Boomy bass in some songs

[chander]

Hello my good folks.

First of all let me apologise posting this query here - I couldn't find exactly where to put this - also I realised in the end we will have to buy something to counter the issue (as always); so why not.

So here it goes, I went to a friend's house today and we sat down with a glass of wine and some music going while catching up after a long long time before he leaves for a couple of months. So he put on some music on his system.

Let me give you a little idea here before I post the issue -
The room where music is is 30ft by 12ft and is divided by a wooden divider that runs the height of the room.
His system is a pair of Amphion Helium 410 (very nice sounding stuff), driven by a NAD M10 - this is also connected to a TV .
On one side is a massive glass door that opens into a large balcony but covered with thick wooden blinds to remove any resonance from the glass).

Sorry - coming to the issue.
His system sounds very good and composed, with very taut bass - no extra this or that. However on certain songs there is a lot of boominess, that doesn't exist on others, even bass heavy songs. We heard the songs on both Tidal and Spotify and for the exact same songs the boominess exists on both sources but the others are very taut.

Just to give an example.
I would rather go blind - Etta James - Boomy on both sources (we had no PC with FLACs/DSDs to try or any other source).
Demons - Fat Boy Slim - Beautiful, punchy bass all along on both sources. It is a song with fat distorted bass.
Take Yo' Praise - Camille Tarbrough - Super boomy though this song has a very beautiful bass line
Papa was a rolling stones - The Temptations - fat, clean, superb bass.

We wondered why? Is it the recordings? Positioning of the system? Is it there are certain bass frequencies wreaking havoc? I know these songs from my system and from Spotify - in my system - none of these are boomy (mind you my system is anyway pretty bass lean - for most people's standard).

What could be the reason? What can be the first steps to rectify this?

 

[sydney]

1. Play test tones (thru spotify) and check which freq causes this. Mostly it should be some freq betn 60-125Hz
2. Try to use some equalizer to tame the particular freq e.g. i use Roons parametic equalizer to tame the 80hz freq

 

[efernand1]

Hello my good folks.

First of all let me apologise posting this query here - I couldn't find exactly where to put this - also I realised in the end we will have to buy something to counter the issue (as always); so why not.

So here it goes, I went to a friend's house today and we sat down with a glass of wine and some music going while catching up after a long long time before he leaves for a couple of months. So he put on some music on his system.

Let me give you a little idea here before I post the issue -
The room where music is is 30ft by 12ft and is divided by a wooden divider that runs the height of the room.
His system is a pair of Amphion Helium 410 (very nice sounding stuff), driven by a NAD M10 - this is also connected to a TV .
On one side is a massive glass door that opens into a large balcony but covered with thick wooden blinds to remove any resonance from the glass).

Sorry - coming to the issue.
His system sounds very good and composed, with very taut bass - no extra this or that. However on certain songs there is a lot of boominess, that doesn't exist on others, even bass heavy songs. We heard the songs on both Tidal and Spotify and for the exact same songs the boominess exists on both sources but the others are very taut.

Just to give an example.
I would rather go blind - Etta James - Boomy on both sources (we had no PC with FLACs/DSDs to try or any other source).
Demons - Fat Boy Slim - Beautiful, punchy bass all along on both sources. It is a song with fat distorted bass.
Take Yo' Praise - Camille Tarbrough - Super boomy though this song has a very beautiful bass line
Papa was a rolling stones - The Temptations - fat, clean, superb bass.

We wondered why? Is it the recordings? Positioning of the system? Is it there are certain bass frequencies wreaking havoc? I know these songs from my system and from Spotify - in my system - none of these are boomy (mind you my system is anyway pretty bass lean - for most people's standard).

What could be the reason? What can be the first steps to rectify this?

Based on the models, I had a look at the Owners Manual and it seems the NAD M10 has enough juice to run these speakers. My first guess would be the placement. I am sure when the system was purchased, there would have been no such issues noticed by your friend. Has he recently changed the placement or has something changed? The speakers are rear ported so is there some mandated space to be maintained when placing these speakers?

It would possibly be helpful to share a pic of the listening area with the speakers placement. Another thing to check if pairing another amp (borrowed ofcourse) gives a different / better sound playback?

 

[grindstone]

Fast experiment (for your friend, anyway) to confirm/eliminate room mode. If necessary to remember positions, put masking tape on the floor where speakers are, then move one maybe 1.5-2m. Do same for listening position (one at a time!). If not room, go after sources and speakers as sydney posted. Good luck and please post results.

 

[aeroash]

What could be the reason? What can be the first steps to rectify this?

This is purely a speaker / seating placement issue. I went through a similar ordeal in the 80Hz to 100Hz region.

