Finally found a little time yesterday and today to respond.
@Venkat, No your response with the evidences pasted does not prove anything. Earlier you mentioned that Indian languages were deficient for scientific advancement because they were only dialects. I pointed out that all Sanskritized languages are sufficiently advanced to be capable of this. The example of calculus and esoteric mathematics done by Madhavans Malayalee School of Mathematics
should convince anybody of the same. Hence the stated points that you now post have nothing to do with that original claim of yours but go on a tangential path on a different set of points. Also they are not reliable for reasons I will elucidate below. But first a small digression
At the outset, no one denies that India was a great civilization some 1500 years ago.
Unfortunately this is a talking point by itself. This is not about Glory Singing of our great culture. If my long winded argument did not make it clear, the linked documents should have. And do note - Although I found most of the authors quoted as toeing the propaganda line, and not representative of how enlightened thinkers understand the past, I still posted the link to the doc you quoted with all its disagreeable material for TWO reasons.
ONE - It poses a great question that arose as the outcome of the Needham project and I will quote below
With the appearance on the scene of intensive studies of mathematics, science, technology and medicine in the great non-European civilizations, debate is likely to sharpen, for the failure of China and India to give rise to distinctively modern science while being ahead of Europe for fourteen previous centuries is going to take some explaining.
The scope of the problem I wished to present was of the very nature of what is quoted above (with some small differences). The grand academic problem and question posed in the aftermath of the Needham project clearly indicates a time frame upto the recent few centuries. And all my attempts at pointing out that India was not backwards were always made with this specific knowledge. So I am not clear why the glorious past 1500 years ago should deserve a mention? To me this automatic association of Glory Singing as one of the motivations - every single time the revival of a traditional and more authentic Indian approach is spoken about, is but a sign of how deeply the colonialist propaganda is ingrained in the minds of English speakers. And it is a habit to politely acknowledge this glory like a dinner guest admiring the crockery of the host. Hey thanks for being such a polite dinner guest
On the false perception that we were an advanced society as far as scientific knowledge goes,
Why do you insist on this when I have posted evidences of detailed studies that shatters this myth?!!! I am certain you have an imaginary notion of what it means to be scientifically advanced that does not tally with what being technologically advanced (over and above Europe of the time) means. Remember modern science is only about TWO centuries old. Otherwise what more evidence does one need? Please understand that history can never be about Proof!! It will always be about perspectives and guesstimates. However there is very scientific financial and statistically estimated data to indicate that Indian and China were ahead of Europe for 14 centuries until the recent two centuries. I simply fail to understand any ones obstinacy to follow up, read and accept the evidence for what it is. What afflicts the English educated Indians mind so much that he chooses to be blind and turn the head away when hard data is shoved under the nose?!!! I will be very interested to hear why anybody insists that India is to be considered backwards after reading the reference I posted. I started this discussion to challenge the patently false notions that India was some really backward impoverished nation that needs foreign inspiration (read interference) motivations and guidance to bring it up. The impoverishment came with the British systematically undermining all our industries. I cant help but remind you all once again to read Dharampals book (
Indian Science and Technology Before the 18th Century)
And I find it deeply offensive ( not personally insulted NP
) that todays generation casually throws comments implying we need to forget our languages and culture in order to succeed in life as modern progressive ( and unwittingly become pliable and exploitable imbeciles in the hands of vested interests) . Information overload nowadays can lead a person to believe that he knows a lot and it is mistaken for real knowledge, while in reality the person has not made a sustained attempt at reading divergent viewpoints going back a few centuries in a somewhat scholarly approach.
