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Best way to provide 230 v & adequate amps?

Wharfedale EVO 4.1 4.2 Speakers

suri

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I have been led to believe that any transformer used to regulate voltage is a compromise, insofar as audio equipment is concerned.

the main concern, apparently, is the way transformers act as a bottleneck when large surges of current (amps) are needed, especially when dynamic music is being reproduced.

So then, what is the best way to provide constant 230 volts with adequate amperage?
 

gobble

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This is totally untrue. Transformers are actually the best devices for power conversion and isolation if they are properly constructed, which is why power companies use them to get the power to your house. And they are capable of sustaining large overloads as long as the wire is rated to capacity. A well-made EI transformer can take an overload of over 20% of nominal capacity, though regulation does suffer.

To be safe, spec a transformer to 1.5x the rated load and it can deal with most anything :)

Most budget amps I read about use Toroidal core not EI. Can you elaborate on the benefits of one over the other?

TIA

Regards
 

suri

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This is totally untrue. Transformers are actually the best devices for power conversion and isolation if they are properly constructed, which is why power companies use them to get the power to your house. And they are capable of sustaining large overloads as long as the wire is rated to capacity. A well-made EI transformer can take an overload of over 20% of nominal capacity, though regulation does suffer.

To be safe, spec a transformer to 1.5x the rated load and it can deal with most anything :)
Hi cranky,
yesterday, my cd player would not start up and the standby light was blinking rapidly. Guessing the voltage was not adequate i inserted a voltage regulator and the cd player started up. I am not so sure that using a voltage stabiliser (V-guard) was a good idea.

looking for the name of a reliable company and the actual product to buy

please advise
regards
 

Anil kumar

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Toroids weigh half of EI transformers, toroids have extremely good high frequency response, so this may lead to more line noise this can be easilly filtered. They often have a high inrush of current & can be hard on power switches. In EI transformers cores are made out of many parts so air gaps are inevitable and also the direction of the grain and the direction of the flux can never be the same in all parts of the core, limiting the maximum flux that can be used. As a result, they are about twice the size compared to toroids, tend to hum and have a much higher stray field, but also are not too good in transfering HF signals. They are also more time consuming to make than a toroid because of bobbins and the need to optimize winding space, but the core materials are cheaper if you can tolerate size, weight and stray flux, EI could be the option because of lower cost.



Anil
 

soundsgreat

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Hi,

yesterday, my cd player would not start up and the standby light was blinking rapidly. Guessing the voltage was not adequate i inserted a voltage regulator and the cd player started up. I am not so sure that using a voltage stabiliser (V-guard) was a good idea.

Suri was the CDP alone not switching on ?? was other stuff working properly ? like the amp etc ??

As with the Voltage Stabilser I'd suggest a power conditioner and or with Stabilizer in one unit as it'll give many benefits ! Am sorry but V-Gaurd doesn't make such stuff ! I say give Audire a try they are basically into power products only recently came into audio field ! so their power products seems a logical choice (hope its not priced like the audio products though :p ) also I've heard some good things bout them ! also have seen some in action !

Most budget amps I read about use Toroidal core not EI. Can you elaborate on the benefits of one over the other?

Rahul you are mistaken :p! its actually the other way !

Most budget Stuff (Amps,Pre,CDP etc) has a normal E&I transformer,only the High-End stuff is Blessed with Toroid ;)! Ex: A Marantz normal series uses a E&I but the same Series KI Signature adores a Toroid !

As with the Advantages between them goes, I think My buddy Anil has done the job :eek:hyeah: !

I would just add this to his comments, In the E&I (there are also T&U and other types ) the best possible core (the main material or lamination as they call it ) is CRGO (Cold-Rolled Grain Oriented silicon steel) and CRNO (Cold Rolled Non Grain Oriented steel ) !! they are the best and most used in mid level electronics products !

Coming to Toroid, Its superior to E&I coz it uses ferrite core (most commenly) and is known for the low losses compared to steel or other metals ! And since the transformer is round,it in itself has different electrical characteristics compared to square shaped E&I ! and many more !

Too add to this transformer confusion,there is R Core (halogen core ) which is said to be most superior to both E&I and Toroid ! but due the Nature of Hologen and Green house effect that it has very very few or none use them !