Play test tones through Spotify, use the link below.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2...i=6CoLpblsRuGYDRLGr9T40w&utm_source=copy-link

1. Close the rear port of the speakers with a foam bung. You can also use socks. This will tighten the sound, but you might lose out on some bass.
2. Play the Test Tones to figure the offending tone that is causing boominess.
3. Move your speakers away from the wall as much as possible
4. Keep the offending tone playing, walk closer, or further (If there's space) to the speakers from the seating position. There will be a spot where the boominess disappears; that's your new seating position. Of course, it has to be practical, you can't be too close to the speakers!

These steps should help you tame the boominess, but you'll also have to consider the sweet-spot, if you move too forward or back from the speakers you'll loose out on the sweet-spot. Find a balance between taming boominess, and keeping a sweet-spot that is satisfactory.


Alternatives to consider if the above steps fail:
1. Move your speaker to a different wall in the room.
2. Get a subwoofer. This way, only higher frequencies can be sent to the LR speakers and the sub can handle anything below that. Reason being, a subwoofer will give you the flexibility of moving it around to find the right spot to tame the boominess.
3. Graphic/Parametric Equaliser. You can dial down the offending frequency with this. Not the best solution, but works, to some extent.

Cheers & Good Luck!

 

[chander]

Thanks a ton for your inputs - also nothing can be done for atleast 2 months as he should have left today morning.

The placement seems optimal for what the room gives - there is not much that can be done with a setup like that in a room like that. He has a 15X12ft (approx) space available to him - that houses - a sofa - 2 chairs - a coffee table - a media console - a bunch of lamps - a tv - and 2 bookshelf speakers, I am sure I am missing a few things . He has taken them out, well into the room - around 2ft from any surface, with a very slight toe in.

@efernand1 - Not sure if he ever noticed these issues or not - I think he was fine with it as it is only on certain songs. It is only when we met that his peace was stirred. Also he said he can live with it (as he has been) - it is me that is more inquisitive here from an academic point of view.

@sydney @grindstone & @aeroash - thanks - we will try and experiment with the equipment I have available and the steps provided. If not his

Thanks a ton guys.

 

[DB1989]

1. Play test tones (thru spotify) and check which freq causes this. Mostly it should be some freq betn 60-125Hz
2. Try to use some equalizer to tame the particular freq e.g. i use Roons parametic equalizer to tame the 80hz freq

This is purely a speaker / seating placement issue. I went through a similar ordeal in the 80Hz to 100Hz region.

Play test tones through Spotify, use the link below.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2...i=6CoLpblsRuGYDRLGr9T40w&utm_source=copy-link

1. Close the rear port of the speakers with a foam bung. You can also use socks. This will tighten the sound, but you might lose out on some bass.
2. Play the Test Tones to figure the offending tone that is causing boominess.
3. Move your speakers away from the wall as much as possible
4. Keep the offending tone playing, walk closer, or further (If there's space) to the speakers from the seating position. There will be a spot where the boominess disappears; that's your new seating position. Of course, it has to be practical, you can't be too close to the speakers!

These steps should help you tame the boominess, but you'll also have to consider the sweet-spot, if you move too forward or back from the speakers you'll loose out on the sweet-spot. Find a balance between taming boominess, and keeping a sweet-spot that is satisfactory.


Alternatives to consider if the above steps fail:
1. Move your speaker to a different wall in the room.
2. Get a subwoofer. This way, only higher frequencies can be sent to the LR speakers and the sub can handle anything below that. Reason being, a subwoofer will give you the flexibility of moving it around to find the right spot to tame the boominess.
3. Graphic/Parametric Equaliser. You can dial down the offending frequency with this. Not the best solution, but works, to some extent.

Cheers & Good Luck!

Would have suggested the same but in view of the abovementioned great step by step recommendations +1

 

[Fiftyfifty]

@chander, something in the room is resonating at the same frequency as the one where you hear the boom - could be the false ceiling, the rack, the glass window, anything. And is the listening position very close to the rear wall?

I would try moving the listening position at least 2 feet further from the rear wall and putting decoupling isolators under the speakers and the equipment rack.

Best wishes

 

[Hari Iyer]

1. Play test tones (thru spotify) and check which freq causes this. Mostly it should be some freq betn 60-125Hz
2. Try to use some equalizer to tame the particular freq e.g. i use Roons parametic equalizer to tame the 80hz freq

If the minimum phase group delay at those boomy frequency has a peak in its response it cannot be corrected by using an EQ.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Hello my good folks.

First of all let me apologise posting this query here - I couldn't find exactly where to put this - also I realised in the end we will have to buy something to counter the issue (as always); so why not.

