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Atmos / Dts X - 6 Overhead speakers - Using multiple AVR - Feasibility !!!

Wharfedale Diamond 11.1 & 11.2 Speakers

elangoas

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Hi All,

At present i have 5.2.2 Atmos set-up, powered by Denon x 3300.. Recently helped my brother pick a used Cambridge Azur 540 v.2 6.1 AVR (non HDMI) for 10K.. Had a thought if i can use Cambridge Azur 540 AVR to power 6 overheads in my 14 x 11 ft room..

I have seen many threads on AVS forums, where members have done 6 or more overheads using multiple AVR's, who also have very strong technical knowledge of how things work (overheads & Dolby Prologic modes)..

I would like to evaluate options and give a try..

Below image : Denon x 3300 with 7.2 pre-outs

Denon-AVR-X3300-Back.jpg


Below image : Cambridge Azor 540 (non HDMI AVR) images of back panel

540r-rear.jpg


- After reading some threads on AVS forums, have thought of using pre-outs (height) of Denon AVR to one of the Analogue inputs on Cambridge AVR and use Dolby Prologic mode on Cambridge AVR to expand 2 channels to 6 channels (overheads)..
- Not sure what would happen if i plug the pre-outs from Denon to a pair of inputs on 6.1 Direct in and use it in same Dolby Prologic mode..
- If the 6 overheads are worth trying out for, i would pick the Cambridge from my brother..
- Also not sure of how to place 6 overheads in my room..

Looking for your inputs..
 

ajuvignesh

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First of all, I’m not sure if pro logic way would work as it just splits two channel in to 5.1 or 7.1. Algorithm works differently for both stereo and dolby encoded stereo, from what I heard. With atmos, you need 4/6 discrete channels.

Secondly, overheads are objects rather than channels. If the avr can map the objects in the metadata to 6 height channels, then, there is a possibility atleast for 5.2.4(if the avr can map the objects to 4 channels), provided you can map the preout of the AVR.

I guess an atmos processor would do the trick.
 

elangoas

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First of all, I’m not sure if pro logic way would work as it just splits two channel in to 5.1 or 7.1. Algorithm works differently for both stereo and dolby encoded stereo, from what I heard. With atmos, you need 4/6 discrete channels.

Secondly, overheads are objects rather than channels. If the avr can map the objects in the metadata to 6 height channels, then, there is a possibility atleast for 5.2.4(if the avr can map the objects to 4 channels), provided you can map the preout of the AVR.

Most of my movies are in DTS / HD-MA.. So the Denon AVR x 3300 upmixes the soundtrack using Dts Neural X for 1 pair of heights.. So. i guess it would be DTS + Neural X + Dolby Prologic processing for height channels..

For DTS X files, it would be Dts X + Dolby Prologic processing.. (not sure if that would work)..

For Dolby files it is Dolby / THD + Dolby surround.. In that case it would be Dolby Digital + Dolby surround + Dolby prologic for height channels..

For native Dolby Atmos soundtracks, it would be Dolby Atmos + Dolby Prologic..

I guess an atmos processor would do the trick.

:p Just don't have the money..Thought this would be an inexpensive way to increase more overheads..

Atmos / Dts X support for 6 channels is 2 columns x 3 rows of speakers for a longish room.. I would like to try (if possible) 3 columns x 2 rows of speakers..

Actually was thinking if this idea would work.. to place each height at 60 degrees.. 60 x 6 = 360 degrees, in a circular fashion..
 

ajuvignesh

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Most of my movies are in DTS / HD-MA.. So the Denon AVR x 3300 upmixes the soundtrack using Dts Neural X for 1 pair of heights.. So. i guess it would be DTS + Neural X + Dolby Prologic processing for height channels..

For DTS X files, it would be Dts X + Dolby Prologic processing.. (not sure if that would work)..

For Dolby files it is Dolby / THD + Dolby surround.. In that case it would be Dolby Digital + Dolby surround + Dolby prologic for height channels..

For native Dolby Atmos soundtracks, it would be Dolby Atmos + Dolby Prologic..



:p Just don't have the money..Thought this would be an inexpensive way to increase more overheads..

Atmos / Dts X support for 6 channels is 2 columns x 3 rows of speakers for a longish room.. I would like to try (if possible) 3 columns x 2 rows of speakers..

