Cadence vs Lyrita vs Rethm
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GeorgeO
Well-Known Member
As I said earlier,to each his own.. I for one never listen to my FR without my sub-the sub is always on. My ported 2 ways using Scanspeaks is a different kettle of fish-the LF extension is so good that I don't need to use a sub.
Listen to the theme music from Bombay, composed by AR Rehman, and you may be quite surprised at what you hear-without a sub, listen to it using FRs , and it's a pale shadow of its real self.
'Nuff said on this subject from me!
Listen to the theme music from Bombay, composed by AR Rehman, and you may be quite surprised at what you hear-without a sub, listen to it using FRs , and it's a pale shadow of its real self.
'Nuff said on this subject from me!
I agree about the timbre and harmonics part but all I am saying is that absence of sub 50hz frequencies is not absence of musicality. Everywhere we make compromises, with a 2 or 3-way the crossover is the compromise, with a FullRange the frequency extension (in direct comparison). I do feel the diamond 9.2 renders the Mridangam better than than my current FR (ignoring its other defects), but I expect my F5 or GC/NAD with a DIY passive equalization circuit to correct that and restore the cripsiness. Besides it is not as if the frequencies are cut off abruptly at a set point, the volume at which these are rendered tapers down, the harmonics are there but subdued and if what you say were to be 100% correct then 2-way or 3-way speakers would always sound more accurate than any FR. which is not a proven and established case.
It can also be said that if 2-way and 3-way with sub were always more accurate in timber and tonality then FRs would cease to exist.
Cheers
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not sure if I understood your point right..there is not doubt musicality exists but questions is how much of the recording you are actually hearing along with the music ie how much of the music are you hearing for the musicality
musicality can exist very much even between 100 Hz to 4 Khz where most of the human sound is residing and you may not hear a lot of instruments(Althought the sound would still be musical)
this may be a slight exaggeration but the concept remains the same. the question is how much of a compromise one is willing to live with regarding missing out what is there and still be happy
I have heard this many times, but I somehow dont understand this. If you have just a single sub, which is crossed over lets say at 80hz, the sound below 80hz is supposed to be non-directional. So you cant make out which direction the sound is coming from. Hence, one sub or 10 subs should not make a difference (apart from the SPL levels of course).
Well doors666,
Directionality is one thing - the ability to hear from where sound is coming. What exactly is contained in that sound is another aspect altogether and is something you'd hear or not hear, irrespective of whether one is able to localize the sound's origin or not.
regards
Directionality is one thing - the ability to hear from where sound is coming. What exactly is contained in that sound is another aspect altogether and is something you'd hear or not hear, irrespective of whether one is able to localize the sound's origin or not.
regards
square_wave
Well-Known Member
With FRs, dual subs are definitely needed. We are talking about fast subwoofers using light cones and a superfast rise-time which can crossover at speakers which have an F3 of 65 Hz or so.
This is very different from having a sub crossover at around 40 Hz for a floor stander. In such a setup a large single sub may work well.
Most home theatre subwoofers and subwoofers designed to crossover at very low frequencies come with a built-in amplifier having a lot of bass-EQ in it. It creates the 'one-note bass' problem. It works for subwoofers making a loud 'boom' for movies. Also, the woofers are made to stroke really far for the loud sound effects of movies, a long stroke which is never needed for music, but that long stoke has a serious consequence: A heavy-duty suspension does not move on the small sounds of music, because it must be hit firmly to 'break loose'. Therefore, it misses much of the rhythm of the music when played 'normally'
If this is not done right, a FR lover will never be happy with such a setup. Even a slight variance and you will hear emphasized bass or timing mismatch which can cause your mind to wander away from the mid-range magic an FR is capable of.
The rethm sadhanas do a good job of this. I am sure the omegas with their super fast subs do as well.
This is very different from having a sub crossover at around 40 Hz for a floor stander. In such a setup a large single sub may work well.
Most home theatre subwoofers and subwoofers designed to crossover at very low frequencies come with a built-in amplifier having a lot of bass-EQ in it. It creates the 'one-note bass' problem. It works for subwoofers making a loud 'boom' for movies. Also, the woofers are made to stroke really far for the loud sound effects of movies, a long stroke which is never needed for music, but that long stoke has a serious consequence: A heavy-duty suspension does not move on the small sounds of music, because it must be hit firmly to 'break loose'. Therefore, it misses much of the rhythm of the music when played 'normally'
If this is not done right, a FR lover will never be happy with such a setup. Even a slight variance and you will hear emphasized bass or timing mismatch which can cause your mind to wander away from the mid-range magic an FR is capable of.
The rethm sadhanas do a good job of this. I am sure the omegas with their super fast subs do as well.
