Your inputs, please

I got the Pioneer 930 today. I will play my reference material on my Yamaha first and then connect the Pioneer for comparison. Will keep you guys updated. Let me know if you want me to do something specific and I'll try my best

Congratulations! That is good buy.

What I would like you to do is the following:

1. Look for headroom when regular sound levels at listening position are around 65-70db.
2. Look for sound quality and separation of sound in complex movie tracks. If you have the Avengers, the first chapter is a good bet. Furious Five, where the safe is dragged across the road should be another good bet.
3. Listen to music and see how it sounds. I have a lot of favourites, but I am sure you have your own. My current favourite is Rabba from Heropanti.
4. See how the 930 plays FLAC and wave files from a stick drive.

Cinebels does NOT have the 5010 on demo. I have to look for some other shop.

Cinebels has invited me to audition the 7008. One Mr. Sathish assures me the sound quality is the same. Let me see.

Here is an interesting note from AVS forum.

"What about these Denons vs. the extremely similar Marantz models?

It's a well known fact that, for several years now, the Marantz AVR models are essentially Marantz-o-fied clones of Denon receivers. If you compare the layout of the back panels, the manuals, the GUI design, settings and features, etc. they are essentially the same. The difference comes down to mostly market positioning, with Marantz utilizing its legacy as a more "audiophile" brand to offer some niche features that may appeal to critical music listening and/or analog fans.

In most cases -- e.g. the Denon AVR-X2200W vs. the Marantz SR5010 -- the platform is the same, with the Marantz coming in at a slightly higher price point for the same basic features ($100 extra msrp in this case). What you get for that extra outlay is (1) Marantz's proprietary HDAM analog circuitry, which is said to improve transparency and fidelity; (2) multichannel 7.1 analog input for connecting a high end SACD player or something; and (3) pre-amp outputs at a lower price point, for connecting external amplifiers.

In nearly every other respect, consider them identical."

Marantz-o-fied clones? Wow!! That is some hard statement.

Cheers
 
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Will do. Venkat sir, i must warn you that i'm not much of an audiophile and do not have great ears. But i am able to recognize that Indian movie songs sounded much more buttery smooth on my earlier Magnat speakers than on my current Klipsch speakers. The song phases in English movies would melt my heart on the Magnat but not so on my Klipsch. But the Klipschs have great midbass, vocals and sharpness are great for action movies and they play really loud which i love. With that background, i will now go into testing the 930 vis-a-vis my Yamaha and the Pioneer LX-57/87 that i heard recently.
 
Here is an interesting note from AVS forum.

"What about these Denons vs. the extremely similar Marantz models?

It's a well known fact that, for several years now, the Marantz AVR models are essentially Marantz-o-fied clones of Denon receivers. If you compare the layout of the back panels, the manuals, the GUI design, settings and features, etc. they are essentially the same. The difference comes down to mostly market positioning, with Marantz utilizing its legacy as a more "audiophile" brand to offer some niche features that may appeal to critical music listening and/or analog fans.

In most cases -- e.g. the Denon AVR-X2200W vs. the Marantz SR5010 -- the platform is the same, with the Marantz coming in at a slightly higher price point for the same basic features ($100 extra msrp in this case). What you get for that extra outlay is (1) Marantz's proprietary HDAM analog circuitry, which is said to improve transparency and fidelity; (2) multichannel 7.1 analog input for connecting a high end SACD player or something; and (3) pre-amp outputs at a lower price point, for connecting external amplifiers.

In nearly every other respect, consider them identical."

Marantz-o-fied clones? Wow!! That is some hard statement.

Cheers

If they claim to be from the same company D&M holdings. the better be sharing a lot of tech, parts and enhancements.
Cross pollination is always a wholesome phenomenon. The goal should be to maximize the positives and minimize the negatives.
I would not be surprised that 2 similarly spec'ed/featured models share parts on the PCB and power supply.

But you have to hand it to Denon AVRs for offering the latest formats first. This line is the risk taking line and the Japanese are very clear that Denon takes the credit for success or failure.
Marantz AVRs in comparison are from the safe play line. No wonder there are very few Marantz models that excel in price/performance ratio.
They are good but not great as compared to Denon when it comes to VFM.

