Your inputs, please

[venkatcr]

I am in need of a little help.

After enjoying the Onkyo 875 for quite some time, I plan to dispose it off and install a new receiver.

My HT consists of a high-end HTPC with Blu-ray and DVD drives, a Pioneer DVD player, and a high-end audio PC. I am looking at having a single receiver/amp to both see movies and listen to music. I have my heart set on a 20K tube based amp to go with my single driver speakers from Audire. That will be next stage in evolution.

My movie sources are Blu-rays, DVDs, and files. I see a lot of movies and have recently taken a shine to TV shows such as The Arrow, The Flash, etc.

My primary music source will be digitised audio files from my audio PC that has an Asus sound card. I am happy with that and have no intention of adding any other source or even a DAC in between.

The question now is to go again for Onkyo or switch to Pioneer AV. In Onkyo, I am looking at TX-NR747 or the TX-RZ900. In Pioneer, I am looking at VSX-930 or the SC-LX59. The prices are broadly comparative. The lower end (TX-NR747 and VSX-930) are around 70K. The SC-LX59 is around 135K while the TX-RZ900 is 170K.

My thought processes go like this:

1. I am quite used to and like the Onkyo sound. I believe the Pioneer sounds similar.
2. My interaction with Onkyo India, Chennai has not been very pleasant.
3. I wonder if Pioneer India has any support. But I will depend upon Raghu of Decibel for support.
4. Would the pure digital amplifier of Pioneer make any difference?
5. Has Onkyo resolved it's HDMI issues? I had to write some complicated code to get my 875 understand the DTS-HD and Dolby-TrueHD codecs.
6. Does Onkyo still have it's heat issues? I had to change the video card on my 875 because of the heat generated.

I know a lot of you will say why not Denon, Marantz etc. I am not really interested. In the mass market AV there are only 6 players - Onkyo, Sony, Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, and Denon. Over the last 12 odd months, I have heard AVRs from all these brands, and my ears always felt they liked the Onkyo sound more. So I am not going to lean towards any other brand. I also need a around 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms, two channels driven.

My query is - Pioneer or Onkyo?

Cheers and thanks in advance.

 

[sash]

Pioneer vsx 930 costs 59k on hifimart and 43 k from this Chennai seller on ebay
Pioneer VSX 930K 7 2 Channel AV Receiver With Dolby Atmos With Warranty | eBay
Sorry i do not have experience in both these brands but thought you should know

 

[raghupb]

If Onkyo sounded best to your ears then stick to it.
BTW, Pioneer AV is now a subsidiary of Onkyo.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[elangoas]

I have owned the Onkyo TX NR 818 for good 2.5 yrs (Lost it in a lightning strike, reinstating in progress :sad...It has clocked more than 8 hrs of usage a day on many occasions...I didn't face any over heating issue (or) HDMI board issue..

Also had a good listen to Pioneer VSX 1122 too with the same speakers...

I too love Onkyo, very closely followed by the Pioneer....

You haven't mentioned your choices for Auto Room Calibration...Audyssey? I think your choices will come down based on this too...

 

[venkatcr]

You haven't mentioned your choices for Auto Room Calibration...Audyssey? I think your choices will come down based on this too...

I think both Audyssey and MCACC are very good. So no issues there.

I am worried about product quality and more important, service. In terms of quality the SC-LX59 should be high.

Cheers

Pioneer vsx 930 costs 59k on hifimart and 43 k from this Chennai seller on ebay. Sorry i do not have experience in both these brands but thought you should know

I have no intention of buying anything from any online source. I shudder at the possibility of a DOA product and screaming and shouting at a vendor for a replacement. I will inspect the product at the dealer location and then get him to install and show it working at my place.

Cheers

Pioneer vsx 930 43 k from this Chennai seller on ebay

Pioneer is showing 66,990 on it's website. So 43K is highly suspect. Must be a smuggled unit or a refurbished one.

Cheers

 

[elangoas]

I think both Audyssey and MCACC are very good. So no issues there.

I am worried about product quality and more important, service. In terms of quality the SC-LX59 should be high.

Cheers

Onkyo recently dropped Audyssey from their AVR and have added Accu EQ which has not had any positive reviews compared to competing products... Onkyo 747 doesn't have Audyssey... In that case leaves you with Pioneer...

