Audiophile psychology and HiFi fetishism

[Analogous]

I came upon this interesting musing on the Archimagos blogspot.
I thought some FM might be interested in reading this.
As Socrates said “The unexamined life is not worth living”
So here it is:

Audiophile Psychology: Reconsidering Zelinger's "Hi-Fi Fetishism" (HFN&RR, October 1981), and Lofft's "Sense and Nonsense" (SR, October 1982). On neuroses & fantasies.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[imagineer]

I came upon this interesting musing on the Archimagos blogspot.
I thought some FM might be interested in reading this.
As Socrates said “The unexamined life is not worth living”
So here it is:

Audiophile Psychology: Reconsidering Zelinger's "Hi-Fi Fetishism" (HFN&RR, October 1981), and Lofft's "Sense and Nonsense" (SR, October 1982). On neuroses & fantasies.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

I think, this is going to get a lot of flack now. .
Tweaksville - lotusland paragraph and this quote seemed pretty appropriate.

As Alan Parsons once observed: "Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment."

The other thing I liked was collector differentiation.

 

[Analogous]

this is going to get a lot of flack now

I wish!!!
Four people including you and I have read this….

 

[imagineer]

I wish!!!
Four people including you and I have read this….

Change the title to best hifi gear and content. It will be most read article in no time.

 

[Bloom@83]

‘Indeed, I've suggested over the years that there are 2 main types of hobbyists under the audiophile umbrella - "music lovers" and "hardware audiophiles", each of us owning a combination of these pursuits.

While the core desire may ostensibly point to the same kind of thing in principle (ie. the enjoyment of music/sonic playback), how we satisfy each of these pursuits will differ. Furthermore, within each type, there can be extremes. The "extreme music lover" might have literal hordes of CDs or LPs that some would consider "unhealthy" with its own obsessive-compulsive psychology (or psychopathology!). What Zelinger addresses here are the "extreme hardware audiophiles" and the love of these objects of desire.

He explains that for some individuals, instead of appreciating art (music), that source of joy has been redirected to the audio system (objects) - at its core, this is the "fetish". Indeed, when we do this, we idealize, perhaps even end up worshipping such objects. Tendencies toward "magical thinking", "fantasy" and "mystifying language" can be seen in the audiophile literature over the decades in the service of describing the adoration of audio hardware; rather than the joy in experiencing the music itself.’ - very true and pertinent. I personally have never cared much for the second category although majority on this forum belong to that.

 

[arj]

As Alan Parsons once observed: "Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment."

Fact is all of us in this forum are audiophiles of some form and painting everyone in the same brush is just not possible

What he is examining seems to be some extreme form but they do exist. if 1% or less of our population understand the term audiophile, maybe 1 % may fall into this !

 

[Analogous]

‘Indeed, I've suggested over the years that there are 2 main types of hobbyists under the audiophile umbrella - "music lovers" and "hardware audiophiles", each of us owning a combination of these pursuits.

While the core desire may ostensibly point to the same kind of thing in principle (ie. the enjoyment of music/sonic playback), how we satisfy each of these pursuits will differ. Furthermore, within each type, there can be extremes. The "extreme music lover" might have literal hordes of CDs or LPs that some would consider "unhealthy" with its own obsessive-compulsive psychology (or psychopathology!). What Zelinger addresses here are the "extreme hardware audiophiles" and the love of these objects of desire.

He explains that for some individuals, instead of appreciating art (music), that source of joy has been redirected to the audio system (objects) - at its core, this is the "fetish". Indeed, when we do this, we idealize, perhaps even end up worshipping such objects. Tendencies toward "magical thinking", "fantasy" and "mystifying language" can be seen in the audiophile literature over the decades in the service of describing the adoration of audio hardware; rather than the joy in experiencing the music itself.’ - very true and pertinent. I personally have never cared much for the second category although majority on this forum belong to that.

I feel most of us are a mix of the two
Also the proportion of one or the other may vary or swing over time.
Many shades of gray and millions of Colors are possible between the black and white extremes.
But as in everything else in our lives the extremes (being fixed and rigid) are easiest to define?

 

[arj]

I feel most of us are a mix of the two
Also the proportion of one or the other may vary or swing over time.
Many shades of gray and millions of Colors are possible between the black and white extremes.
But as in everything else in our lives the extremes (being fixed and rigid) are easiest to define?

Exactly..I remember a similar discussion earlier.