Actually was thinking if this idea would work.. to place each height at 60 degrees.. 60 x 6 = 360 degrees, in a circular fashion..
If it works, then wow. 360-degree audio is a dream of many including me :) Somehow, I still think 4 height channels cannot be upmixed to 6 discrete channels. Yeah, going by pro logic route, 4 can be upmixed to 6 but that beats the purpose. The implementation of Prologic and atmos is different. I have no idea about dts. Will PM you once I find the article.
Just wondering why the processor is costly.
 

spirovious

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Instead of prologic,you can use multichannel stereo so that there will be multiplication and not unwanted processing of channels.
 

drkrack

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Hi All,

At present i have 5.2.2 Atmos set-up, powered by Denon x 3300.. Recently helped my brother pick a used Cambridge Azur 540 v.2 6.1 AVR (non HDMI) for 10K.. Had a thought if i can use Cambridge Azur 540 AVR to power 6 overheads in my 14 x 11 ft room..

I have seen many threads on AVS forums, where members have done 6 or more overheads using multiple AVR's, who also have very strong technical knowledge of how things work (overheads & Dolby Prologic modes)..

I would like to evaluate options and give a try..

Below image : Denon x 3300 with 7.2 pre-outs

Denon-AVR-X3300-Back.jpg


Below image : Cambridge Azor 540 (non HDMI AVR) images of back panel

540r-rear.jpg


- After reading some threads on AVS forums, have thought of using pre-outs (height) of Denon AVR to one of the Analogue inputs on Cambridge AVR and use Dolby Prologic mode on Cambridge AVR to expand 2 channels to 6 channels (overheads)..
- Not sure what would happen if i plug the pre-outs from Denon to a pair of inputs on 6.1 Direct in and use it in same Dolby Prologic mode..
- If the 6 overheads are worth trying out for, i would pick the Cambridge from my brother..
- Also not sure of how to place 6 overheads in my room..

Looking for your inputs..

That's an interesting proposition, and shouldn't be difficult to implement in my opinion. The problem would lie with proper optimization.
Audessey or other AVR based room EQ softwares give a lot of importance to front and center speakers, its kind of skewed towards the screen and rightfully so.
I'd prefer to get two equally capable AVRs with same EQ software ( Audessey same version for eg ) desirable, calibrate both AVR separately with same center channel, Second or less capable AVR configured for six height channels and same center channel, other more powerful AVR( which will be primary AVR with decoding capability) for regular 5.2.2 with two height channels with same center channel . Take out the Room 2 preouts from primary AVR and feed the Second AVR. This way you may get the desirable SQ effects.

Otherwise look for Pro solutions for multichannel processors and add the required pro power amplifiers.
 

MaSh

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Ideally you would want only one amp doing the processing and controlling the signals. The secondary/slave amp can run as a power amp of sorts. If not, then running the second amp in direct or multi channel stereo mode would be a workable idea.

Having both receivers to do the processing would be tough. You won't be able to ascertain which frequency gets boosted and which suppressed.

If I wanted to do this, I would have one Processor with preamp feeding into multiple poweramps.

MaSh
 

vinothkumar

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Denon's output is variable and the cambridge's in are fixed.. How would it match? Just curious to ask....
 

matbhuvi

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have thought of using pre-outs (height) of Denon AVR to one of the Analogue inputs on Cambridge AVR and use Dolby Prologic mode on Cambridge AVR to expand 2 channels to 6 channels

Should work fine. But, it would be interesting to see how audyssey think of it. Atmos data will not be lost for sure. It will be presented in the back/surround channels. But, the important thing is how the volume would adjusted by receiver to simulate accurate panning. It has to increase/decrease correctly to get accurate positioning. Can't tell how good it will be unless you try it yourself.
 

sud98

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Most of my movies are in DTS / HD-MA.. So the Denon AVR x 3300 upmixes the soundtrack using Dts Neural X for 1 pair of heights.. So. i guess it would be DTS + Neural X + Dolby Prologic processing for height channels..

For DTS X files, it would be Dts X + Dolby Prologic processing.. (not sure if that would work)..

For Dolby files it is Dolby / THD + Dolby surround.. In that case it would be Dolby Digital + Dolby surround + Dolby prologic for height channels..

For native Dolby Atmos soundtracks, it would be Dolby Atmos + Dolby Prologic..



:p Just don't have the money..Thought this would be an inexpensive way to increase more overheads..

