Cadence vs Lyrita vs Rethm

[gobble]

Well at least I think I understand what Stevie is trying to say when he talks about enjoying the music as whole not paying attention to the parts. Not that my rig suffers from boomy bass that I have to ignore the less pleasant aspects and focus on the overall presentation - actually it is the reverse with my bass-reflex FR (predictably) overdamped and the cabinet design documented as such by Fostex.

But I understand wholly (no pun intended) what he means - although I would not like to compromise too much on frequency extension of highs and lows. One should recall our childhood spent enjoying music in near hypnotic trance like state on really cheap 2-in-one gear - where was the frequency extension and great treble then? Again recently I was reminded of this when listening to Santhol's new TT - the heavy HiFi sound was absent yet the music was effortless and flowed freely as compared to the "heavy" sounding CDP.

And talking about audiophile qualities, for daily listening I plan to go mono by next year - because I found my brain zeroes in on the single point source in a way that parallels mental focus and concentration like during the act of studying for ones board exams in school - and I actually end-up listening more keenly and enjoying it better. I mean to say - One can certainly enjoy the music in the absence of some audiophile traits in SQ. Obviously mono has less of the audiophile imaging traits than stereo, yet I expect to enjoy it better.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts as they say.

Cheers

 

[stevieboy]

Yeah Arj, I guess so

 

[stevieboy]

And talking about audiophile qualities, for daily listening I plan to go mono by next year
Cheers

??? How are you planning on doing this Gobble? I quite like some of the mono tracks I have on CDs and LPs...

 

[hifiashok]

dear op,

i find myself in a sort of unique position.

i have owned the Cadence VA-1 (the 36W'er, not 20W). these drove the Cadence Aristas (rest of the chain in the signature). they are now driven by the Cadence Canasyas. i have had the privilege (and pleasure) of knowing virenji, after my purchase of the Cadence parts of my rig. i, with a few other delhi APs, have had the privilege of checking the Aristas driven by his 15W (6C33C) tube amp. http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/5201-i-am-offered-cadence-va-1hp-8.html#post62501 i have also had the privilege of seeing his amitys develop, against some APs request for a full range/two driver model after hearing/seeing the harmony 1s, to address their need to hear the rolled-off highs and lows.

i have gone across to prithvi's to personally hear the rethm sadhanas. incidentally, prithvi used to be associated with Cadence in his/their early days.

i am in delhi.

let me submit a few inputs to assist you.

if you are speaking of a total package, for me, the amitys with the 15W (or maybe now the 845 baser) is the best combo, esp. since you are based in g'gn (but then, you may go stevie's way with the 2A3 or 45s and the harmony 1s from your listening session experience). i am including virenji, his courtesy, knowledge, experience and all else that he brings to the table in this 'package'. that's possibly where Cadence loses out, and you have experienced this. i have said this before and am repeating it. if i had met virenji before deciding on the Cadence components, i may not have gone for them. but my decision was made very long ago and all i was doing was working toward them. the buying, etc., experience was far from comfortable, at different levels. but then, that is my side of the experience. i'm certain, prejudices are unavoidable.

however, having said the a/m, does it mean the Cadence equipment is bad!?! unfortunately for me, no. the stuff is brilliant!! esp. the electrostats (i have yet to find a sound that compares to these for the upper mids and highs, and i HAVE tried. my handle on one forum is ES-holic! just love them!!), and now the canasyas. i keep riling virenji to use the electrostats with the amitys for the best of both kinda combo. and, the drive that was lacking in the VA-1 for my room size (for non-solitary listening only tho'), was addressed by the canasyas (tho' the VA-1 was good enuf for solitary listening, which is most of the time anyway). so, depending on your room size, if speaking from a pure quality and music presentation perspective (i.e., excluding interaction with the company, cost, after-sales, etc.), Cadence roxx big time (in my little exposure to hi fi, YMMV).

now, coming to the rethm sadhanas, well, i would, purely IMHO, still say virenji's 'package', if it were just these three brands you are considering.

