Cadence vs Lyrita vs Rethm

[suri]

@stevieboy
"In general and this is my sole opinion, people who tend to like single drivers and SET amps are more focused on the musical side of the music."

Musical side of music?What exactly does that mean?Does music have a non-musical side also?
I notice that when discussions get heated on the forum we sometimes get lost in hyperbole.I'm sure if we threw a sentence like 'musical side of music' at a professional musician or composer he would not know how to respond.
For me,it's finally not about tube or solid state.Single driver or multiple drivers.All HIFI is simply a means to an end.
And the end will always be the music we listen to.
Personally I would be more impressed with a guy listening to Beethoven on his cell phone, than a guy listening to Pink Floyd or Dire Straits on some la-di-da valve amp and esoteric speakers which cost a million bucks.

but, really, ajay124,

for some (audiophiles) - it is NOT the music - or the romance - or the meaning - or interpretation of the angst of the creative composer -

for them - it is how the electrical and mechanical components come together and (try to) exactly reproduce the original (audio) event -

for them the romance is not an abstract thought - the romance lies in extracting the last bit of detail from man-made equipment.

so - you appreciate the choice (or taste) of music in a person - and perhaps this person will close his eyes and be enveloped in the (audible) creation of the composer-

but - i would still suggest-

that all music (and accompanying subtle nuances) be listened to on a (very) high end system - WHICH LEAVES NOTHING TO THE LISTENER'S IMAGINATION.

regds suri

 

[Dr.Bass]

I will only comment on what I have heard & that too only the +ve things....

a] Cadence

Used to make good speakers - however, they need to move... All their products are 'dated' More than 1 decade old....

The fact that they have not come out with anything more improved doesnt take away anything from what they have already achieved IMO. Electrostats is more than 50 years old technology. I dont think Cadence has innovated a lot with Electrostats as technology. They have only implemented them in a certain format. Has any other brand currently present in India managed to challenge them in that arena ? I suppose not. The signature sound of electrostat is unique and so is Cadence's sound.

Tell me something, if Cadence would have come into existence in 2010 with the same set of speakers, would you still have described them outdated ?

 

[prem]

Hi Dr Bass

I have had the Cadences. The bass is definitely lagging. It does not integrate well with the electrostat panel. It was the same problem with the earlier Martin Logan models but the newer Logan models sound far more integrated. Cadence should have addressed this problem.

 

[arj]

...and for the price their quality sucks ! not so great wood finish where even the veneer / wood do not match across the same pair of speakers

 

[stevieboy]

If I say, the opening of Beethoven 5th Symphony by Carlos Kleiber, the array of violins sounded like it should, magnificiently large, somewhat scary and very dynamic on the Amaya. What does it really convey ? Does it say anything about the tones of the speaker ? Does it say anything about the fact that the bass actually has a timing mismatch with electrostatic panel ? Or does it convey anything about the way an Amaya sounds different from a Dynaudio per se ?

There was an interesting conversation I had with an audiophile who owns a Harbeth. When I asked him how does an Harbeth sounds like, he used such wordings like "Mahler sounds like it should, big and dynamic, Diana Krall sounds like she should velvety and airy, Floyd's guitar sounds like it should electronic and lively". In the end, my take away was almost nil, because there are many speakers which do what this audiophile is describing, how is the Harbeth different ? I could only conclude that without an audition I have no idea what a Harbeth sounds like. I finally did audition the Harbeths at Spore and you can ask me how it sounds. It is not as difficult to describe its signature sound.

Well, all I can say that, at least on this forum, I have read way too many posts where single driver speakers are pitched against multidriver speakers in a bid to establish some kind of supremacy. A typical illustration is as below:

If Viren can actually improve treble and bass in one of his existing speakers, will he not do it ? I am sure you would applaud him for an effort like that ? What made you think that Viren's efforts are in the 'musical' direction while someone else's efforts are not ?

Dr Bass,

Regarding your pal who owns a Harbeth, this is precisely the difference I was talking about, describing music in musical terms versus audiophile terms like timing mismatch. For you there's a timing mismatch, for me the speaker does not sound musical. Two different ways of describing the same thing, this is the essence of the difference I'm trying to illustrate.