Regards.
 
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Asit

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I have been led to believe that any transformer used to regulate voltage is a compromise, insofar as audio equipment is concerned.

the main concern, apparently, is the way transformers act as a bottleneck when large surges of current (amps) are needed, especially when dynamic music is being reproduced.

So then, what is the best way to provide constant 230 volts with adequate amperage?

Every electronic equipment like the amp comes with a maximum power consumption rating. This with a provision for enough headroom can be used very safely to determine the capacity of the source of power. In any case this is always done for every usage, from the wall sources or the power substations, just the scale of power-capacity varies.

There is absolutely no limiting factor in using, for example, a good quality servo stabilizer to provide power to an amp, provided the capacity is large enough.

I have just got installed a servo stabilizer with 3 KVA capacity while my total requirement is perhaps just over 1 KVA. The well-known and good quality ones are Krykard, Vertex and Aplab. In addition, there may be other good ones locally available (like dinyaar mentions that he uses an Argo servo stabilizer available in Bombay). Mine is from Krykard with RFI/Filter and surge suppressor, costing around 13K inclusive of all taxes and shipping. It's a heavy unit, weighing nearly 30 kg. Krykard has offices in Kochi and Tiruvananthapuram. I am sure the other brands mentioned above can also be located near where you live.

The reason I got a 3 KVA, instead of a 2 KVA (as I was initially thinking), is that in a private communication our forum member SuhasG mentioned that the price difference between a 2 KVA unit and a 3 KVA unit is usually not that high and it's always better to get a higher capacity keeping in mind any future increase of requirements.

I can tell you that not only they protect your expensive equipments, the sound quality improves because of cleaner and steadier power supply, a bit like late night sessions when the quality of power supply improves and is a good time generally to listen to music if the neighbours do not complain.

Of course, the most ideal solution would be to use an ultra isolation transformer (UIT) along with a good quality servo based stablizer, but for almost all situations (barring extremes), having a good quality servo stab is enough, I have been told. I actually have plans to get a UIT at a later stage, but have not decided on that.
 
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gobble

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Every electronic equipment like the amp comes with a maximum power consumption rating.

Sorry to digress OT, but do you know the power consumption figures for the nad 325? I was unable to find any.

Regards
 

anm

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I thought these transformers would transmit only a 50hz signal - the AC power. What is the significance of high frequency for the power transformer?

regards

Toroids weigh half of EI transformers, toroids have extremely good high frequency response, so this may lead to more line noise this can be easilly filtered. They often have a high inrush of current & can be hard on power switches. In EI transformers cores are made out of many parts so air gaps are inevitable and also the direction of the grain and the direction of the flux can never be the same in all parts of the core, limiting the maximum flux that can be used. As a result, they are about twice the size compared to toroids, tend to hum and have a much higher stray field, but also are not too good in transfering HF signals. They are also more time consuming to make than a toroid because of bobbins and the need to optimize winding space, but the core materials are cheaper if you can tolerate size, weight and stray flux, EI could be the option because of lower cost.



Anil
 

Asit

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Sorry to digress OT, but do you know the power consumption figures for the nad 325? I was unable to find any.

Regards

Yes, gobble, the user manual does not give the number. But one can make an educated guess, I suppose.

Let's take two examples:

1. My vintage HK6300 amp has a continuously deliverable power rating of only 60 Watts at 8 Ohms, although it is capable of delivering an instantaneous current as large as 38 Amps. The max power consumption is given as around 180 Watts, as far as I can remember.
2. The Leben CS 300 amp is rated at only 12 Watts per channel. But its power consumption is given as 65 Watts.

From the above, I would conclude, the max power consumption in most cases do not exceed 5 to 6 times the continuously deliverable rms power per channel (say at 8 Ohms load).

As a result, the Nad c325bee should not have more than 300 Watts of power consumption. To be absolutely safe, I would say, allocate half a KVA of power source for it.

Anybody having any opinion on my guess above?
 

anm

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Thanks Asit for sharing this. I may get one servo for myself. My guess is you are using this ONLY for your music and not for whole house. Would it be a good idea to use for a whole house? Would that mean getting not so clean electricity because of other motors/ microwaves adding to the noise?

where are these UIT available and how much would the cost?