one aspect with the Cadence electrostats you need to consider and that has become relevant this monsoon, is their susceptibility to humidity. my aristas' panels take time to open up these days from not working at all when turned on. as a matter of fact this happened even during my auditioning them in pune with the dealer, but i discounted it. one other forum member (also in delhi) has the Amayas (still driven by the VA-1), with larger panels, and is just not able to use them. so, tho' i am open to you coming over for a listen, i do not know how much justice these would be able to do to your intent.

i have tried to avoid using any hi fi jargon or speak on the 'musicality' and/or 'fidelity' of the equipment.

in the end, as is oft said here, believe your ears. virenji is also open to a demo in your own listening environment. once you are certain his package does it for you (during your session at his place), do take him up on that, just to make sure. each environment may have a different effect on the rig.

the 'dated' point on the thread evaded me. isn't the music that most of us here hear already atleast 10+ years old!?! none of us may be referring to the current music, IMHO.

also, i had the privilege of meeting steve (stevieboy) and abhi (dr. bass) this time when in b'lore (i also went across to TLR to listen to the einstein with the blumenhofer speakers.) and from the little time i spent with them i (feel i) understand where they (steve and abhi) are coming from with the inputs on this thread.

trust this helped.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

in the end, as is oft said here, believe your ears. virenji is also open to a demo in your own listening environment. once you are certain his package does it for you (during your session at his place), do take him up on that, just to make sure. each environment may have a different effect on the rig.

Heinlein, you will get unique privilege of getting demo of Lyrita product in your own listening environment, which is very important. I don't know the same for Cadence and Rehthm at NCR. Listen and then decide. Single drivers are a different experience than 2-way speaker, specially you may have the feeling of missing some high frequency. I have done the AB in my home with Amity and Usher. Amity was far more open in soundstage (holographic) and tight bass, but Usher was having distinct advantage in its sweet high frequency range. Amity has 12" woofer, which require a moderate to big sized room. In my room it was sounding boomy, which I could manage to good extent by putting rolled towel in the rear port in Viren's presence and advise. But somehow, I felt that in my room size Usher BE-718 is better suited than Amity. So demo in your own listening environment is a very important step.
Cheers

 

[gobble]

??? How are you planning on doing this Gobble? I quite like some of the mono tracks I have on CDs and LPs...

Just merge L+R in to a single channel in the preamp input side.

Cheers

 

[Rajiv]

I've personally experienced the excessive boom produced by single driver-SET combo. The owner of that combo now uses a sound processor to change the situation.

Hi Capt,

The problem with the excessive bass boom was tracked down to the experimental/prototype DAC being used.

The fault is not with the amp and speakers.

The problem with the DAC has also been identified and sorted out.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[Rajiv]

I currently have a 300B amp @ home & am really enjoying it

@Shanti,you should now listen to an amp using the 45 tube.



Rajiv

 

[captrajesh]

The problem with the excessive bass boom was tracked down to the experimental/prototype DAC being used.

The fault is not with the amp and speakers.

Hi Rajiv

Thank u for the clarification. While it may be the reason for the particular case, is not a known fact that tube amps have a low damping factor which reduces control of cone excursion which results in boom?

 

[suri]

Hi Rajiv

Thank u for the clarification. While it may be the reason for the particular case, is not a known fact that tube amps have a low damping factor which reduces control of cone excursion which results in boom?

that truth will never be acknowledged!

 

[iaudio]

Rajiv, i was going to say that the boom in the particular case might have been due to the tube output stage in the source(dac) too. The speakers were sounding fine with the topping in the chain. On the other hand, the same lyrita amp was doing am excellent job with rajivs speakers.

Hi Rajiv

Thank u for the clarification. While it may be the reason for the particular case, is not a known fact that tube amps have a low damping factor which reduces control of cone excursion which results in boom?

 

[G401fan]

My two bits..

I've had Cadence VA 1.O HP and Avitas since 2002, and have found them to be a magical combination. The EL34 midrange magnificence combined with the electrostat speed and transparency have proved to be so seductive that I've never once felt the need for an 'upgrade' . Sure there may be better systems out there, like the Canasya and Arcas, for example, but I couldn't afford them, and hey, the law of diminishing returns kicks in sooner or later.

I've never had any problems with the 'stat panels, notwithstanding Bombay's crippling humidity levels.