One extreme end of the spectrum is someone who just wants the soul of the music..dont care about resolution /system and get bliss even from an mp3 with the free earphone.
The other extreme end are those with uber systems/treated rooms and maybe a handful of cd/LPs they actually listen to and

Most of us who are somewhere in that spectrum

 

[imagineer]

Fact is all of us in this forum are audiophiles of some form and painting everyone in the same brush is just not possible

What he is examining seems to be some extreme form but they do exist. if 1% or less of our population understand the term audiophile, maybe 1 % may fall into this !

Agree. Reminds me of Elephant and blind men fable. One can't describe a person in single dimension. As soon as one gets recognised by one single acquired trait / skill/ hobby in multiple circles, the person is cutting off his own dimensions. Favouring one dimension over other is alright, being defined by that throughout is extreme.

. I personally have never cared much for the second category although majority on this forum belong to that.

Mostly agree to what you said, not the conclusion though.
Reasons being:
1. This is audio / video centric forum. Very similar to any topic centric forum, it will be dominated by those who have acquired / honed skills over the years, if not decades.
2. As Voltaire (not sure) said: " If you want to converse with me, define your terms. " Now, one either has to define every term or follow the word in current lingua franca or lingo or slang. Even if some terms and their etymology / references hurts one, they convey the meaning for that time. A meme, if you want to correlate.

3: Live example:
"I hope, I was clear. Not, in the bossing / expert sense " , "Did my message got through?", "Was I clear, or did I create more confusion?"

 

[Analogous]

Agree. Reminds me of Elephant and blind men fable. One can't describe a person in single dimension. As soon as one gets recognised by one single acquired trait / skill/ hobby in multiple circles, the person is cutting off his own dimensions. Favouring one dimension over other is alright, being defined by that throughout is extreme.


Mostly agree to what you said, not the conclusion though.
Reasons being:
1. This is audio / video centric forum. Very similar to any topic centric forum, it will be dominated by those who have acquired / honed skills over the years, if not decades.
2. As Voltaire (not sure) said: " If you want to converse with me, define your terms. " Now, one either has to define every term or follow the word in current lingua franca or lingo or slang. Even if some terms and their etymology / references hurts one, they convey the meaning for that time. A meme, if you want to correlate.

3: Live example:
"I hope, I was clear. Not, in the bossing / expert sense " , "Did my message got through?", "Was I clear, or did I create more confusion?"

And whenever I feel “knowledgeable” I remind myself of the famous quote (by I don’t know who): Empty vessels make the loudest noise”

 

[arj]

And whenever I feel “knowledgeable” I remind myself of the famous quote (by I don’t know who): Empty vessels make the loudest noise”

ha ha..I love Bertram Russels quote “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”

 

[imagineer]

ha ha..I love Bertram Russels quote “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”

Also, Henry Ford's quote about experts!

 

[Enkay78]

I am glad Archimago also agrees with what I had discovered in my young journey of hi-fidelity audio (I don’t consider myself an audiophile…….I have stopped fantasizing about vinyl )


To recollect this is my response in the other interesting flog the dead horse thread

Post in thread 'Objectivity vs Subjectivity'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/objectivity-vs-subjectivity.87638/post-984948

It was construed as a flammable comment……whereas I stated the obvious…….truth.

 

[Analogous]

I am glad Archimago also agrees with what I had discovered in my young journey of hi-fidelity audio (I don’t consider myself an audiophile…….I have stopped fantasizing about vinyl )


To recollect this is my response in the other interesting flog the dead horse thread

Post in thread 'Objectivity vs Subjectivity'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/objectivity-vs-subjectivity.87638/post-984948

It was construed as a flammable comment……whereas I stated the obvious…….truth.

I think Archimago’s comment quoted in that thread maybe quite different from what your post says.

Post in thread 'Objectivity vs Subjectivity'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/objectivity-vs-subjectivity.87638/post-984545
For our convenience here it is again:

“….Audiophilia is not a religion. Audiophiles need not be "audiophools". There are no "high priests" in this endeavor with a special, close relationship with ultimate audiophile Truth.

There are no esoteric gnostic rituals needed to enjoy and experience hi-fi sound. As in other areas of life, faith is not bestowed because somebody said so, but in general, earned, whether we're talking about an Industry, the Press, or as individuals.

Modern audio devices are electromechanical products engineered by humans and developed out of scientific principles, not the result of a metaphysical Creator nor complex evolutionary processes, and should not be evaluated any differently.

Some devices sound bad, some great, but none are divine. Beyond objective results, we can still respect a person's subjective preferences, but those are on the level of opinions of which we can all form for ourselves and hopefully, insightfully, civilly express.