My friend owns the Pioneer VSX 1122 for a good two years time, so far he hasn't had any issues... He uses it for both music/movies...

 

[reju]

Hi Venkat... I have heard that VSX series had some hardware issues, and with no proper service backup it may be a concern?

On the other hand Onkyo India should be able to provide you good service, if needed?

 

[efernand1]

Hi

Why not look at other brands like Yamaha or Marantz? They are also good for music and movies......

 

[venkatcr]

Why not look at other brands like Yamaha or Marantz? They are also good for music and movies......

As I said in my first post, I have heard Yamaha and Marantz and a lot of other brands including Cambridge Audio, Anthem, etc. To my ears, the Onkyo beats them all hollow. I find the Yamaha too bright, and the Marantz too mellow.

Cheers

 

[gras4]

@venkatcr,

Couple of points on Onkyo ... I have enjoyed owning a NR609 for close to five years now. (I have loved the sound from the receiver).

1. HDMI issues - I didn't have any issues till December 2015 (it was self-induced since I had moved the receiver to a less ventilated shelf). My usage is around 3-4 hours almost everyday (and going upto 12 hours over many weekends). So if you can take care of the ventilation, you can expect the receiver to do well for a long time.

2. My recent service experience with Onkyo Chennai team was pretty good. Mine was a US bought one but they were ok to service it once I showed that the receiver was used in the US for some time and then I brought it back here. They did take 10+ days to diagnose (the rains came right during that time) but they fixed it and service was prompt in notifications etc. Given you are buying in India, you should expect even less hassle. (Not sure what the circumstances were when you mention not-so-pleasant experience with them).

Do post what you decide!

Cheers
Ram

 

[venkatcr]

2. My recent service experience with Onkyo Chennai team was pretty good. Mine was a US bought one but they were ok to service it once I showed that the receiver was used in the US for some time and then I brought it back here. They did take 10+ days to diagnose (the rains came right during that time) but they fixed it and service was prompt in notifications etc. Given you are buying in India, you should expect even less hassle. (Not sure what the circumstances were when you mention not-so-pleasant experience with them).

I had purchased my 875 from Dubai. When it had an issue within a few weeks of buying it, they did send an engineer, but he could not resolve the issue and I had to depend upon AV forums for a resolution. I can attribute that to technology beyond the engineer's knowledge. The resolution was a complicated EDID code.

But later on, when the HDMI card conked out, they wanted an astronomical 55K (in advance) to even look at the issue. After a few calls, they bluntly told me, 'we will not service items not purchased from us'. I went through a painful process of importing the card, getting it installed by an incompetent engineer in Chennai and burning the new card. Finally I had to carry the unit back to Dubai for them to give me a fix in a jiffy.

At the end of all this, I am really afraid to use the unit too much. I sit in a bloody cold room, so the unit does not heat up. And, I use the unit sparingly. At the end of the day, this does not serve my purpose at all.

Even recently when I was inquiring with Onkyo office about the new models, the sales guy was constantly up selling to the more expensive models, and kept saying, 'this model will not work for you'. Frankly, I had to gather a lot of mental strength to puff out close to 100K now to get back to watching movies with a smile on my face.

As I said, the while experience for me has been negative. From being a Onkyo lover, I have moved all the way to be an Onkyo hater. The only thing that is keeping me in their stable is my love for their sound.

I used to visit the Onkyo showroom quite regularly a few years ago. Now I am very reluctant to even step in.

Edit:

Is there anyone in Chennai with a Pioneer AVR that I could visit and audition?

Thanks

 

[Bharathram]

Venkat sir
Long time. Hope you are doing good. I remember when we spoke an year back about Audire speakers you mentioned you have separate setup for Movies and Music. So I assumed you had separate amps/receivers for them. But nevertheless, its good that you are planning revamp your setup now.

I understand that you had issues with Onkyo receiver just a week after you bought it in Dubai. But please don't let that one unlucky event disrupt your options of buying receiver outside India and bring them back here.

Onkyo receivers are atleast 50-60% costly here in India than in US ( even after including the import duty and shipping) . A month back for Thanksgiving in US there were some great deals running on onkyo receivers by Bestbuy, Amazon etc. Some of them might still be running (you might want to check).