Atmos / Dts X support for 6 channels is 2 columns x 3 rows of speakers for a longish room.. I would like to try (if possible) 3 columns x 2 rows of speakers..

Actually was thinking if this idea would work.. to place each height at 60 degrees.. 60 x 6 = 360 degrees, in a circular fashion..

I think it should work. There is a thread in AVSforum of a person using dolby pro logic to increase the number of channels (I think he has 11). Let me search for that.
 

ItsMe

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Sounds an interesting idea, but atmos logic aims at pinpointing sound positions based on input. Not sure how you will tell your AVR that you have 6 overhead speakers and it should process sound signals on this. Also how will you pass multiple atmos input to your secondary amp?
One possibility is to use your secondary amp as a multiplier, feed it the atmos channel from main AVR and ask it to multiply. Though it will not get you desired outcome, it will be great to mimic your 5.2.2 to sound like 5.2.6.
Anyway its a food for thought :)
 

elangoas

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If it works, then wow. 360-degree audio is a dream of many including me :) Somehow, I still think 4 height channels cannot be upmixed to 6 discrete channels. Yeah, going by pro logic route, 4 can be upmixed to 6 but that beats the purpose. The implementation of Prologic and atmos is different. I have no idea about dts.

Ok.. My AVR has only 2 pre-outs for height channels, at present using it as Top middle.. Me too not sure if it would work.. Prologic was used to expand 2.0 to 5.0.. So in that aspect, it might work..

Will PM you once I find the article. Just wondering why the processor is costly.

Ok Great.. I meant the AVR that support higher overheads are expensive..

Instead of prologic,you can use multichannel stereo so that there will be multiplication and not unwanted processing of channels.

Multichannel stereo i guess is duplicating across all channels.. So what i would get from one height speaker will also be reproduced from other speakers..

That's an interesting proposition, and shouldn't be difficult to implement in my opinion. The problem would lie with proper optimization.

Yes..Right..

I'd prefer to get two equally capable AVRs with same EQ software ( Audessey same version for eg ) desirable, calibrate both AVR separately with same center channel, Second or less capable AVR configured for six height channels and same center channel, other more powerful AVR( which will be primary AVR with decoding capability) for regular 5.2.2 with two height channels with same center channel . Take out the Room 2 preouts from primary AVR and feed the Second AVR. This way you may get the desirable SQ effects.

Getting an other capable AVR is expensive.. I will check on Room 2 pre-outs capability on my AVR..

Ideally you would want only one amp doing the processing and controlling the signals. The secondary/slave amp can run as a power amp of sorts.

Denon's output is variable and the cambridge's in are fixed.. How would it match? Just curious to ask....

Yes.. Planning to have Denon X 3300 as primary amp and Cambridge as slave and want the volume to be controlled on Denon itself for simplicity..

I may have to use the secondary AVR on fixed volume level..

But, it would be interesting to see how audyssey think of it.

During Audyssey calibration, i was thinking i would need to connect only a pair of speakers on cambridge, preferably the center & single surr back as top middle.. Post Audyssey calibration, i guess i need to set the speaker level & delay for L/R on cambridge and config them Top front.. Same way use the SL/SR on cambridge as Top rear and set the speaker level & delay..

I think it should work. There is a thread in AVSforum of a person using dolby pro logic to increase the number of channels (I think he has 11). Let me search for that.

Please share the link.. Thanks.. VoW.. 11 overhead channels is awesome..

it will be great to mimic your 5.2.2 to sound like 5.2.6.

Yes.. If it is possible and rightly done, should be great..
 

sud98

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The specific post from Mashie Saldanha @avsforum

his is how the 9.1.6 setup will be done:

9.1.6.png


To make the above work there are a few things to configure.

Speaker setup

SR7010
  • Use amp assign and speaker setup to configure 9.1.2 where the heigh speakers will use the pre-outs.
  • Set the height speaker to the Top Middle position.
  • Set the crossover for the heigh speakers to the same as the SR6010.

SR6010
  • Use amp assign and speaker setup to configure 5.1.4 where either of the heights will use pre-outs.
  • Set the height speakers to Top Front and Top Rear.

Sources

  • SR7010 configure the sources as per normal and disable all that aren't used: HDMI1 Nvidia Shield and HDMI2 BD/UHD player. Set all sources to enable the +12V trigger.
  • SR6010 configure only one source, HDMI1 and disable all other sources. Set this source to enable the +12V trigger.