Disclaimer: I have a soft spot for Marantz as I own 2 of their products

Cheers,
Raghu
 
HDAM circuitry and better electrolytic caps may be one area where there is less cross pollination.
Electrolytic caps are finicky, specially if chosen from the generic lot of no name companies. I have had quite a few blow up on me during my HW engg days (designing modems and FPGA boards).
I think there is still lot of sharing in the input, sound processor, passives, connectors front.
If I were in the procurement division of D&M, I would like to see at least the non-critical, non-proprietary, non-signature, non-USP elements of the circuit and connectors to exactly the same across lines and categories.
Supply chain logistics becomes simpler, thus reducing production costs of multiple lines. Unless D&M OEMs their HW production to a vendor in China and supply chain is their headache.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Cinebels has invited me to audition the 7008. One Mr. Sathish assures me the sound quality is the same. Let me see.
Cheers

I think 7008 is 2013 model.. But it has Audyssey Multi EQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT which is better than Denon X 2200's Multi EQ XT... My guess is that 7008 should be the same as 6010 in movie performance...
 
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I think 7008 is 2013 model.. But it has Audyssey Multi EQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT which is better than Denon X 2200's Multi EQ XT... My guess is that 7008 should be the same as 6010 in movie performance...

I will use the 7008 only for understand how the Marantz sounds. After that it will be a leap of faith to buy the 5010.

Cheers

The comparison

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feature | Marantz 5010 | Denon 2200
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HDCP 2.2 & HDMI 2.0a | 8 Ins / 2 outs | 8 ins / 2 outs
DSP | Quad Core DSP | Quad Core 32 bit DSP
Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 | Yes | Yes
DTS:X | firmware update | firmware update
Power (into 6 ohms) | 185x7 | 155x7
Power (into 8 ohms) | 100x7 | 95x7
Bluetooth/Wi-Fi | Yes | Yes
ISFccc Certification/Calibration | Yes | Yes
Multi zone/multi source audio | Yes | Yes
L/R Preouts | 7 | 0
Audyssey MultEQ XT | Yes | Yes
Dual subwoofer outputs | Yes | Yes
Analog Inputs | 7.2 | 4.0
PreOuts | 7.2 | 2.2
Networking: AirPlay, etc. | Yes | Yes
ECO mode | Yes | Yes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did a quick comparison of the 5010 and 2200. The 5010 sites between the 2200 and the 3200. It has some 5 watts additional power, pre-outs (on all channels). Otherwise, it is identical to the 2200. Wonder whether it is worthwhile paying 10K more for that. The Marantz is being quoted at 80K. If it sounds better, I hope I can beat the dealer down to 75K. Then, it will make immense sense.
 
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Did a quick comparison of the 5010 and 2200. The 5010 sites between the 2200 and the 3200. It has some 5 watts additional power, pre-outs (on all channels). Otherwise, it is identical to the 2200. Wonder whether it is worthwhile paying 10K more for that. The Marantz is being quoted at 80K. If it sounds better, I hope I can beat the dealer down to 75K. Then, it will make immense sense.

Juz curious why you aren't considering the 6010.. It is 7.2 AVR with 9.2 pre-outs.. so 5.2.4 (or) 7.2.2 is possible without altering your setup..

If you are considering the 5010 based on budget then fine...
 
If I am going to 100,000 and above, the Pioneer SC-LX59 is decided. I don't think any of these can come near that in terms of technology and capabilities.

I am try to peg my spend to under 75k. At least, for now. My wife is showing a lot of interest in this, and may demand a equal spend for her!! :)

And, I have to spend close to 100,000 on medical, car, and other insurances. Why is that we never have enough money!!:mad::mad:

Cheers
 
Spousal non-spending insurance, now that's an idea you can pitch to the insurance companies. If the companies bite, you can get the extra 25K to fill the gap.
Cheers,
Raghu
 