Now a days there are professional international shipping agents like Hopshopgo etc. who take of everything buying till delivery (including customs).

I remember I told you this last year that I bought my Onkyo receiver in US last year during Thanksgiving and got it shipped by one of these agents and it was hassle free.

I would strongly suggest you please evaluate these options even if it requires you to wait for time till next holiday season in US. The last experience you had with Onkyo will not recur. Dont worry about it

 

[venkatcr]

Onkyo receivers are atleast 50-60% costly here in India than in US ( even after including the import duty and shipping) . A month back for Thanksgiving in US there were some great deals running on onkyo receivers by Bestbuy, Amazon etc. Some of them might still be running (you might want to check).

Bharath, I go to Dubai at least 4 times a year. I can easily pick up a unit from there and carry it back with me. But frankly, after the experience with 875 and Onkyo Chennai, I am very reluctant to do that.

Some interesting threads:

1. Read the last post here.

http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/25306-onkyo-tx-8050-network-stereo-receiver-2.html

2. Looks as if Onkyo has not solved it's heating issue

http://www.hifivision.com/surround-amplifiers-receivers/61705-heating-problem.html

I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Cheers

 

[elangoas]

Edit:

Is there anyone in Chennai with a Pioneer AVR that I could visit and audition?

Thanks

Yes.. One of the FM and my colleague has Pioneer has VSX 1122, but he has it only in 2.0 setup.. If you are fine with it, i will check with him and update here...

Bharath, I go to Dubai at least 4 times a year. I can easily pick up a unit from there and carry it back with me. But frankly, after the experience with 875 and Onkyo Chennai, I am very reluctant to do that.

Cheers

I remember a FM from Dubai/Kuwait who had purchased an Onkyo 828/838 for an unbelievable 30K in Dubai... So 747 should probably cost the same there...

Even i had purchased my Onkyo TX NR 818 from Kuwait. After loosing the AVR in lightning strike, i took it to Onkyo chennai (Oct 2015).. Initially they refused.. After few requests, they asked me for the original purchase bill, which i luckily had and they agreed to check the fault with an estimate....

There was on other FM who had a similar experience as me.. But he was able to get his 110V AVR serviced after producing the required bill (Nov 2015)...

I could sense some change in Onkyo service (Chennai) Attitude off-late...

If you still not convinced with Onkyo, i think you should consider picking the Pioneer LX from Dubai...

 

[spirovious]

1. I am quite used to and like the Onkyo sound. I believe the Pioneer sounds similar.

According to me Pioneer sounds little different than Onkyo. I heard Pioneer LX56 recently and it sounded warm.Yes power can be felt,but ultimate punch which Class AB amp give,that I missed.Some of the LX models have reported to sound brighter.So need to audition before buy.

Marantz new line seems to got improved with HDAM technology.So SR7009 can be considered even though preference is Onkyo.
May I know why anthem or Nad can't be the choice?

 

[Bharathram]

Ok Sir. Got it. You will have to take a call then. Personally I feel uncomfortable to pay almost double the money for the same receiver in India. But it definitely comes with some inherent risk. Take your time and decide

 

[venkatcr]

Yes.. One of the FM and my colleague has Pioneer has VSX 1122, but he has it only in 2.0 setup.. If you are fine with it, i will check with him and update here...

Please do.

Thanks

May I know why anthem or Nad can't be the choice?

Spiro, I have 'installed' a number of NADs. Though they are good in Audio, they have never been able to get a grip on AV processing. They don't sell enough quantity to spend on R&D. They have also been promising a modular structure for donkey's years.

I have heard the Anthem a number of times. Their set up is complicated, and their power is very low (what they call truthful).

Both, for the price, don't deliver anything more than a Denon or a Onkyo. The Japanese have a solid hold on the AVR market, and are truly defining the market. The Europeans and Yanks have no chance.

Cheers

This weekend I landed at Reliance Digital shop in Phoenix Market. As I was roaming, around I saw a number of Pioneer AVRs on the racks. I also saw a demo room segregated for HT.

On a lark I inquired with the manager whether he can show me a demo of the Pioneer AVRs. The only system they had was an HTP-RS49 that consisted of their lowest VSX-329 AVR connected to a 5.1 Andrew Jones speakers set.

