Too late, you already started it!!
Whether Indian languages are mostly dialects or other indian languages like Hindi are underdeveloped is highly debatable. Only linguist and mathematician can analyze. There are recorded observations of speakers of sanskrit who use a highly technical lingo that rivals the most obscure scientific journals of today, where words have very precisely intended meanings in a context. People at NASA have discovered that Sanskrit is like a formal language with constructs suitable for artificial intelligence. (
NASA Sanskrit Report) Binary logic was invented in ancient India. (What business does a backward civilization have inventing such useless things)?
So why should the original sanskritized Hindi be deficient?
Or a heavily sanskritized language like Malayalam? Do you know that the seeds of Calculus came from the Madhavan school of mathematics in Kerala? (
Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Or read the book "Crest of the Peacock". The knowledge was carried to Europe by Jesuit priests where Leibnitz and Newton developed it further. Therefore it does not look like your view will hold much water.
That said, my statement about the benefits of Indian languages were based, not on scientific analysis but on attempts to understand some concepts where English clearly failed miserably and in a profound fashion. Also behind it is the knowledge that Europe was largely backwards and tailing Asia in technological progress until the turn of the 19th century. Most of you will read in great detail the day to day lives of a madam Curie or an Edison in school texts (and only about western minds whose photographs are hung all over the place) and be deluded that
only the west brought scientific and technological progress. There is a subtle form of propaganda aided by active suppression of facts - of the Chinese and Indian legacy in scientific and technological knowledge. In this deluded ignorance, it will be hard to believe that Indians (and also the Chinese) experimented with electricity, metallurgy, mechanics, aeronautics, marine science, architecture, chemistry, botany, agriculture, zoology, hygiene, health, science of sound and voice measurement of time, science of scripting, Geometry etc. Indeed we owe the west modern science - measuring a charge, calling it a coulomb, etc etc, but most of us do not realize that the west in turn owes its progress to Asia in many fundamental ways. They surged suddenly ahead in the 18th - 19th century standing on the shoulders of technological giants like China (and India), just like we surge ahead on western science today. If you notice they were quite backward scientifically until around the time the meeting with the East occurred and the exchanges began. Borrowing inventions improving them adapting them, and in turn China or India excelling over western ingenuity - this kind of cross pollination across cultures was rampant.
No single civilization can claim to have brought the gift of scientific progress to makind. However you will see the west always tries to claim so ...
In another thread I was very sarcastic about intellectual patents (and European ethics about it) because I see at the roots of this development - their quest to claim ownership for everything not theirs - from the land in America, to mis-appropriation of credit for many Chinese inventions and technological designs, and now they cry hoarse when the Chinese copy their designs and push at half the cost!! Its about politics for dominance disguised as ethics and morality - something they really succeed at befooling Indians with, given the west's (everything to the west of India i.e) history of repeat genocide up to the last decade
The truth very well may be -
Asia has in history, almost always held the quality and cost advantage over Europe! Well mostly, with exceptions perhaps!
This may not be a recent phenomenon!! Globalization may be some 1500 years old!! Europe only discovered it by chancing upon the sea routes in the last many centuries.
The other "pet style" of these propaganda pushers is to proclaim in advance repeatedly that all Indian pride is foolish pride, the stuff of the misty eyed romantic fool and wishful thinker motivated by that silly tribal instinct called patriotism. Sounds familiar?
If a person researches history for a hobby he is bound to dwell on it and talk about it. He is then promptly labeled as a fool by those who want the Indian to forget his past, his legacy and transform him into a new Englishman, albeit a brown one. Because in the last 5000 years, India has been conquered only for a few centuries of the total time!! That too if you ignore glorious accounts of Arab travelers or "reliable" western sources (try a purely Indian source, do you know any?), it was never total and complete domination over all parts as claimed!! So this source of strength has to be squashed, no point killing people. How many will you kill? Already tried over the last 1000 years. What better technique than to get Indians to abuse themselves, their past, their legacy, their "dirty oppressive culture"?