So here it goes, I went to a friend's house today and we sat down with a glass of wine and some music going while catching up after a long long time before he leaves for a couple of months. So he put on some music on his system.

Let me give you a little idea here before I post the issue -
The room where music is is 30ft by 12ft and is divided by a wooden divider that runs the height of the room.
His system is a pair of Amphion Helium 410 (very nice sounding stuff), driven by a NAD M10 - this is also connected to a TV .
On one side is a massive glass door that opens into a large balcony but covered with thick wooden blinds to remove any resonance from the glass).

Sorry - coming to the issue.
His system sounds very good and composed, with very taut bass - no extra this or that. However on certain songs there is a lot of boominess, that doesn't exist on others, even bass heavy songs. We heard the songs on both Tidal and Spotify and for the exact same songs the boominess exists on both sources but the others are very taut.

Just to give an example.
I would rather go blind - Etta James - Boomy on both sources (we had no PC with FLACs/DSDs to try or any other source).
Demons - Fat Boy Slim - Beautiful, punchy bass all along on both sources. It is a song with fat distorted bass.
Take Yo' Praise - Camille Tarbrough - Super boomy though this song has a very beautiful bass line
Papa was a rolling stones - The Temptations - fat, clean, superb bass.

We wondered why? Is it the recordings? Positioning of the system? Is it there are certain bass frequencies wreaking havoc? I know these songs from my system and from Spotify - in my system - none of these are boomy (mind you my system is anyway pretty bass lean - for most people's standard).

What could be the reason? What can be the first steps to rectify this?

Most likely a peak somewhere between 30-60Hz. EQ.

 

[viveshsahu]

Hello my good folks.

First of all let me apologise posting this query here - I couldn't find exactly where to put this - also I realised in the end we will have to buy something to counter the issue (as always); so why not.

So here it goes, I went to a friend's house today and we sat down with a glass of wine and some music going while catching up after a long long time before he leaves for a couple of months. So he put on some music on his system.

Let me give you a little idea here before I post the issue -
The room where music is is 30ft by 12ft and is divided by a wooden divider that runs the height of the room.
His system is a pair of Amphion Helium 410 (very nice sounding stuff), driven by a NAD M10 - this is also connected to a TV .
On one side is a massive glass door that opens into a large balcony but covered with thick wooden blinds to remove any resonance from the glass).

Sorry - coming to the issue.
His system sounds very good and composed, with very taut bass - no extra this or that. However on certain songs there is a lot of boominess, that doesn't exist on others, even bass heavy songs. We heard the songs on both Tidal and Spotify and for the exact same songs the boominess exists on both sources but the others are very taut.

Just to give an example.
I would rather go blind - Etta James - Boomy on both sources (we had no PC with FLACs/DSDs to try or any other source).
Demons - Fat Boy Slim - Beautiful, punchy bass all along on both sources. It is a song with fat distorted bass.
Take Yo' Praise - Camille Tarbrough - Super boomy though this song has a very beautiful bass line
Papa was a rolling stones - The Temptations - fat, clean, superb bass.

We wondered why? Is it the recordings? Positioning of the system? Is it there are certain bass frequencies wreaking havoc? I know these songs from my system and from Spotify - in my system - none of these are boomy (mind you my system is anyway pretty bass lean - for most people's standard).

What could be the reason? What can be the first steps to rectify this?

I would say a bit of everything. some recordings are so poorly done that no matter what you do they will sound boomy. Try some well recorded tracks and if they sound good without getting boomy then everything is fine. In case you have placed the speakers very close to rear wall or side wall try to change the speaker placement.

 

[aljojohn]

better to delete the particular songs from the library otherwise you will end up in vain..

 

[drlowmu]

Approximately one in three recordings are recorded OUT of absolute phase ( in both channels ). They will never play back correctly, unless speaker leads on BOTH channels are reversed. It is heard wide band, but for me, very noticeable in the bass regions. Flip speaker leads and see. Best to DENOTE all out of absolute phase recordings, and play them back properly. Every third listening night can be so designated .

Jeff

 

[raghupb]

Approximately one in three recordings are recorded OUT of absolute phase ( in both channels ). They will never play back correctly, unless speaker leads on BOTH channels are reversed. It is heard wide band, but for me, very noticeable in the bass regions. Flip speaker leads and see. Best to DENOTE all out of absolute phase recordings, and play them back properly. Every third listening night can be so designated .

Jeff

Wow!!
Now we suspect recordings too. And swap cables or polarity or both. Is there an end to this?