The reason for this obstinacy is not hard to find. It is a deeply internalized propaganda message the root idea behind it being :
Indian civilization is nothing but a bunch of superstitions and evil caste power structures and idolaters. The whole of its belief system rests on myths, and is not at all and never was a progressive civilization. That Indians are lazy and indolent by nature given to lofty and grandiose proclamations about their past which is far from reality. In order to be modern and powerful like Europe, we need to give up our cultural moorings
I believe that a systematic perusal of non-Eurocentric literature will reveal the opposite! The reality is that our civilization has seen some great (but unacknowledged) hard working and prodigious building and seafaring activity, and historically possessing an abundance of technological innovation, knowledge and experience at the grassroots level including in agriculture. Oops! Does it sound like Glory shouting to you again?
Remember economic historians have a different tale to tell. And economic and financial data has a knack of expose myths and falsehoods in all spheres of knowledge in the world today.
Let me now list some of the arguments you pasted enough to make my case about propaganda, but not all for brevity and want of time:
.
During the period India remained an agricultural society, no new challenges came up to create new knowledge to help solve new problems.
Now which period are you talking about? Without knowing that nothing is clear. Is it during 17th century or 16th or a wider time frame? Was Indian society in control or were Imperialistic forces ruling? It will also be unwise to conclude anything without examining what these new problems were that remained unsolved. One of the motivators for development of mechanization in England was to compete with Asia for which the Europeans were desperate to muscle into the trade. Until then (if you read narratives of historical value) the Europeans were mostly playing second fiddle to Asians, taking orders from them in their transactions. Quiet like how Indians in the corporate industry play second fiddle to Americans and Europeans everywhere today
Were there any similar motivators in India? If there were local motivators but India failed, did local circumstances like persistent warfare interfere with these developments? I actually have some partly read references to examine this aspect about Europe, but do not have time to peruse them right now.
Since Indias was an agrarian society, the use of this knowledge for the common man was limited. Knowledge and scientific thinking was thus reduced to a few that was handed down over generations. There was very little documentation and knowledge was kept limited to a small percentage of the society.
Maybe one good counter-example would be to take an opinion from other people like Vandana Shiva on this matter (
Navdanya) than propagate such malicious proclamations. India farmers were systematically impoverished first by Mogul tax collection regime, (also many a times violently, to feed their vast armies that were camping nearby during a battle) at the expense of starving villagers to death, then by the Brits. Many of the famines and poverty situations India is famous for historically were induced by ruthless and exploitative governance
not backwardness as is claimed!!. As Amartya Sen put it a few years back famines are created.
I am quoting again a reference which you neglected to read
Contrary to what millions of us were taught in our school text-books, it indicated the existence of a functioning society, extremely competent in the arts and sciences of its day. Its interactive grasp over its immediate natural environment was undisputed; in fact, it demanded praise. This was reflected in both agricultural and industrial production. We know today that till around 1750, together with the Chinese, our areas were producing some 73% of the total world industrial production, and even till 1830, what both these economies produced still amounted to 60% of world industrial production. Even in a moderately fertile area like that of Chengalpattu (Tamilnadu), our paddy production in a substantial area of its lands around 1760-70 amounted to some 5-6 tons per hectare, which equals the production of paddy per hectare in present day Japanthe current world high. A vast educational set-upbased on a school in every villagelooked after the requirements of learning of large masses of young people.
The most impressive feature of the set-up was the elaborate fiscal arrangements made for its upkeep in perpetuity, if required. From the gross produce, amounts were allocated by tradition for the upkeep of the system, from the engineers who looked after the irrigation tanks and channels to the police and school teachers. In technology, we produced steel that was superior to Sheffield steel. We also produced dyes, ships and literally hundreds of commodities.
And then
...the British successfully initiated an intricate system of widespread control and extortion, taking away as tax most of what the land produced, as well as the products of manufactures. He found it horrifying that this was often done at the point of the bayonet.
Dharampal found that for long periods in the late 18th and the 19th centuries, the tax on land in many areas exceeded the total agricultural production of very fertile land. This was particularly so in the areas of the Madras Presidency (comprising current Tamilnadu, districts of coastal Andhra, some districts of Karnataka and Malabar). The consequences of the policy were easy to predict: in the Madras Presidency, one third of the most fertile land went out of cultivation between the period 1800-1850.