hyeah:
When you research and discover the many instances where Indian manufacturing and technology surpassed over European ones as late as 18th to 19th century, the question will come begging -
How can the people of a civilization with "deficient" languages (as you put it) achieve this? But I will leave that for you to ponder. When you actually discover for yourself about historical Indian Industry and
why the per-capita income of Indian workers was greater than those in Europe up to the 18th century Or why European shipbuilding (
"famous" for its historical naval exploits and might, but actually downright trivial and inferior compared to Chinese many many centuries before it) had to invoke protectionist measures at that time in the face of
superior shipbuilding from (Edit
mostly Mumbai and Dhaka. Then you will naturally ask - Where did the language to discuss technicalities of manufacturing, building and improving them to the point of exceeding build quality and durability over European products come from? In the absence of modern stress testing equipments or methods, how difficult it must be to observe and increase durability of Indian ships to last say a decade more than European ones?!!
And in the absence of a technical language?!!!! Did they speak in English? Were there absolutely no workers from Tamilnadu coast in Dhaka? Or those from Bengal in Mumbai? How did these underdeveloped "imbeciles" manage to improve anything?
Why was India (or her manufactured goods) the destination or aim that everyone made a beeline for in the last 1500 years? Why were historical Indian cities bigger better and more organized that Europeans ones? Where did the organization, town planning and architecture come from
without a good faculty of language? If economic prosperity and well being of people is the ultimate aim did not Indian languages suffice then?
Why not now?
You will see that the argument about deficiency of Indian languages falls flat in the face of more all round and holistic historical and socio-economic evidence. The only catch it it will take you years of dogged mental pursuit to explore the evidence for what I posted above!!
And I am afraid, the type of view-points you or alisarun express are the type nurtured very carefully through the tool of Propaganda. It is one that involves active suppression of India's true history and legacy besides repeatedly projecting books and magazine articles in the media limelight that push these flawed views . Like claiming that Indians learn
almost everything from the Greeks Babylonians or Europeans on the basis of even more flawed assumptions (the argument against which you will be lucky to discover thanks to the propaganda machine). You will read one book after another very expertly exposing how vedic astronomical knowledge was all flawed the the expertise imaginary - and unless you are lucky you will not find that book that points out the mistakes in these other books. A never ending quest that will leave you forever in doubt about the past and the truth!! A systematic and sustained campaign since pre-independence mind you. Yes there are ancient Sanskrit books titled to mean "Astronomical knowledge of the Greeks", but does anyone know the oath of Hippocrates has a parallel and older origin in Ayurveda? Or that Budhayan gave the equivalent of Pythagoras theorem 2000 years before him? Documents are lost, there is no proof,
so the absence of mathematical proof is construed that it was just a "somewhat unscientific" guess by an Indian, an anomaly.
Oh wait! He must have been a Greek visitor !! (write a book with glowing reviews about it and fool the Indians who never look up references in the bibliography first hand)!!
Learning about the great Sankaracharya? Sooner than later the flaws in his philosophy will be pointed out and then you will start doubting - was he really a super mind and that great? Is there really much to Hinduism after all? Oh well, after many months at researching him, you will be lucky to realize that all the theories supposedly expounded by him actually came from secondary sources many centuries later, and he never said the many things purported to come from him, or that he never founded any monastic order (although all the muths claim he founded theirs exclusively), was a rationalist etc etc.(By this time you have lost faith in your past, no problem - that's what they want
). We did not burn anybody because he said the Earth was round. The heliocentric model was predicted here, so was the mass of the earth correctly estimated to a few decimal places a 1000 years before Europe. If one doesn't know the wider dimensions about India's historical, plural cultural and economic past and how it really enabled and nurtured scientific thinking, it is easy to delude oneself into have such beliefs as you expressed about language. Because the logic of it all seems very rational if you start with flawed assumption accumulated over decades of brain-washing, ones that are too lengthy to be put in a brief post or usually simply taken for granted!
Coming back to propaganda (lets explore its dimensions), the other grave act of suppression that these propaganda "pushers" do is
never talk about genocide over centuries which was on such a scale that the one is America's paled in comparison. Like giving orders to hunt, chase and kill every boy over 8 years in a conquered town immediately after a battle or piling heaps of skulls of
non-believers. Gross punishment exceeding the crime was a regular occurrence. (For the skeptics I can quote the original sources from the books of Moghul courts. No numbers of course
) I can only marvel at how scientific and technological progress happened at all in the face of sheer overwhelming and sustained acts of terror in ones life - seeing your neighbor beheaded or limbs chopped of, the appalling injustice of it all.