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Ah Square wave,
Good point. You beat me to it, was just about to say that the sub better be fast to keep up with the single driver otherwise major mismatch problems. Finding a good one would surely be in the higher price ranges. Omega being a manufacturer of their own drivers am sure have this taken care of. Prem too seems to like how they've integrated the sub in his newer model.
regards
Good point. You beat me to it, was just about to say that the sub better be fast to keep up with the single driver otherwise major mismatch problems. Finding a good one would surely be in the higher price ranges. Omega being a manufacturer of their own drivers am sure have this taken care of. Prem too seems to like how they've integrated the sub in his newer model.
regards
I dont get it, how do you miss sound if you are using 1 sub instead of two?? Could you please elaborate more as to what goes missing.. I have never heard a 2 sub setup as compared to one, so i have no idea.
My point with respect to directionality was that if you cannot pin point the location of a sub, you definitely cannot tell how many subs are running. For all practical purposes (barring SPL) one sub=2 subs. Though didnt know about missing music.
Is there a huge difference in sound quality running 2 subs versus one sub, or is it something as miniscule a difference as say a power cord makes.
With FRs, dual subs are definitely needed. We are talking about fast subwoofers using light cones and a superfast rise-time which can crossover at speakers which have an F3 of 65 Hz or so.
This is very different from having a sub crossover at around 40 Hz for a floor stander. In such a setup a large single sub may work well.
</QUOTE>
Not many people crossover at 40hz even if they have floorstanders. They offload the lf to the sub, even though the FS can handle the job fine. It does give better sound quality. My BS have an f3 of around 52hz, I still crossover at 80hz. My wife can hear the difference in sound quality with the sub on, and she's an audiophobe.
<QUOTE>
Most home theatre subwoofers and subwoofers designed to crossover at very low frequencies come with a built-in amplifier having a lot of bass-EQ in it. It creates the 'one-note bass' problem. It works for subwoofers making a loud 'boom' for movies. Also, the woofers are made to stroke really far for the loud sound effects of movies, a long stroke which is never needed for music, but that long stoke has a serious consequence: A heavy-duty suspension does not move on the small sounds of music, because it must be hit firmly to 'break loose'. Therefore, it misses much of the rhythm of the music when played 'normally'
</QUOTE>
Thats just plain bad design, and unfortunately its intentional by the manufacturers. Assuming a well designed and good subwoofer. These issues should not be there.
<QUOTE>
If this is not done right, a FR lover will never be happy with such a setup. Even a slight variance and you will hear emphasized bass or timing mismatch which can cause your mind to wander away from the mid-range magic an FR is capable of.
The rethm sadhanas do a good job of this. I am sure the omegas with their super fast subs do as well.
Hmm. gotta try it. There are tons of people on the web that are running good FR setups with subs without any issues. I want to go for a FR system, but dont want to loose out on the bass. So planning to go for nearfield FR computer speakers, with an 8" sub. both diy.
Anyway, more than bass, the issue for many people is hf response. I mentioned this earlier, but didnt get a response. Since the magic of the FR is in the midrange, and the problem is the crossover, how good are the results when you crossover a tweeter with a FR in a way that the crossover point is beyond the midrange. e.g. at 8khz. Has anyone tried this here. How are the results.
Would this depend solely on the driver size or other factors are also involved. Why I am asking this is because usually the small drivers fail miserably in large sized rooms. they just dont have it in them to move huge amounts of air.
Hi doors666,
Apologies for the sketchy explanation but I'd have to dig up that pdf to reproduce exactly how and what goes missing. A layman's understanding of what I could get from that pdf and what I remember now is that in each channel left and right there are cues embedded, ambient cues, spatial cues, venue cues etc. And if one were to merge both the channels, some cancellation would happen and you'd lose out on this sort of information. Hence the need for two subs, one for left channel and one for right to reproduce everything in its separate glory. Eg the US dist had found on a track that was recorded in a big hall/church when using one sub he and the customer for whom he was setting it up found that the fact that fact that it was being played in hall/church wasn't as noticeable as when there were two subs in the equation, there was more of the spatial cues that re-created the recording ambience. Hope this makes some sense?
As to your other point, yes I'd agree with you that one would miss the treble more than the bass in a pure single driver set up. Especially if the FR is a floorstander. I'd choose a supertweeter over a sub if I had to choose only one to add to a single driver.