Please read more about the Victorian Holoucast to understand how terrible this was. (
George Monbiot: The Turks haven't learned the British way of denying past atrocities | Books | The Guardian)
In his book Late Victorian Holocausts, published in 2001, Mike Davis tells the story of famines that killed between 12 and 29 million Indians. These people were, he demonstrates, murdered by British state policy.
The murder was through forced seizure of precious grain fodder that would have kept the people of this country alive. So who impoverished Indian Agriculture? Instead you read again and again in every book and article ( and hence insist that India was scientifically backward) that Indian farming was unproductive and lacked scientific approach in agriculture (when economic data actually shows that production exceeded modern Japan) and that is the ONLY reason for our poverty suppressing all the facts about how the Indian farmer came to this state of affairs over the entire sub-continent.
Also Unknown to you, before Venice became the banking hub of the world a few centuries back ( where all developments are attributed to this glorious European civilization), the Europeans banking professionals who studied our methods had nothing but admiration in the way Gujjus ran their banking and financial deals they were considered to be highly evolved and sophisticated, like nothing the Europeans had. Who learnt from whom?!!
Unfortunately, One of the traits of the Brown Sepoy is to insist and believe that all sophistication and intellectual progress came primarily from the Europeans ignorant as he is about the real history and genius of his own enlightened civilization . The propaganda game is also played as follows -
Entity A does some gross ethical and moral misdeeds for which entity B accuses him of. No how on earth can A counter the difficult argument posed to him and continue his expansionist activities? Simple Fabricate evidences that everything about entity B was immoral in the first place, then drown all reason in a slanging match that goes nowhere, giving A time to advance step-by-step on his real agenda as the verbal duel continues over time. This is exactly what you use in the media when Indian civilization is always described solely in terms of evil power structures that oppress the weak.
That violence of a large nature did not reach below the Vindhyas was only an act of geography
Maybe you should read more about Tipu's exploits from the right sources?
The claim will look preposterous to anyone once the real events on the ground are detailed. Would you like to consider as an example, the fall of Vijayanagara Kingdom? In the frenzy of victory , one may consider it normal to plunder and pillage for week or two after the battle is over. But the Vijayanagara empire was systematically demolished stone by stone over a time frame from 6 months to a year after its defeat!! One would think the soldiers would be tired after many a battle and choose to rest after some booty is their hands?
As travel started, this knowledge reached other shores, and this jealousy turned to violence against us
Only jealousy? The example of Vijayanagara indicates it clearly - by no stretch of imagination can one call such a one year campaign a wanton act of irrationality and jealousy of a single ruler. It was an attempt to bring to dust every vestige of the original culture. Imperialism, period.
All the cataloged propaganda literature you will discover will portray that these wanton acts were personal aberrations of a few rules in selective periods of time, never widespread and sustained. However once you stop reading the one-sided sources of history that is commonly peddled from the propaganda warehouses that are modern book stores, one will come to understand that this is and always has always been a sustained campaign of Imperialism that emanated from the ideologies that owe its origins to a narrow geographical region in the west. Even a perusal of the history of genocide in the Americas will lead to the exact same conclusions - It is not exclusive to medieval India both Asia or America have been brutalized under the same campaign. The role of repeated genocide campaigns as a prominent tool employed in this form of imperialism is surreptitiously buried in the context of Indian historical studies. It is a part of the cunning game plan - to suppress this knowledge and then proscribe many fabricated reasons to propose a myth that Indian civilization was backwards entirely due to its own internal faults. Not to say it was the only reason, but its complete denial is the real issue I am raising here. Please do read the entire article by Monbiot above to understand the hidden extent of brutality at the least.