Can anyone go back to finer intellectual pursuits after having experienced this or narrowly escaping this over a harrowing few days of hide and seek? The decline of scientific accomplishment in ancient Arab world with the rise of religion is well evidenced and documented but again suppressed -
again you only hear the opposite!! What it also probably did in India was to ensure that over centuries the populations at large saw little development where science mattered. Progress was however ensured by the other greatly suppressed fact of history - A huge slave economy (that will shatter the myth of equality purported by the west) consisting of captured men and women who toiled under fear of death and insane hardships to make a well oiled economic engine running, for trade made famous with the rest of the world. How many know that the Bhangi caste (they carry excreta on their heads with bare hands) arose out of captured Mogul POWs being employed to clean and serve the harems? Imagine (gross) Kargil heroes captured today suffering the same fate? You have heard of Sati - The queens in Rajasthan committed what was seen as a noble act to save themselves from repeat violations and a lifetime of enslavement. How many of you know that epidemic of Sati in its worst form (like today's dowry deaths) in the 19th century was practiced by Anglo-Indians who lost their Hindu values? You want un-impeachable evidence? Ask me. Who gets the blame?
Indian culture which had to be rescued by that British stooge Raja Ramohan Roy and the lessons for which are pushed down your throat in school textbooks!! But on that false pretext, paying homage to the Sati Goddesses in Rajasthan is banned!! Its exactly like banning all memorials in the name of or paying tribute to Kargil Martyrs!! Forget your history , or make them forget it!! Don't remember your past heroes lest future generations become inspired by them!!
Here it comes again in a more concise form -
We are unscientific, backward, oppressive, hopelessly doomed to suffer due to some innate deficiency in our psycho-pathology and our civilization! sounds familiar?
!! Another example, how many "proud" Goan's have heard the gory details of the Goan inquisition btw? If they knew what was done to their grandparents from day to day accounts they would stop feeling proud, become atheist and and never visit a "sacred" place of worship in their life for the next 10 generations!! But you may only read a dismissive summary at the best, if you try. And always with a clever twist repeated ad nauseum that Indian civilization has evil power structures and it is deficient in the more progressive aspects. Why is it that the average Indian never reads the truth about all this in spite of having read more than a few books on Indian history? Also if you look closely and notice further, you find that almost all Indian history writing is nothing but repeat acts of
verdict passing on Indian civilization in many different ways, with many seemingly diverse viewpoints expressed but all ultimately dwelling with just one perspective - evil power structures oppressing the downtrodden!! Narrow minded, un-holistic, one track minds with an agenda that parallels that other major import form the west -
Communism! Few English speaking Indians know that there is a towering intellectual with a stronger philosophical and intellectual foundation than a Marx or Engels or even Chomsky, with a more holistic approach towards transforming society than any European intellectual -
Shri Aurobindo. Not an import from over there, but local from here, although he beats most Europeans in their own education and Latin . Nobody reads him, at best you will read a snide remark about him by puny minds who dare not challenge his view points head-on because they cannot finish his books - No thanks to the success of the propaganda machine
. And oh yes!! The English speaking progressive minded modern "smartie" will never read his works as well even if his grasp of English is good enough - because he is not a
approved character by his other trusted sources in the press and media.
hyeah: He will read a lot of trash from lesser intellectuals of the west .. but Aurobindo?
NEVER! Not even for the sake of intellectual pursuit. But rather than confess his shallow complicity in double standards, he will profess ignorance. Aurobindo who??!!
hyeah:
Therefore is it really fair to blame Indian "culture" at all for its lack of scientific progress as compared to the west? The corrupt toll-gate and octroi mafia (read about tax collection in Mogul India) or the standards of policing today where innocents are tortured -
the pattern in modern Indian society is an exact replica and continuation of how Indians were policed for centuries since 1000AD. There is a historical context for everything and India's problems
are not as much cultural as a result of historical circumstances. For you will find that even in the very decade that every boy above 8 was slaughtered by the moguls, and the Goan inquisition happened, a ruler like Shivaji officially allowed the respective communities to setup their place of worship and practice their faith!!