Alright, i'm ready with my first thoughts on the Pioneer vsx 930. First i'll vent - is there anything more frustrating than pushing speaker wires through terminals behind the receiver? In tight spaces, this is such a problem.
Before i wired up the Pioneer, i went through the demo material on my Yamaha 473. This took all morning and helped me freshen up my impressions. This along with my recent audition of Pioneer LX 57 and 87 was my reference.
My demo material -
THX demo disc 2014 blu ray
Krrish 3 blu ray
Talaash Audio CD
I wired up the Pioneer, pushed in the THX demo disc and fired it up. Volume started at some -80 and i pushed it up until -20. Thoroughly underwhelmed. There was volume and body but it did not sound too different from my earlier receiver. There was some muddiness mainly from the subwoofer and the LCR did not "sparkle". But i was encouraged mainly because there was tremendous "body" in the sound. You know, the difference between a Verna and an i10 - both do 100 kmph but the Verna does it effortlessly. It feels very planted and you feel that you could drive it faster easily and that the engine is kinda relaxed but the i10 you know you are pushing it and you don't want to keep it at that speed too long. It's that kind of difference i'm talking in comparison to my older receiver. So you could feel that it had more power but the overall experience, while certainly decent, was nothing to rave about.
I usually do not run room correction. It's mostly to do with a sense of "losing control", not sure what the receiver is doing or why. I ran the Pioneer room correction. It is an elaborate process that not just attempts to correct the speaker distances and levels but also standing waves etc from the sub. It took around 7-10 minutes. After the auto setup, i went into speaker setup and attempted to correct (minor) few things like distance, level etc. Did not want to tinker too much but just tweaked some outliers. The pioneer shines in this area and lets you do the level change while emitting test tone continously so that you know what you are doing. This is true for subwoofer too. Very helpful.
I again put the THX demo disc and pushed the volume up to -10. The first track is the "THX cavalcade". This has a steady sound and then a sudden burst of volume (Venkat sir, i guess this is what you called the headroom) and in one word it was stunning. The treble was very sweet and the impact was in another league. Then came what i call one of the most challenging tracks in that disc - The hunger games scene where Jennifer Lawrence runs through the woods in a hail of fireballs. This is special because there is low rumble throughout the scene and used to be unbearable in my old setup (it was bettered with sub placement but was still not very comfortable). That scene was a cake walk after the auto correction. Somehow the rumble was gone and the scene was entirely watchable. I used to dread this scene before.
Next came what are my favorite show off tracks of this disc -
The arrow battle scene in the movie "Hero"
The sword cutting through wood planks scene in the movie "Hero"
The drums scene in the movie "House of flying daggers"
Man - these totally blew me to bits. What i found terrific was the sound decay. The sound was crisp and sharp with no hint of lingering. The sound field was so dramatic - both in the drums scene and the arrows flying scene. In the drums scene, the villain (appears to be) throws few pebbles into the circle of drums and they bounce from one drum to the other. This was so realistic, the volume so loud and the sound so crystal clear - i was spellbound. I can bet no commercial movie theater can beat my system in this scene. The sound was muscular, authoritative and effortless - i have the confidence i could have driven up the volume by another 10 ticks on the dial and it would still be as effortless. The best part was what was done to my sub - it doesn't give me a headache now. It is not as prominent as before and i don't think it should be. It comes alive when needed and then disappears.
When i played "Dil tu hi bata" from Krrish 3 i could sense a lot of mid bass from the front speakers but not much from the sub. I checked the settings again and saw that the LCR were set as "large" by the MCACC. I left it at that. The song played wonderfully but it is not the best that i have heard this song. I should blame the sub for it - maybe i need to tweak the settings a little bit more.
I played "Jee le zara" from Talaash in stereo and again the sound was fantastic. The gruffness in the voice of the male singer, the bass and the instruments came out very well but as i said, i'm not a critical listener of music so i can only tell that it was wonderful.
So what do i think overall? I think i have found what i was hoping i'll find and that is not something i'd say easily. Let me tell you that i could find no reason why LX 57/87 could be better than this. In fact for my room, i found this better than my LX 57 audition at the dealer and the equal of 87. It could be the speaker or the room or the setup but in my room the Pioneer 930 sounded better than what the LX 57 sounded at the dealer's - keeping in mind that the dealer was not technically well versed.
This was a great deal for me (you won't believe the price) but without warranty etc. I feel this buy will keep me happy for a very long time. Both Venkat and DNI's Alex were right - the 930 would be more than enough for my room which is 13 x 14 ft (Venkat's opinion on the power delivery of class D amps). I will write more once i have watched more movies on this setup.