Having become an advanced society we lost the power and will to defend ourselves
A false claim and a really malicious one in effect - It is born out of reading only selective texts that push the colonial viewpoint. One only has to read day-to-day accounts of medieval battles in Ancient India to realize that victory was not easy for the aggressors. Many a times it was luck, circumstances and treachery that did the Indians in. At some times it was also faulty military technique and leadership (which is the only point always highlighted) All societies at differing times in various parts of the world, have experienced a delay in catching up with new innovations and techniques and consequences are learned the hard way. This is also true for all modern armies of the word, including Indias. However brandishing a few examples and trumpeting them ad-nauseam as PROOF is a common propaganda tactic. Also on many occasions it was lack of a comparable fanatical ruthlessness in eliminating the vanquished enemy (letting them off when they were retreating) that resulted in the ultimate downfall later also a combination of Indian ethics of war, principles and misjudgment. Not realizing that the goals of the opponents were Imperialistic and the aggression would continue for centuries - this is also one of the faults of Indians, responsible for their ultimate downfall.
A more scholarly approach will show that victory was never assured and guaranteed for any side there were victories for the defenders on a given day, and losses on another, a see-saw before the final outcome and the victory was always bitterly won not easily from Indians unwilling to fight. What you say is tantamount to saying that Indians were intellectually and practically lethargic and stagnant from centuries a patently malicious colonial perspective.
Many a times Moguls fought Moguls and one side lost. Does it equate to saying that the Moguls lost the power to defend themselves or the will to fight every battle? The language used in that statement is a great example of why I opposed English as a medium in the first place. Generations of Indians that learn it as a foreign language are bound to commit similar mistakes of expression that have totally wrongful connotations and propagate resulting false ideas though incorrect usage of the language - what amounts to a propagating propaganda messages to the rest of their kinsfolk. We are weak, we are losers, the west is superior. Abandon your beliefs and follow their values . Forget our own
hyeah:
In case anybody is interested in updating himself, a good start is here:
Bharat Rakshak • View topic - Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat
Also see Military History of Ancient India by Maj. Gen. Gurcharan Singh Sandhu. (
Military History Of Medieval India :Books by Maj. Gen. Gurcharan Singh Sandhu:9788170945253 in India:)
Scientific activity and knowledge, by and large, remained a preserve of the elite, while arts and crafts remained with the less privileged groups.
Was it any different in Europe? In fact one of the reasons attributed to growth of modern science in Europe (if you read all the references I gave ) is the very facility of indulging in elitist pursuits without the worry of money,
exactly what is quoted as a deficiency in the Indian context! Barring exceptional individuals, the public world over has had little time for fine arts and esoteric scientific thought, when living a hand-to-mouth existence or struggling long hours to make a living, or when earning what is an unpredictable income day to day. The reference I linked earlier by Dharampals study of Indian Science before the 18th century is ample evidence of the opposite. Why dont you read it?
The above argument does convey the subtle propaganda message that the evil elite of India denied the common man their due
One example is Wotz Steel
Wootz steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Tell me - can such a development come from a namby pamby intellectual buried deep in a forest ashram or did it come from gritty (lower class) workmen and their supervisors who work and live a hard life around the furnace?
The pluralistic tradition of Hinduism, whereby different philosophies continued to coexist, as the faith failed to generate a unified pursuit of knowledge.
Mumbo jumbo. First let us deal with unified pursuit of knowledge. As you said, it was common in India for Kings to sponsor learning in arts and science. Did the grand works of architecture and sculpture come because an individual lost himself buried in some remote ashram in a forest? Did a single individual dream up the practical technology of doing engineering feats like hoisting an 80 ton rock as the Gopuram of Tanjore temple (not to name other architectural wonders in tens of thousands all across India and into South-East Asia)? Or did it come from a systematic and institutionalized effort and experience of many 100s of specialist professional workmen over generations, in improving building and engineering technology? Likewise with Agriculture and Animal Husbandry, Ayurveda, Surgery and Medicine, Warfare and Weaponry.
