KEFs are amazing speakers for mid range. Again its subjective. Few of my friends prefer Polk sound to KEF for movies. But my ears were never able to withstand Polk sound.

Thanks,
John.

 

[john_k_antony]

One more quick and very surprising update

I have been using KEF iQ7 FS for the past 4 years. I used it with Denon AVR first and then added an used Acoustic Portrait 70 w/ch power amp. I always felt the bass from those speakers were very very less. I was almost planning to dispose it off. Today, I just tried my KEF iQ7s in my dedicated room. I just CANNOT believe the way they opened up. Everything else in the chain remained same, only the room changed. I just moved them from my big and open Living room to this acoustically treated listening room. Boy, the sound stage and bass it produced is unbelievable. I felt like I got myself a very expensive pair of speakers . What a turnaround. I still can't believe it. I was almost going to spend some huge money on my speaker and amp upgrade. With today's revelation, I don't think I need to upgrade anything for now for my 2 channel setup.

Now I will add my DIY Pass B1 Pre and DIY CNC Phono stage paired with my restored Dual 1019 with AT 120 cart. I think I will be done with my HT and Stereo setup for a quite some time

This is my stereo chain and they sound perfect for me.

Oppo 105 analog out -> Acoustic Portrait 70w/ch power amp -> KEF iQ7.

I feel the bass is going little over board and I need to close the bass port with the factory provided sponge. Never in my wildest dreams I thought my KEF iQ7 will produce so much bass and fuller sound stage. I am thrilled :yahoo:

Now with this experience, I can underline and state that - Your listening room is equally important as rest of your audio gear. If you have a good "sounding" room, a cheaper set of audio electronics will sound equally good to a more expensive set of audio electronics placed in a non treated room.

-John.

 

[rdksrk2013]

Hello John,

Good job of sharing your experience with us about how important a little bit of acoustic treatment in the room with acoustic material or by placement of speakers.:clapping:

You have re-einforced the strong belief time and again experts like @sdurani keeps proposing on this and other blogs.

Great revelation !

 

[olly42]

Good Stuff John thanks for the detailed step by step process Awesome

 

[john_k_antony]

A short video of my room

20130907012843 - YouTube

 

[Rupam]

Thanks john, really drooling stuff. Passion fulfilled !

 

[Swamy_HT]

Another Q: You are already got 100% sound immersion with 5.1, Then what is the additional use of 7.1. If you could test a same source in 5.1 & 7.1 versions and share your result could be more appreciated. It may help me on deciding some buying factor.

Thanks in advnce john.