Some pics attached-
Size in comparison to my Yamaha 473
 

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Did some more calibration today. Changed all "large" speakers to small. Adjusted some speaker levels and the subwoofer level. The sound has changed somewhat and i want to explore more. The MCACC pro has a lot of settings including subwoofer eq. I will experiment more. I watched more clips today - Band of Brothers battle scene was simply stunning, the sound is crisp, clear and accurate. At a volume of -10 (max being +12), sound fills the room with reference volume levels and i can sense no strain.
On the negative side, the remote feels tacky and plasticky. You need to get out of playback to change any settings on the receiver. I haven't yet found my way around with the android control app - it's gorgeous but i find it confusing.
 
How many point calibration is MCACC Pro? What is the crossover point to speakers when you change from large to small?

I have never used a Sub eq.. Provide inputs if you can..
 
On the negative side, the remote feels tacky and plasticky. You need to get out of playback to change any settings on the receiver. I haven't yet found my way around with the android control app - it's gorgeous but i find it confusing.

The Android App is supposed to be excellent. Do use it and see if you can get used to it.

The Marantz Review

I am now thoroughly confused and, at the same time, near the end of my decision making.

Last evening, I landed at Cinebels on Moors Road in Nungambakkam. I was received by Mr. Satish Kumar, an extremely pleasant and knowledgeable gentleman.

I gave him a run-down of my requirements. They had a Marantz 7008 connected to Klipsch Reference 5.1 speaker set with a SW-115 sub woofer. The sub was monstrous enough to shake the walls in the demo room. For display they had a Vivitek projector and a 120 inch screen. The demo room was well set up, though they did not seem to have enough demo material.

I thought I will start with The Hunted, but the 3D Blu-ray player they had refused to play my DVD. My DVD was a Region 1 version, and I think the player was Region 3. Satish asked one of his assistants to take The Hunted to another demo room and try it there. In the meantime, we started with The Avengers Blu-ray disk.

The sound was very similar to that of the Denon, albeit a little softer. The dialogs were a mite clearer. But the best were two - one; the LFE was much better, and the video was far better. I am not sure this was because of the projector or the processing of the 7008. Either way, the images were both smoother and sharper.

The heavy breathing of Loki and Jackson as they sparred in the room was clearly audible. When the Tessaract opened up just before Loki's arrival, the sound had more weight. Through the first chapter, small sounds of background music were clearly audible, adding to the effect of the video. When Jackson walks down the long staircase to go where the Tessaract is held, you could hear his voice echoing and disappearing slowly. More important, the clarity of dialogs was phenomenal. You could understand each word clearly.

When Nick Fury goes down to the room where the Tessaract is being experimented on, he greets Dr. Selvig. Selvig moves away from the machine he is working on and just says 'Director'. Maybe because Stellan Skarsgrd (who plays Selvig) is a Swede, I always have to strain myself to understand the word. In the Marantz, the word was very clear and understandable.

By this time, Satish's assistant had brought down the other player that could play my The Hunted. Connecting that to the 7008, we started with Chapter 3 - No reverence. The crunch of twigs was clear as was the weight of the waterfall. Just like the Avengers, the sound of birds chirping was highlighted well and you could clearly hear the shriek of a bird as the hunters walked past the waterfall. This was over the rush of the waterfall and, to me, it sounded as if I heard that shriek for the first time. The image of the forest, with all it's sound was well presented by the 7008.

When Aaron starts circling around the hunters, his whispers were clearer and were what they were - whispers. The flight of the knife was slightly longer as you could hear it whoosing through the air.

Only two sounds were a little disappointing as compared to the Denon and Pioneer. When the knife thuds into the tree, I felt the sound was a little softer as the knife slices into the tree. And, when the hunter fires the first shot, the sound of the gun and it's reverberation through the forest was both shorter and softer. I like shorter decays in sound, so I am fine with it.

When Rabba was played, I requested Satish to use Pure Direct. The music was a bit softer as compared to both the Denon and Pioneer. Other than that, the sound was good, the separation was good, and the drum beats pleasant and un-exaggerated. The light tininess I heard in Arijiths voice was completely absent.

The Marantz uses a Burr-Brown DAC and so does my Asus Xonar STX that I hear regularly. Could that be the reason?