Remember everything you read that was written down in ancient India was the culmination of many generations of experience over centuries not the start and beginning of it, or invented by just one mind (
Even Sankara only re-interpreted the original Veda's). We have the instance if I recall correctly where Bhaskara did not agree with Aryabhatta's work at all but so did many European scientists ridicule their fellow geniuses - even as they came from the same institution and establishment!!
Pick a dozen European scientists from the 18th or 19th century. Did they all come from a common Institution and sponsor? Or were they individual contributors whose genius resulted in leaps and spurts of scientific progress when their works were understood and deployed by others? And then if the mingling of faith and philosophy interfered with technological advancement, why was India lock-step with china (not strictly quite behind, but ahead compared to Europe) in technological progress for 14 centuries? If we accept all these reasons then India should not have been ahead of Europe for too long.
Now coming to pluralism, here is a propaganda attempt to portray one of Indias major strengths as its weakness!!! The fact that we have so many communities, and sub-communities within communities is a supreme and ultimate example of Indias enlightened fountainhead not restricting human creativity in any manner, of diversity in language, dialect, philosophies, of a shining example of a civilization that works with human nature to develop societies, not restrict it!! And everyone
MUST be reminded that it is for this supreme quality that Indian civilization spread all over south-east Asia and beyond Afghanistan without any accompanying aggression!! How shamefully homogeneous the western world is in comparison!! And India is the only nation in entire history of the world to withstand religious aggression from more than 500 years and not succumb to it wholly!! Look at the whole of Arabia and the Americas to compare with.
It is very much Indias pluralistic diversity that vexed the aggressors!!
hyeah:
Instead here is an example of the
Sugar-Coated Pill ( in the form a scholarly pronouncement lapped up by eager to be informed masses) that Indias pluralism is a hindrance to its development. While these diverse sub-communities have thrived over 100 centuries with all their inter-community pressures, it is today described as chaos, and the need to homogenize it is expressed. Get the trick?
Convince the population that their strength is actually their weakness!! This factor is again well documented and researched if you care to explore and remove the horse-blinds imposed by the dominant media.
A more enlightened perspective will understand that India, despite all its maddening diversity displayed a remarkable cohesion in its beliefs and value systems.
Something the western mind attuned to enforcing overwhelming homogeneity through brutal methods cannot grasp!!! And this very weakness of the western mind is passed on to the modern Indian today -
as a solution to the problems engulfing his nation!! A contaminant, a virus infecting our civilization and way thought. A very subtle but fine example of the west exporting its trash to India in the name of progress.
hyeah: Whereas the real reason lies elsewhere, in the brutalization and systematic exploitation and decimation of his civilization followed by cultural imposition of foreign values preventing the revival of traditional knowledge and way of life!!
Incidentally, this was reason number TWO for posting a reference I did not trust and agree with
A real world demonstration of how the sugar-pill works in propagandist literature. The intent of the referenced study appears to be purely scholarly and of unrelated nature one dealing in science and technology. But by surreptitious repetitions of some common falsehoods in all fields of literature, the propaganda message gets internalized into the sub-conscious mind of the reader. That innocuous message is then used a platform to build another more elaborate and false theory by this time the reader stops grudging the flawed assumptions upon which it is based as he moves into the next level of indoctrination.
In contrast to Indian writings, the characteristic features of Arab literature were:
The use of unambiguous and refined language.
Providing definition of terms used and giving illustrations.
It may be there are some Arabic texts that are wonderfully illustrated and these have been compared to remaining Sanskritic text which was saved from the extensive burning and pillage our libraries have seen. But do you think a learned man in ancient India would have shared with the aggressors, his most precious and authentic text easily (meticulously handwritten on perishable material without a publishing industry) unless captured or looking for favors? Why blindly assume things when it cannot be proven without time travel?
I would also add that this is typical judgment when a foreigner learns some smattering of a sophisticated language like Sanskrit and gets wholly confused about word usage in the process. The whole of Indian anthropology and archeology is littered with deliberate mis-translations using secondary and tertiary meanings which are not appropriate to the context. The link to the NASA Sanskrit report explained in simple English why it was to be considered a perfect language. How can a language so developed as Sanskrit not provide the facility of unambiguous classifications?