Every electronic equipment like the amp comes with a maximum power consumption rating. This with a provision for enough headroom can be used very safely to determine the capacity of the source of power. In any case this is always done for every usage, from the wall sources or the power substations, just the scale of power-capacity varies.

There is absolutely no limiting factor in using, for example, a good quality servo stabilizer to provide power to an amp, provided the capacity is large enough.

I have just got installed a servo stabilizer with 3 KVA capacity while my total requirement is perhaps just over 1 KVA. The well-known and good quality ones are Krykard, Vertex and Aplab. In addition, there may be other good ones locally available (like dinyaar mentions that he uses an Argo servo stabilizer available in Bombay). Mine is from Krykard with RFI/Filter and surge suppressor, costing around 13K inclusive of all taxes and shipping. It's a heavy unit, weighing nearly 30 kg. Krykard has offices in Kochi and Tiruvananthapuram. I am sure the other brands mentioned above can also be located near where you live.

The reason I got a 3 KVA, instead of a 2 KVA (as I was initially thinking), is that in a private communication our forum member SuhasG mentioned that the price difference between a 2 KVA unit and a 3 KVA unit is usually not that high and it's always better to get a higher capacity keeping in mind any future increase of requirements.

I can tell you that not only they protect your expensive equipments, the sound quality improves because of cleaner and steadier power supply, a bit like late night sessions when the quality of power supply improves and is a good time generally to listen to music if the neighbours do not complain.

Of course, the most ideal solution would be to use an ultra isolation transformer (UIT) along with a good quality servo based stablizer, but for almost all situations (barring extremes), having a good quality servo stab is enough, I have been told. I actually have plans to get a UIT at a later stage, but have not decided on that.
 

soundsgreat

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Hi,


My vintage HK6300 amp has a continuously deliverable power rating of only 60 Watts at 8 Ohms, although it is capable of delivering an instantaneous current as large as 38 Amps. The max power consumption is given as around 180 Watts, as far as I can remember.

Asit this is true to certain extent!

The Leben CS 300 amp is rated at only 12 Watts per channel. But its power consumption is given as 65 Watts.

This I doubt !

From the above, I would conclude, the max power consumption in most cases do not exceed 5 to 6 times the continuously deliverable rms power per channel (say at 8 Ohms load).

The power supply is usually designed with max rating in mind ! its always 1.5 times the rated output (sometimes more depending the budget,range)! Again without going too much into details,It also depends on the topology of the Amp (since we are specifically talking bout them),as we all know Class A will have maximum power requirement the X Watts of output since they are very very inefficient !! they waste power almost like 80+% of the input ! but where as a Class A/B will be consuming less as they are better ! Class D is most efficient among all,but usually confined to sub and such (although there are some regular amps with this tech)

so if its say for example your HK, the rated 60W @ 8ohm,then the rated power consumption of 180W is true ! but also keep in mind that the same HK is also expected to drive 4Ohm load ! so at 4Ohm the output increases to double (usually or atleast 1.5 times) so then 120W is the output power hence the consumed power will be least 1.5 times,which will make it 360W :D !

So in general as a thumb rule, you can take the least impedance that a Amp supports and calculate the required power or power consumption !!

but in tubes things are bit different ! they are very very least efficient (sometimes worse then Class A) ! since most of the power is wasted in heat (same as Class A) it usually will drain more power from the source then SS !

Hope this is enough ;)!

Regards.
 
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Asit

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Thanks for the input, (sounds)greatly appreciated.

That 65 Watts is actually given as power consumption in the technical spec of the Leben Cs 300 amp. It's an integrated tube amp, class A push-pull design.

Do you think my conservative estimate of 500 VA as an absolute upper limit of max power consumption of gobble's Nad c325bee amp is good enough? It's seems correct (conservatively) from your discussion also. It's only 50 wpc at 8. Even if it goes as 200 watts at 2 Ohms (which it is not), then 200x2x1.5 = 500 Watts is the max. Right (ignoring the power factor there, but it's close to 1 usually)?
 
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Asit

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Thanks Asit for sharing this. I may get one servo for myself. My guess is you are using this ONLY for your music and not for whole house. Would it be a good idea to use for a whole house? Would that mean getting not so clean electricity because of other motors/ microwaves adding to the noise?

where are these UIT available and how much would the cost?

anm, let me address your issues one by one.