So that is but one example of how Indian society has room for corrections the moment conditions allow for it!! And without the moralizing and fake ethics preaching of the west with the accompanying shrill screeching that happens in media -
all done with a vested agenda!! Do you think Shivaji did not know that such things happened? Yet, the paradox is that sections of people in society are made to be afraid of living in that fearsome possibility that might become a "
Hindu Nation". That tribal instinct is repeatedly invoked by the very media you trust, the herd mentality made stronger by raising the specter of a threat to their existence from the majority,
in the guise of protecting the minority from Indian culture!! Aaahem ...!
What if they find that there is no real threat to them? They might stray into "ancient Indian territory" and explore their past!!
Hence teach them to reject at all times, keep up the tempo with shrill screeching!! Cry Wolf!!
The flock of sheep that herds together stay together
!! Multiple agendas multiple goals all achieved by the Pot calling the Kettle black! :lol:
Anyways, I do not wish to dwell so much OT on this. The point of digressing was honestly to show the extent of propaganda, not score political points to an agenda. Those interested can research negationism in Indian history at your leisure. At the least read up on the Needham project that shows how much the world owes China for its technological marvels.
Fortunately in my intellectual domain these "pushers" have been identified (by other more accomplished thinkers), classified and tacked like flies moths and insects, their motives and innards examined.
Unknown to the common English speaking citizen in India, there is whole world of intellectual ferment out there they have no clue about. Because these debates and criticism of the western view point of mala-fide intentions is kept out view by the
syndicated scholarship of institutions controlled by the west or in the west, never cataloged for reference by future generations, never mentioned in academic periodicals. Pretend to sympathize but actually achieve your propaganda objective in the process .... Opposing viewpoints if any are only presented in a diluted form so the superior rationality of the western overseer ultimately triumphs in the debate. The average Indian English speaker watches CNN or BBC or visits crossword for his books and deludes himself into thinking he is a "modern" "progressive". But he is really a victim, easily fooled by the "pushers" for whom they queue up eagerly to swallow the sugar coated pill (Hyderabad fish medicine anyone?
). I know the trick, and here it is - first throw a lot of facts that look good to be true and win the readers trust. Once trust is implicit over time and the reader is a fan of the source of "analysis", slip in an untruth when attention is likely to waver, like at the end of a long text, when information overload is likely to result in the reader lowering his defenses. Repeated over time every which way you turn, every magazine, media channel, radio ... the fool starts believing it - "If everyone is saying it, it must be true!! I am a graduate, I have read a 100 books in my life, I know how to discern ..." but alas, the modern Indian who lives by the Western values is no better than the German of the 1940s. Of course the method is not perfect - You may pick up an article when credibility has not set in yet and immediately see the weakness or spot the mistakes. That is where the hope lies ...
If you go back to your statement, you may realize maybe in the next decade, that the foundations of the thinking are laid on a stack of cards, the palace game we play in childhood.
Unraveling it will take years and dedication.
Good luck in your quest - if you ever begin!
Edit: And Language chauvinism? Sorry I only speak English mostly 99%
PS: While you are reading up convinced about how benevolent the British empire was do also read up on the "victorian holoucast". Their moral stance to liberate the jews from Germany may come across as a joke ...
Forgot to post a good link :
http://www.indianscience.org/essays/2- NEEDHAMQuestion-DPSameer-edit.pdf and
The Rise Of The West
One more:
http://www.iisc.ernet.in/prasthu/pages/PP_data/105.pdf and yet one more (read the foreword on page 2 & 3):
Indian Science and Technology Before the 18th Century
From page 7 : "Contrary to what millions of us were taught in our school text-books, it indicated the existence of a functioning society, extremely competent in the arts and sciences of its day. Its interactive grasp over its immediate natural environment was undisputed; in fact, it demanded praise. This was reflected in both agricultural and industrial production. We know today that till around 1750, together with the Chinese, our areas were producing some 73% of the total world industrial production, and even till 1830, what both these economies produced still amounted to 60% of world industrial production."
it is cool symbol simple and sober i like things simple and sober