The whole of Ayurveda is a monumental act of classification of various plants and herbs and how they influence Human well being.
Carnatic music theory involves a herculean act of classification.
Indian architecture that stands a 1000 years (would it if a plumber made a silly mistake due to ambiguity?)
hyeah:
Sculpture very systemized art passed down generations. Any ambiguity there about angles and proportion?
One will discover if he peruses, that in all its endeavors India has brought a graceful (eastern) sense of order to things. Besides India has a long proven tradition of verbal learning without relying on written word, by employing astounding memory tricks and feats. The Brahmins are living proof of that. To believe the above as a final verdict for everything about Indian knowledge would be foolish.
That aside, American Indian children as young as 8-12 years old were noted to be able to differentiate 300 different types of plants by anthropologists in the early part of the century!! Did they have a sophisticated language like Sanskrit? Did they draw diagrams of leaves and seeds? How did the tribe that wore bare loin cloths communicate such detailed differentiating knowledge?
To me the above quote looks suspiciously like a brag like popular Arab historians like Fereshtas accounts of the exploits of Mogul rulers in India or AlBerunis many other (he had nothing but praise for Mahmoud Ghaznis feats of genocide and thought very condescendingly about Indians). Maybe if these Arab scholars learnt from the real experts that were considered as authoritative at the time ( like studied in Aryabhattas school, way off time, but an example nonetheless) and if it can be known if they had access to the original source materials can we take them more seriously.
A postgraduate today in physics too has many areas of half-baked knowledge where it requires a Ph.D to oversee his work. Why trust say an AlBerunis (partly gloating) accounts of India as totally reliable, neutral uncolored by his personal prejudices and mis-understandings? How many years did it take for you to clear some technical mis-understanding in your domain?
Lack of institutionalization of education was also a handicap
Sorry propaganda bull again!! ? See
Education in Pre-British India
in many respects Indian schooling seems to have been much more extensive. The content of studies was better in India than in England. The method of school teaching was superior in India at that time. The school attendance, especially in the district of Madras Presidency, even in the decayed state of the period 1822-25, was proportionately far higher than the numbers in all variety of schools in England in 1800. The only aspect in which India was behind was the education of girls. Girl schooling may have been proportionately more extensive in England in 1800.
Also remember that Nalanda, Takshashila, Ujjain, Vikramashila that were systematically destroyed .. The tradition of institutionalized education has existed in India since many centuries. Dharampal also mentioned a school in EVERY village with a superior quality of education provided by Gurukulas and Madrasas than provided in England!!
Can you see what kind of horse manure this viewpoint is?
And btw did anyone know there were more nursing institutions in Madras than many cities of Europe of the time before the Brits came to India? Bet you did not (in all your research on your beloved city) because that little tidbit needs to suppressed - in order not present any contradictions to the idea that Indians were basically backwards in all aspects until Europe brought a civilizing mission to India. Why doesnt your progressive English medium school teach you these little things that might instill pride in the past and inspire the Indian?
Over years the Persians and British forced themselves on us and we forgot what we knew.
In my mind Nehru's thinking is very important and to a large extent responsible for our downfall.
At last I agree with you!! :clapping: Our government and the dominant elements in the media owe their allegiance to western interests, and do not believe in the welfare of its own culture, resulting from its ideological roots in Nehruvian ideals. And Nehruvian's try to pretend that what the Brits destroyed never existed hence there is no attempt to revive the indigenous education or knowledge systems.
Other-Worldliness of the Indian Society.
A society industrially and agriculturally more productive that many modern western societies of recent times? Again, look at economic data on Industrial, and agricultural production going back a few centuries before propounding such views, and you will realize I do not need to say a word more about this.