Zone 2 mirroring on SR7010

By default Zone 2 on the SR7010 will have a life of it's own and not tracking what the Main Zone is set to. To fix this we need to use the Marantz App.
  • Connect to the device
  • Click on Main Zone at the top.
  • On the Zone Select scren click on "View Zone 2"
  • In the drop down list for the various sources click the one that simply is named "SOURCE".
  • Exit out and you won't have to touch this ever again unless you fiddle with Zone 2 on the remote.

System Calibration

First is to configure the PLII AVR's:
  • Connect the speakers to each PLII AVR, connect L to TF speaker, C to TM speaker and R to TR speaker.
  • Set the surround mode to ProLogic II Movie.
  • Measure the distance from MLP to all three height speakers.
  • Set the distance to C to 0.
  • Set the distance to L to L minus C.
  • Set the distance to R to R minus C.
  • Connect both L and R in on the PLII AVR to height 1 on the SR6010 using Y-splitters.
  • Play a test tone on the SR6010 and measure the output using a SPL meter in MLP. Adjust the both AVR volumes until 80dB is seen on the SPL meter.
  • Remove the Y splitter.
  • Connect only L to height 1. Play the test tone again, adjust the L speaker level on the PLII AVR unlit the SPL meter is showing 80dB.
  • Connect only R to height 1. Play the test tone again, adjust the L speaker level on the PLII AVR unlit the SPL meter is showing 80dB.
  • Repeat the steps above with the second PLII AVR.

The speaker settings for the PLII AVR's are done.

Next is to configure the SR7010:
  • Connect the 9 base layer speakers and subwoofer to the SR7010.
  • Use the Y-splitters and connect both the PLII AVRs to the height 1 outputs. This should make it a basic 9.1.2 with TM speakers.
  • Run a few test tones and adjust the main volume on the PLII AVRs until they are similar to the rest of the speakers.
  • Run Audyssey calibration on the SR7010. Write down the speaker levels, distances and crossover frequencies detected for the TM, L/C/R and Surround speakers.
  • Connect the SR6010 to the SR7010 using HDMI.
  • Move the R speaker to the SR6010 and connect the PLII AVRs to height 1 and height 2 without Y splitters.
  • Set all the speaker settings on the SR6010 as per the notes from the SR7010.
  • Connect a PC running REW to the SR7010. Now we are going to measure any latency difference between the two units so we will compare L and R impulses using C as reference following this guide.
  • With the timing difference known between the two SR's we can adjust the delays accordingly on the SR6010.
  • Last step is to use the 9.1.6 test tones from the Dolby website and once again use a SPL meter in MLP to confirm all levels are the same, if not trim the speaker levels as required.

With everything configured connect the +12v trigger inputs on PLII AVR's to the SR's and set them to auto.

Single Remote (This is best to do as the very last step after all the speaker calibration has been completed.)

In addition to the settings above, to make source select and volumes fully synchronized we need to have a single IR receiver accept commands from the remote. To do this we need to connect Control Out from the SR7010 to Control In on the SR6010 and disable the IR receiver on the SR6010:

With the unit in standby, on the front panel press and hold M-DAX and DIMMER while clicking Power On.
Use TUNER PRESET CH + or TUNER PRESET CH - to select “RC LOCK On".
Press STATUS to enter the setting.

To undo this just repeat but select "RC LOCK Off".
 

elangoas

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The specific post from Mashie Saldanha @avsforum

his is how the 9.1.6 setup will be done:

Thx for the link.. I read his post, he has used 4 heights from his AVR to 2nd AVR and then used 2 additional PL II AVR to extract the 5th & 6th channel from 4 heights info..

My doubts are

- Whether, extracting 6 channels from 2 height channels is right approach?.. Still reading thru the AVS thread..
 

matbhuvi

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his is how the 9.1.6 setup will be done:

The zone 2 mirroring is a brilliant idea. Never thought of it. I just bought a denon 3500 to replace my Pioneer elite vsx-21TXH. Now, i am seriously thinking of combining them both.
 

ItsMe

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Cant we convert this to a simple idea? Use an HDMI splitter to feed both AVRs. Use 9.2.2 from AVR1 (which is set to top middle heights) and use the .4 from 5.1.4 setup in AVR2 (set as top front and rears) This should give you a 9.2.6 setup :)
However Denon and others have started releasing 9.2.4 AVRs in the market and soon 11.2.6 will become a norm :)
 
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