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Bloom@83]

Approximately one in three recordings are recorded OUT of absolute phase ( in both channels ). They will never play back correctly, unless speaker leads on BOTH channels are reversed. It is heard wide band, but for me, very noticeable in the bass regions. Flip speaker leads and see. Best to DENOTE all out of absolute phase recordings, and play them back properly. Every third listening night can be so designated .

Jeff

Giving away one third of my record collection since they must be recorded out of phase. Watch out the Giveaway thread.

 

[drlowmu]

Wow!!
Now we suspect recordings too. And swap cables or polarity or both. Is there an end to this?

Cheers,
Raghu

Hello Raghu,

FYI, very early stereo and mono tube preamps and receivers would have " Phase Reversal " switches, located right on the front control panel. The end user could listen to both phases, and decide for himself, what was correct for any particular source.

This has been absent for many many decades now. Yes, if you are attuned to what proper absolute phase sounds like ( I am ) you can hear the source properly by swapping BOTH channels speaker cables, at the amp, positive and negative reversed.

One example, the older Stereophile " Test CD " has a section where " Ralph the dog " barks, and they tell you what is recorded in phase, and when it is out of phase. The commentator at the end of this test, concludes by announcing " Thank You Ralph". It's cute.

It may not be quite 1/3, but I am confident it's over 1/4 of all recordings.

I personally own a large sample to judge this, more than 10,000 LPs . It is not to be suspected, ..........it is true !!

Last week, I had a Hong Kong audiophile email and tell me he finds about 1/3rd of his recordings to be out of absolute phase, and we adjusts speaker leads to hear them as he wants to ( fullest fidelity ). I hope this information helps you.

Jeff

 

[IndianEars]

My Audio Research Ref6 Pre Amp has a phase reversal switch on the front panel.

I find it useful & yes, I find phase reversal, audible.

 

[Bloom@83]

Older preamp designs may incorporate many things which are not used in current design.
My own Dynaco Pas3X tube preamp has a Stereo/Mono switch which I find very useful to listen to some LPs from the seventies in ERS .

However I would like to see some documentation/links to this ‘claim’ that one third or one even fourth recordings are recorded out of absolute phase.

 

[grk59]

Hello my good folks.

First of all let me apologise posting this query here - I couldn't find exactly where to put this - also I realised in the end we will have to buy something to counter the issue (as always); so why not.

So here it goes, I went to a friend's house today and we sat down with a glass of wine and some music going while catching up after a long long time before he leaves for a couple of months. So he put on some music on his system.

Let me give you a little idea here before I post the issue -
The room where music is is 30ft by 12ft and is divided by a wooden divider that runs the height of the room.
His system is a pair of Amphion Helium 410 (very nice sounding stuff), driven by a NAD M10 - this is also connected to a TV .
On one side is a massive glass door that opens into a large balcony but covered with thick wooden blinds to remove any resonance from the glass).

Sorry - coming to the issue.
His system sounds very good and composed, with very taut bass - no extra this or that. However on certain songs there is a lot of boominess, that doesn't exist on others, even bass heavy songs. We heard the songs on both Tidal and Spotify and for the exact same songs the boominess exists on both sources but the others are very taut.

Just to give an example.
I would rather go blind - Etta James - Boomy on both sources (we had no PC with FLACs/DSDs to try or any other source).
Demons - Fat Boy Slim - Beautiful, punchy bass all along on both sources. It is a song with fat distorted bass.
Take Yo' Praise - Camille Tarbrough - Super boomy though this song has a very beautiful bass line
Papa was a rolling stones - The Temptations - fat, clean, superb bass.

We wondered why? Is it the recordings? Positioning of the system? Is it there are certain bass frequencies wreaking havoc? I know these songs from my system and from Spotify - in my system - none of these are boomy (mind you my system is anyway pretty bass lean - for most people's standard).

What could be the reason? What can be the first steps to rectify this?

This solely depends on the recording. Please do not change the settings every time. Ignore and enjoy your music.

 

[DB1989]

My Audio Research Ref6 Pre Amp has a phase reversal switch on the front panel.

I find it useful & yes, I find phase reversal, audible.

Its very useful. The RME ADI 2 DAC FS can also reverse the phase for each channel individually or both at that. I recall a recent experience where I'd mistakenly reversed the phases while connecting some new wires to my right channel and immediately it sounded off. The folly wasn't obvious as a quick glance at the banana plugs indicated that they were fitted correctly. Instead of going squinting behind the amplifier as well to check the plus, simply reversed each channel individually as well as collectively and voila! I'd fitted red coloured banana plugs on the black wire for the right Channel. Very convenient.

This solely depends on the recording. Please do not change the settings every time. Ignore and enjoy your music.

Wish that was the case.