The choices now are Denon 2200, Marantz 5010 and the Denon 3200. The specs of the 5010 and 3200 are nearly identical as is the power output. Over the 2200, both have nearly 30 watts of additional power, HDR, and BT.2020 in video processing. The 5010 is priced nicely in between the two Denons. I did look at the 6010, but that is overspecced and is too expensive. As I said before, if I have to spend close to 100,000, I will go for the Pioneer 59.

I will most probably order the 5010 tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help.

Cheers
 
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The Marantz uses a Burr-Brown DAC and so does my Asus Xonar STX that I hear regularly. Could that be the reason?
Only ***8 marantz series uses Burr-brown DAC.SR7008 has Burr-Brown PCM1690 DAC .
Other models uses mostly AK chips(say AK4358VQ, newer uses 4458).
 
Other models uses mostly AK chips(say AK4358VQ, newer uses 4458).

Spiro, as far as I understand, the AK is used only in the 7010 and above. Models below that continue with the regular Burr-Browns. Not that I am complaining about it.

Two important threads for people who are looking for AVRs.

1. One is on class D Amplifiers. The word on the road is the Class D has come of age, and can be looked at as a viable replacement for Class AB. The Pioneer AVRs were the main torch bearers and have managed to win over real skeptics and blind supporters of Class AB.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/92-community-news-polls/1644153-class-d-amps-ready-prime-time.html

2. This is with reference to Onkyo. The company still seems to be struggling with it's heat generation and handling of HDMI. Since the HDMI boards are on the top, I presume the heat generated flows upwards and fries the HDMI board. In the US, Onkyo has acknowledged this issue (they are referring to a failed Network chip) and making amends. I wonder what they will do to their Indian clients.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...units-extending-warrranties-until-2018-a.html

I am glad I moved away from Onkyo, and Sash's option of the Pioneer is a good decision.

Cheers
 
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How many point calibration is MCACC Pro? What is the crossover point to speakers when you change from large to small?

I have never used a Sub eq.. Provide inputs if you can..
Not sure how many points, i do not have a lot of prev exp with room correction. When i change from large to small the x-over is set at 80 Hz. Subwoofer eq is like eq for any other speaker. The MCACC pro corrects the frequency output for sub at different ranges and you can tweak it according to your likes.
There are two ways to calibrate using MCACC - Full Auto and Auto. Full auto is where the system takes care of everything and is pretty simple. But "Auto" is for advanced users and it gives you a lot of choice. I have done "Full Auto" and will try the "Auto" option sometime during this week/weekend. There are a lot of options like standing wave correction, reverb correction etc which i need to play around with. I know what i want and i have the right test tracks to validate the results, so this should be a lot of fun and i hope i'll be able to get the results i want.
 
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Spiro, as far as I understand, the AK is used only in the 7010 and above. Models below that continue with the regular Burr-Browns. Not that I am complaining about it.

Thanks
No,earlier models used Asahi Kasei AK4358VQ
[ Marantz SR7007 / SR7008 ] Sintoamplificatori A/V

Even ***5, ***6 series uses AK. I have also checked SR5005 which has AK4358VQ.
The Official Marantz AV7005 Pre-Pro Thread - Page 10 - Blu-ray Forum

SR7010 use AK4458-
http://www.akm.com/akm/en/aboutus/news/20150917AK4458Marantz_001/
 
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Not sure how many points, i do not have a lot of prev exp with room correction. When i change from large to small the x-over is set at 80 Hz. Subwoofer eq is like eq for any other speaker. The MCACC pro corrects the frequency output for sub at different ranges and you can tweak it according to your likes.
There are two ways to calibrate using MCACC - Full Auto and Auto. Full auto is where the system takes care of everything and is pretty simple. But "Auto" is for advanced users and it gives you a lot of choice. I have done "Full Auto" and will try the "Auto" option sometime during this week/weekend. There are a lot of options like standing wave correction, reverb correction etc which i need to play around with. I know what i want and i have the right test tracks to validate the results, so this should be a lot of fun and i hope i'll be able to get the results i want.

My Onkyo AVR 818 which has Audyssey Multi EQ XT32 prompted me for 2 setup's.. A quick 3 point calibration & full 8 point calibration.. Whatever data collected by AVR, Audyssey doesn't allow customization..

I think Audyssey Multi EQ XT Pro provides 32 point calibration, thought not very sure.. Hence wanted to check on MCACC Pro...

Happy tweaking..
 
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