It is common to take Adi-Sankara as an example of other-worldliness of Indians, ascribe certain views like dismissing the world being an illusion etc etc, explain how this is all silly nonsense and a great example of how our civilization is flawed intellectually resulting in all the aberrations. Influenced by this propaganda, the modern broadminded progressive English speaking Indian (or should I use the word Idiot?) neglect reading the works of the Sankaracharya (one of the greatest minds the world has seen) or an Aurobindo, but swallows the vomit and works of many an inferior mind sourced from the western traditions when it comes to understanding atheism or monotheism and such other-worldly questions. The view then is reinforced that Indian philosophies are a time-wasting pastime to be indulged in old age if one is interested. The reality if you believe some scholars, is that western philosophy is sterile and useless and does not help in dealing with life as a process
unlike Indian Philosophy!! . But one has to read and find out for oneself over the years so dont take my word for it . Even the foundations of Indian/Buddhist psychology is considered superior to the western one by those that have accomplished a comparative study.
But does anyone know that the works ascribed to Sankara are spurious, actually done in later centuries by lesser minds notwithstanding their literary excellence? Or that it is for this reason that the views expressed and frequently inconsistent and contradictory? The ideas contained in them (Sankara's work) are of a much later date, different authors, different periods, and a false tradition of ascribing disparate and spurious works to Sankaras authorship is being propagated. How many know that Sankara was opposed to Tantrik approach and that he was not a Shaivite but more likely a Vaishnavite, including his immediate two disciples, and that he opposed ritualistic things like the worship of Ganapati? Or the perspective that Buddhism had already declined before Sankaras time and he is not the Savior of Hinduism as made out to be. Or that he was unknown for many centuries until his work was revived by others by putting their words in his mouth?
You will never discover these ideas if you peruse the vastly cataloged western academic scholarship because it suddenly makes the research in Indian philosophical thought more invigorating and interesting. And then how can colonial powers induce you to abandon your values and beliefs if it was found that Sankara was actually a more profoundly rational person than they want you to think?
Religious prejudices and linguistic arrogance may have also come in the way of evolution of a single tradition that we had linguistic arrogance from early stages in our evolution as a society
Again a slur cast on Indians in clever scholarly fashion and internalized by many modern Indians!! Linguistic arrogance is too convenient a term to brand Indians with. The whole point that is missed is that Indias plurality is like a shining gem for the whole world to emulate. Other cultures have homogenized through violence and genocide. Be like us or perish that is what happened to Native American Indians and what continues to happen to with Blacks and Mexicans. India gave birth to 100+ languages and dialects, allowed them their space, to retain their identity. Now try and take away this plurality by insisting on a modern Nehruvian version of National Homogeneity (like you said was a problem) and there is going to be resistance. Today's Kannada pride, Telugu Pride, Maratha pride, it is all a recent phenomenon due to an artificially enforced construct of a geographically based Nation that tramples on the sense of self-esteem or aspirations of its diverse linguistic communities. And where one has to abandon ones mother tongue and learn a foreign tongue compulsorily in order to succeed economically and socially there is going to be an expression of a problem like the thuggery you see on TV. It is a modern phenomenon however because traditional Indian society allowed the space. I do not believe it went back a few 100 years. One must also differentiate between healthy pride and the foolhardy.
From very early times to say Aryabhatta and Brahmagupta and up to recently with the Kerala school of mathematics we used but one medium to develop the science. Who says there is no single tradition? Almost all Indian languages owe something to mother language Sanskrit. If all elite people spoke Sanskrit and developed their science in Sanskrit where was the conflict between languages?
Why did this linguistic barrier not come in between the Europeans and Chinese when they were copying their technology and vice versa for many centuries?
And BTW do you know that that Taj Mahal uses a unit of measurement that comes from pre-Harrapan times and documented in Kautalyas Arthashastra?!!! (
Taj Mahal builders used Harappan measurement units - SiliconIndia) How did this knowledge from before 2000BC get transferred down in the absence of a common culture or language?