I was shown a couple of clippings of Star Trek, Avengers, and a few other movies. I quite liked the sound that was sharp and precise. The center was a little weak, and I kept asking him to play some clippings with dialogues. Unfortunately he did not have any, and kept showing me clippings that had powerful surround sound. In any case, I think the system was not set up well, and a little adjustment in settings will solve the center sound issue.

I could not hear much in music as he did not have anything other that MP3s. I did listen to some 5.1 music on Blu-ray, but these were songs I never heard before and could not make any sense of the sound quality, though they did sound decent. I was surprised he did not have Hotel California which is kind of mandatory for demos!!

I quite like the sound of the Pioneer. I have started leaning towards it. Will take a bit more time and, if possible, some more demos before I commit. I am looking fondly at the Elite LX-59!! My wife nearly had a heart attack when she heard the price.

Cheers

 

[raghupb]

Please do.

Thanks


Spiro, I have 'installed' a number of NADs. Though they are good in Audio, they have never been able to get a grip on AV processing. They don't sell enough quantity to spend on R&D. They have also been promising a modular structure for donkey's years.

I have heard the Anthem a number of times. Their set up is complicated, and their power is very low (what they call truthful).

Both, for the price, don't deliver anything more than a Denon or a Onkyo. The Japs have a solid hold on the AVR market, and are truly defining the market. The Europeans and Yanks have no chance.

Cheers

Agree with the assessment of SE-Asia's strangle hold on AVRs.
US/EU players are at least 1-2 generations behind the Japanese, feature wise.
Even among Japanese say D&M holdings, Denon is usually ahead feature wise compared to Marantz.
Given the volume in entry and mid range AVRs, it makes sense for companies to put out new technology in such products and then bring it into the premium line after ironing out the little niggles.
If going for Onkyo/Pioneer look at the upper-mid/premium segment. Hopefully, they would have got their act together after 1-2 generations.

I have owned Pioneer and Onkyo products in the past and the build quality was very good. Don't know about the recent offerings. Onkyo/Pioneer were big names in 90s/00s in Indian market but have recently given way to Yamaha/Denon.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[spirovious]

I quite like the sound of the Pioneer. I have started leaning towards it. Will take a bit more time and, if possible, some more demos before I commit. I am looking fondly at the Elite LX-59!! My wife nearly had a heart attack when she heard the price.

Cheers

Again its between Class AB and Class D.I have heard pioneer vsx top model at FM place few year back and it were quite good in movies.music sounded little digital.
LX AVR are powerful,but just check if you like class D sound.

 

[venkatcr]

The Pioneer AVR VSX-930 has won this year's EISA award.

https://www.eisa.eu/awards/home-theatre-audio/11/european-ht-receiver-2015-2016.html#award

I am looking at it fondly. Has a reasonable price of about 60K with bill and warranty in India.

Cheers

Again its between Class AB and Class D.I have heard pioneer vsx top model at FM place few year back and it were quite good in movies.music sounded little digital. LX AVR are powerful,but just check if you like class D sound.

Spiro, the Pioneer Class D design was a risky venture for them. But it seems to have evolved nicely. Today the Class D design of Pioneer seems to deliver precision and accuracy with power that very few Class AB can deliver.

If you read the reviews for LX87, LX59, and even the VSX930, all the reviewers are in awe of the sound image created by these AVRs.

For me the Pioneer provides multiple advantages

• Sound close to Onkyo.
• iControlAV5. This is a fantastic control centre.
• Local support with multiple service centers
• High Power with low heat.
• SABRE Ultra DAC
• Video Scaling to 4K

I am waiting to take a demo of the LX59 and then I will order.

Cheers

Sash, I would guess Pioneer would be able to pump close to 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms with two channels driven. Remember you can never drive all 7 channels fully at the same time unless you create a test signal. That will never happen at home.

With what I have been able to read, since Pioneer uses Class D amplification, it is able to deliver actually more power than other AVRs. Last years SC-LX87 was adjudged the best in terms of sound quality and capacity to maintain power in all channels when needed. Pioneer is not going to let go of that capability.

What kind of pricing are you getting for Onkyo 747? That is about the only other AVR I am considering.

Thanks