Firstly, why do you want a servo for your whole house. Do you want a better shave with your electrical shaver? While this is in principle possible, I do not see any need for it. I am far from an expert in household power supplies, but there may be more efficient solutions, if you really need it.

Secondly, the same brands who make good servo also make these UITs.

Lastly, I made my decision on my servo after a few months of research starting last November (at the end of my CDP thread in the "What should I buy" section, you would know the reason how it got started). Some brands say they make audiophille grade servos and power equipments. Please do find out the details of these. You just need solid time-proven technology for this, nothing much more. Among many other things, Krykard has a special patented Aluminium foil wound transformer that nobody else would give you. I am not an expert in these things as already stated, so you better make your own decision based on your own research. I can only tell you what I have done.
 

anm

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price of UIT?

anm, let me address your issues one by one.

Firstly, why do you want a servo for your whole house. Do you want a better shave with your electrical shaver? While this is in principle possible, I do not see any need for it. I am far from an expert in household power supplies, but there may be more efficient solutions, if you really need it.

Secondly, the same brands who make good servo also make these UITs.

Lastly, I made my decision on my servo after a few months of research starting last November (at the end of my CDP thread in the "What should I buy" section, you would know the reason how it got started). Some brands say they make audiophille grade servos and power equipments. Please do find out the details of these. You just need solid time-proven technology for this, nothing much more. Among many other things, Krykard has a special patented Aluminium foil wound transformer that nobody else would give you. I am not an expert in these things as already stated, so you better make your own decision based on your own research. I can only tell you what I have done.
 

soundsgreat

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Hi,

Asit you are most welcome;) !

It's only 50 wpc at 8. Even if it goes as 200 watts at 2 Ohms (which it is not), then 200x2x1.5 = 500 Watts is the max.

You are wrong !! 200X2=400X1.5= 600 not 500 :p !!

On a more serious note, I don't think the company or we have to worry bout 2Ohm load,not atleast in home Audio !! car audio is different and we are not discussing it here ! So its almost safe to assume what you have Asit and go for the .5kva one !

But just one thing , The transformers themselves being rated 1.5 times have some small things to themselves called Surge or Inrush ! so when selecting a stabilizer or such its usually keeping these surge and inrush voltages/current in mind we have to choose !

What this depicts here is,if a max power consumption from the product is 350W then the same thumb rule as before applies :eek:hyeah: ! which is 350X1.5 ! the additional power although strictly speaking is required can be at times overlooked,as most of the Normal power products (including the Amps) don't have that much of a starting problem ! but when using them for power blocks and such with high current and power its absolutely necessary to have this head room :eek:hyeah: !! Else the power unit will fail with the sudden inrush extracted from the Amp :p !

Regards.
 

gobble

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So I would need 1.8kva setup - round it off to 2kva. This should take care of my cdp+amp. What if I buy a pre-amp in future? And a T.T? And a DAC? will 2Kva still do?

Regards
 

soundsgreat

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Hi,


So I would need 1.8kva setup - round it off to 2kva

Rahul how did you arrive at this figure :p? coz your amp even calculating at 4Ohms only needs 450W of power Unit (CVT,Servo or whatever you choose) !!

So I say you should go for a 1Kva keeping future things in mind !! thats more then enough ;) !

Regards.
 

Asit

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Anm,
I suppose you have to call one of these companies to find out. Good ones are not cheap. however.

Gobble,
Where did you get that number from? I am puzzled, too! However, I'd suggest you should go for 2 KVA keeping in mind future expansions.

Soundsgreat,
Sorry for the miscalculation, very sloppy of me. Thanks for pointing out.
 

cmsajith

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There is no harm in putting a servo stabilizer for the full house. You can avoid all the individual stabilizers for fridge, tv, audio etc and can be kept isolated somewhere down the staircase. Mine is an apartment, so I bought a 3KVa from Vertex (11500/-) with emi/rf filters,surge suppressor etc., and he offered a 10KVA (enough for a full house) for 16000/-. Take a separate line from stab for the Audio/TV setup with emi/rf filters and surge suppressors for this line. You can use an isolation trans in this line for more protection.
 
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