Disclaimer: I've never heard a FR with a sub or a supertweeter but am basing my response on my own set up which is a pure single driver floorstander where I have more than enough bass on tap for my room.
regards
Apologies for the sketchy explanation but I'd have to dig up that pdf to reproduce exactly how and what goes missing. A layman's understanding of what I could get from that pdf and what I remember now is that in each channel left and right there are cues embedded, ambient cues, spatial cues, venue cues etc. And if one were to merge both the channels, some cancellation would happen and you'd lose out on this sort of information. Hence the need for two subs, one for left channel and one for right to reproduce everything in its separate glory. Eg the US dist had found on a track that was recorded in a big hall/church when using one sub he and the customer for whom he was setting it up found that the fact that fact that it was being played in hall/church wasn't as noticeable as when there were two subs in the equation, there was more of the spatial cues that re-created the recording ambience. Hope this makes some sense?
As to your other point, yes I'd agree with you that one would miss the treble more than the bass in a pure single driver set up. Especially if the FR is a floorstander. I'd choose a supertweeter over a sub if I had to choose only one to add to a single driver.
Disclaimer: I've never heard a FR with a sub or a supertweeter but am basing my response on my own set up which is a pure single driver floorstander where I have more than enough bass on tap for my room.
regards
I am zilch on subs and what technically makes a fast sub a fast sub
so someone else more technically knowledgeable will have to field this question.
hi square_wave -
such subwoofers (for medium and large rooms) are NOT in production -
there is no subwoofer made (today) that will match the Lowther for speed-
the implementation in the latest rethms you must hear to realise why-
best to make a transmission line sub-woofer with- https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_338_380&products_id=8663
and avoid using the lowther with it
perhaps, a fostex (which is slower than the lowther) would be a better match.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
@ Suri,
I am sure what you are saying is true. It is very difficult to match a FR driver especially a lowther with a sub.
I have a feeling the omega subwoofers with its alnico drivers may have done a good job.
@doors,
There are very few subs out there which can work its way upto 80hz and still seamlessly blend itself into a fast main speaker. Works for home theatre but if you have Count Basie blast through such a setup, you will hear the bass plodding along like an elephant while the trumpets and cymbols will be lightning fast like a 100mt sprinter. You will also hear a hazy, muddy hole where the sub meets the mains. The entire sound spectrum will not be part of the same cloth
I am sure what you are saying is true. It is very difficult to match a FR driver especially a lowther with a sub.
I have a feeling the omega subwoofers with its alnico drivers may have done a good job.
@doors,
There are very few subs out there which can work its way upto 80hz and still seamlessly blend itself into a fast main speaker. Works for home theatre but if you have Count Basie blast through such a setup, you will hear the bass plodding along like an elephant while the trumpets and cymbols will be lightning fast like a 100mt sprinter. You will also hear a hazy, muddy hole where the sub meets the mains. The entire sound spectrum will not be part of the same cloth
GeorgeO
Well-Known Member
Stevie: Yes my subs are both diy ones, using 12 inch drivers, with passive radiators, and plate amps of 175/250 watts power. So while I am not a newbie with subs, suffice it to say that I have some knowledge about them. I use them ( and have been using them for 2 channel audio for the past 10 years )
However, the real guru for subs is Tom Danley, one of his products is this one, going down to 10Hz:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/DTS 10 spec sheet.pdf
All this talk of FR systems not being suited for subwoofers, that two subs( and only two subs) are the way with FRs, but can be combined with super tweeters, fast subs, etc is making my head spin. Bob Brines, who designed my MLTLs is of the view that supertweeters and subs enhance the performance of the single driver units that he designs, and I tend to agree with him. As I said earlier-to each his own.
I'm a simple hands on guy, not a theoretician. I know what I like. I'm not going to make any more posts on this thread, even if someone asks me a question!!
However, the real guru for subs is Tom Danley, one of his products is this one, going down to 10Hz:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/DTS 10 spec sheet.pdf
All this talk of FR systems not being suited for subwoofers, that two subs( and only two subs) are the way with FRs, but can be combined with super tweeters, fast subs, etc is making my head spin. Bob Brines, who designed my MLTLs is of the view that supertweeters and subs enhance the performance of the single driver units that he designs, and I tend to agree with him. As I said earlier-to each his own.
I'm a simple hands on guy, not a theoretician. I know what I like. I'm not going to make any more posts on this thread, even if someone asks me a question!!
Hey george pls dont "Dont post" .. you are not even mildly close to being controversial here !
the advantage of dual subs is a lot more than about stereo separation..it is about room loading. symmetrically placed subs cancel out a lot of room node effects and make the sound more even. If i remember right, as per an article by Dr tool of harman.. 4 subs is the best in a regular room!
hifiashok
Well-Known Member
a visit to George's home (a privilege i was fortunately able to enjoy a while back) is a treat to any AP. i'm sure he would have completed doing up the basement by now.
hifiashok
Well-Known Member
btw, where is the OP and the intent of this thread!?!
Get the Wharfedale EVO 4.2 3-Way Standmount Speakers at a Special Offer Price.
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