Opinions are not necessarily facts. And measurements should also be replicated for confirmation when possible.”

 

[Bloom@83]

Mostly agree to what you said, not the conclusion though.
Reasons being:
1. This is audio / video centric forum. Very similar to any topic centric forum, it will be dominated by those who have acquired / honed skills over the years, if not decades.
2. As Voltaire (not sure) said: " If you want to converse with me, define your terms. " Now, one either has to define every term or follow the word in current lingua franca or lingo or slang. Even if some terms and their etymology / references hurts one, they convey the meaning for that time. A meme, if you want to correlate.

3: Live example:
"I hope, I was clear. Not, in the bossing / expert sense " , "Did my message got through?", "Was I clear, or did I create more confusion?"

I’m not sure if Voltaire had spare time to be an audiophile while sparking off French Revolution- but I’m pretty sure if he had, he would have preferred to define the term ‘source’ when it came to audiophile psychology or gear fetishism.Because quality of source could pretty much wreck or break a great (read expensive ) hardware lineup. I said I do not care for hardware fetish, as after a certain level the incremental improvement vs cost is vanishingly low. Whereas the improvement that could be got about using better quality source and source media ( an even more difficult enterprise IMO ) is jaw-dropping.

 

[arj]

I said I do not care for hardware fetish, as after a certain level the incremental improvement vs cost is vanishingly low. Whereas the improvement that could be got about using better quality source and source media ( an even more difficult enterprise IMO ) is jaw-dropping.

This "Level" this is where the personal variations of value/$$ come into picture. While some feel the difference between a 2500 USD and 5000 USD system are not worth it, others might feel their sweet spot is at 10K USD and still for others this goes up to 30K USD + etc.
the difference between the 10K system and a 100K system may not be much . But some folks feel its worth it !

Yes the source is critical, but once you have a great source and you dont want to go further in that direction, you will start getting to the rest of the chain which will at some point trickle down to cables or vibration control

But irrespective of all that, all of us do recognise that equipment does make a difference and we are all trying to squeeze out the best sound for the $..thats is when one is in the audiophile journey.

 

[Bloom@83]

This "Level" this is where the personal variations of value/$$ come into picture. While some feel the difference between a 2500 USD and 5000 USD system are not worth it, others might feel their sweet spot is at 10K USD and still for others this goes up to 30K USD + etc.
the difference between the 10K system and a 100K system may not be much . But some folks feel its worth it !

Yes the source is critical, but once you have a great source and you dont want to go further in that direction, you will start getting to the rest of the chain which will at some point trickle down to cables or vibration control

But irrespective of all that, all of us do recognise that equipment does make a difference and we are all trying to squeeze out the best sound for the $..thats is when one is in the audiophile journey.

By source I meant both source and source media , specially the latter. As much as there are dedicated discussion platforms for the hardware / gear aspect , there are similar for source media. The same piece of music will sound different on original redbook, DSD , reel-to-reel , hi res streaming and of course vinyl , provided mastering remains the same (which often is not the case ) , and the differences will be amplified the better with better gear. Just as much as there are audiophiles who will keep on upgrading gear while his source media remains same , there are others who will spend the maximum for getting the best sounding source media while his gear , though not state of the art , will remain fixed. My point was that in the latter case , the jump in improvement going from a low quality source media to a higher one is more stark or prominent.

 

[arj]

By source I meant both source and source media , specially the latter. As much as there are dedicated discussion platforms for the hardware / gear aspect , there are similar for source media. The same piece of music will sound different on original redbook, DSD , reel-to-reel , hi res streaming and of course vinyl , provided mastering remains the same (which often is not the case ) , and the differences will be amplified the better with better gear. Just as much as there are audiophiles who will keep on upgrading gear while his source media remains same , there are others who will spend the maximum for getting the best sounding source media while his gear , though not state of the art , will remain fixed. My point was that in the latter case , the jump in improvement going from a low quality source media to a higher one is more stark or prominent.

True thats a limiting factor but once you do , you can get a better system which can further enhance it if it is worth it to you.
Eg you can get a White hot stamper vinyl for First Press of an Eagles Hotel California album . That speaker upgrade worth 10K USD might give a more organic sound to the bass in the beginning. that may be worth 10K to someone and absolutely not to another

An audio upgrade is like the theory of constraints ie identify the weakest link and improve that which could be a cable etc etc or the room itself. Once you identify that and estimate the improvement in some way is when we do the cost benefit ie is it worth it for the money or not.