Cannot understand the issue of 'older designs' and the need to 'move on'. The original Quad ESL was manufactured from '57 to '85, the ESL-63 from '81 to '98, and variations of the Klipschorns have been available from 1949 to date. A classic design remains a classic.

Cadence have introduced new models from the ES- in '96, to the Diva, Arca in '97, Arita in '99, Avita in 2002 and Arista in 2006. Their stat panel is the thinnest in the world at 3.5 microns. The new stat material is even better with a more even distribution of magnetic surface material.

Single driver speakers have their strengths but you have to put up with bulky size and poor bass response. The Rethm Saadhanas have overcome the bass issues, I know, but they're bulky and costly. We all have to deal with WAF. One can just as well aspire for Alexandria X-2s and YG-Anats.

Audiophilia nervosa is a dangerous thing...

rgds

 

[gobble]

The fostex 166e in a bass-reflex design is reputed for good bass extension and my speakers prove the case. I will never go for a sub-woofer - I dont need one.

That all FR's automatically lack low freq extension is a fallacy. It may not match a 3 way but as far as musicality goes, it does not rob anything to demand even an additional 25 to 50K investment in a woofer.

Just to clear the air.

HTH

 

[GeorgeO]

To each his own..

I can never imagine a FR that can get ALL of the low frequency sound in ALL of the music out there.To me a powered sub is a must-irrespective of whether it costs 25K or 50K

 

[gobble]

To each his own..

I can never imagine a FR that can get ALL of the low frequency sound in ALL of the music out there.To me a powered sub is a must-irrespective of whether it costs 25K or 50K

Well my take is - How much of 40hz sound is actually musical? Anything 60hz and above is sufficient to bring out the musicality even if it is 3db below the midrange. The rest can be classified as "special effects"

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

To each his own..

I can never imagine a FR that can get ALL of the low frequency sound in ALL of the music out there.To me a powered sub is a must-irrespective of whether it costs 25K or 50K

Agree with George

Consider this,

If FR can give adequate output into the bass regions and highs, then all other speaker systems will cease to exist. FR gives the most pristine midrange that one can aspire for.

Something gotta give That is why Omega has matching subwoofers for their speakers. Shaizada can chime in here.

At some point in time, Ill have two systems

 

[arj]

Well my take is - How much of 40hz sound is actually musical? Anything 60hz and above is sufficient to bring out the musicality even if it is 3db below the midrange. The rest can be classified as "special effects"

Cheers

you would be surprised at the amount of Sub 40Hz content in music...even something like the Series of Jana Gana mana produced by AR Rehman and sung by a plethora of indian current "greats"

i was not really a believer of this as per the theory on instrument ranges available on the net but a simple addition of a Behringer just as a Graphic display literally "Shocked" me into reality. even in hindustani classical (Eg Tabla has subharmonics at this low freq !!!

Today I can enjoy music with the Sub Off..but the moment i switch in on ..listen to music and switch it off, it feels as though a very important part of music has disappeared !

what i could figure out is that music is not just about the fundamental tone of 40 Hz you hear but the pitch/timbre/tone actually depends on the harmonics/Subharmonics as well wthout which a lot of music is not really recreated correctly.

 

[prem]

Even i feel subs are very important for a single driver. Earlier I had the Rethm Seconds which had a 8 inch Lowther but the Rethm Saadhanas i have today with the bass modules sound much better.

 

[stevieboy]

I'd agree with Gobble. Though I guess like Arj said, a sub would add musical content, the crossover involved would take away from the purity of a single driver for me. Very personal choice to use a sub or not, which is why a few manufacturers offer a sub along with a single driver.

However if I did use a sub I'd use two, cos I remember reading once from the guy who used to deal in Avante Garde US and set up systems that using one sub would combine the left and right and you'd lose ambient detail that contained spatial cues in the left and right channel, (something to that effect). It was in a downloadable PDF on tips on audio from the Avante Garde US website.

 

[arj]

... set up systems that using one sub would combine the left and right and you'd lose ambient detail that contained spatial cues in the left and right channel, (something to that effect). .

Hi Stevieboy, what you say is very true.thats why ideally 2 subs are recommended. but since spatial cues are a combination of the main tone + harmonics/ subharmonics, the spatial cues can be contributed to significanly by the mains as long as they cover 50 Hz.