Or how did certain technologies techniques or knowledge spread to the whole of ancient India to evolve common practices? Why would there be any common practices across the length and breadth of India at all if linguistic arrogance was such a difficult barrier to overcome?
This cannot be the reason for why India lagged behind in the past
because India was not lagging in the past as Needham pointed out it was ahead of Europe with China remember? So what changed around 17th to 18th century? More likely , was it the destruction of Indian educational institutions by the British and Moguls as detailed above? It coincides very well with the rise of Europe over Asia. Did they practice something similar in China?
It could possibly be the make or break factor today if we want to bring about all round excellence and succeed at the game again. At least I strongly believe, this lack of indigenous education
IS the factor keeping us underdeveloped today after the Brits had systematically destroyed traditional education in India!!
Did the developers (lowly factory furnace workers) of Wotz steel know Sanskrit? Maybe, then maybe not. But then the reason why it should not be a hurdle is apparent from an example in todays world here and now. Do all the labourers who are engaged in house construction according to the layout and specific plan know English? (Did every mason who built a temple know Sanskrit although the plans were in Sanskrit? ) Only the Architect needs to know, the contractor/supervisor can be the bridge of communication. So the answer is clear and simple it is only necessary for a small elite to know the language or medium in order to keep up with exchanging current technological data with the rest of the world Be it English or Sanskrit!! The rest can continue to excel in their mother tongue by just following certain guidelines and rules set by the technical elite.
In summary - the approach or motive in this argument cannot be and is not to dig out that single ultimate proof that will excuse our civilization (or the Chinese) from a specific failure. Neither can a blame game be given a chance to dominate the thinking on this topic. Evidences have to looked at like a constellation of planets around the sun - at some epoch in time and place in orbit, the effects of gravitational influence of Jupiter will have a pronounced influence, at other times it will be the turn of Mars to influence its neighbor more. However what you see in the literature some of which you copied and proclaimed as proof are nothing more than sweeping judgments and repeated
verdict passing with a propaganda motive. The truth about which is extremely hard to tell really, if not impossible - without time travel.
The above examples show that if we just pause for a moment and think for ourselves and READ more, the scam of these many so called scholars lies exposed. Their allegiance lies towards the destructive forces that want the Original Indian civilization to disintegrate from within. What you may have seen above is that there is layer upon layer of propaganda like an onion peel like I illustrated above. Books lie these days - Never trust a book . And there is an army of dishonest intellectuals working towards creating an image they want you to see, and suppress those facts or perspectives that might call their bluff!! Almost every argument put forth in the book I referenced earlier looked more like the kind of thoughtless ready-made nonsense we are taught in textbooks and expected to spit out in exam answer sheets as good obedient thought controlled students. It is the MATRIX!!
hyeah:
To put my perspective in brief We need intensive revival of traditional forms of education in ones local mother tongue. This will empower the millions in India to be creative innovative and display the same industry and entrepreneurship as our forefathers. However unfortunately, today any attempt today is bound to be corrupted by those who want to introduce a political agenda driven curriculum into these schools. The attempt to takeover Ramakrishna mission schools in Bengal by the Marxists was but one example. The syllabus in Kerala is already a mess!! Therefore, I remain vehemently opposed to this anglicized education ( conducted in local language as well) more so
because this is the primary tool of thought control in our population today -
Start by teaching our daughters to be ashamed of wearing a Bindi on the forehead, punish them and make them feel guilty for showing any vestiges of our culture like speaking a local language as well (happens elsewhere as well
BBC News - Taiwan seeks to save indigenous languages), then push a distorted version of our history down their throats and make them swallow lies wholesale.
I hinted earlier that most English speaking professionals today are duds. It is also widely circulated in the industry that India produces very poor quality graduates. I put the blame squarely on this version of education and my entire post and debate from the start is to counter the mistaken belief that this Anglicization must be accelerated rapidly to cover the entire vast population of India, to improve their lot.
Cheers!