Regarding the second part of your post, well it's certainly not about superiority, it was intended more about the approach. For example let's take Dynaudio, their tagline is 'Danes don't lie'. Now from this I get that their intent above all is, is to make speakers that are 'true' to the recordings, no matter what the recording is. Or without arguing about the exact words, at least something in that nature correct? That's manufacturer intent, so when I said Viren's intent is musicality, I meant it that way. It should also be evident from his various posts that for him a reference in voicing his products is live shows. His and the Dynaudio intent are two different intents would you not agree? And each will bring with it it's own set of positives and negatives. Similarly for each manufacturer. Let's not get into superiority/inferiority, that's simply not what I meant at all.

regards

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hi Dr Bass

I have had the Cadences. The bass is definitely lagging. It does not integrate well with the electrostat panel. It was the same problem with the earlier Martin Logan models but the newer Logan models sound far more integrated. Cadence should have addressed this problem.

Agreed they have issues, I have already highlighted these issues in my initial post. But what is it that makes them outdated ? If they are outdated today, I would say they were outdated even in the 90's (when they were launched), since the electrostat technology is many decades old anyway. Non-integration of bass driver was not an acceptable phenomenon even in the 90s.

I would consider something outdated only if the technology or its implementation has moved on leaving the older technology redundant. Something that happens to DAC.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Dr Bass,

Regarding your pal who owns a Harbeth, this is precisely the difference I was talking about, describing music in musical terms versus audiophile terms like timing mismatch. For you there's a timing mismatch, for me the speaker does not sound musical. Two different ways of describing the same thing, this is the essence of the difference I'm trying to illustrate.

But for me, Cadence sounds very "musical". Many a times I have found myself forgetting the system and getting transported. How did that happen ?? Do you know ? None of us know. That timing mismatch did not bother me enough to get disconnected. Why ? After all everyone's reference is real instrument and real performers. But you could not connect while I could with a certain speaker. I get disconnected when I find some instruments almost missing in a performance. I find the performance incomplete. What does that imply ? At the cost of sounding repetitive I would suggest the same thing again. Please do not try to evaluate how music is interpreted once it reaches someone's ears. You cannot, neither can I, no one can.

Regarding the second part of your post, well it's certainly not about superiority, it was intended more about the approach. For example let's take Dynaudio, their tagline is 'Danes don't lie'. Now from this I get that their intent above all is, is to make speakers that are 'true' to the recordings, no matter what the recording is. Or without arguing about the exact words, at least something in that nature correct? That's manufacturer intent, so when I said Viren's intent is musicality, I meant it that way. It should also be evident from his various posts that for him a reference in voicing his products is live shows. His and the Dynaudio intent are two different intents would you not agree? And each will bring with it it's own set of positives and negatives. Similarly for each manufacturer. Let's not get into superiority/inferiority, that's simply not what I meant at all.

regards

I did not get this. If Dynaudio brings out everything honestly from the recording why do you think it is not "musical" ? As long as you are playing a music Cd which has some music that is enjoyble, even Dyns would sound musical right ?. Or does Viren's speakers add something to the recording to make it sound more musical ?

For some it could be gut wrenching bass that just has to be present, for some its a silky extended treble that just has to be there.

Do you think silky extended treble and musicality are mutually exclusive attributes ?

 

[arj]

..That's manufacturer intent, so when I said Viren's intent is musicality, I meant it that way. It should also be evident from his various posts that for him a reference in voicing his products is live shows. His and the Dynaudio intent are two different intents would you not agree?..

as far as i have seen, read and heard, every (Almost) audio component is built on the base of musicality..it is what they intent to achieve over and above it is what makes it different. and yes they will be different as No matter what you make there are going to be compromises...and each component does have them and may choose different compromise as no component is perfect (Niether Virens nor Dynaudio from the above)

It how much you are willing to like your sound and turn a blind eye to the compromises which makes the difference for the owner. for many once a "Compromise" gets highlighted, solving it is very important, others may just turn a practical sigh and live with it knowing it and there are others who convince themselves that it is not a compromise... hyeah:

it is obvious that either one of three will not understand what the other is saying and obviously there is no "Right way" as long as one knows which category he /she is falling.

...And this is not just about audio

 

[panditji]

Interesting thread guys....In my opinion any music recorded is meant to be musical....now I find heavy metal "noise" but to death metal fans, it is music(al) ....I do not know how audio equipment makes music more musical!!!! It may make a recording sound nice but any music recorded is meant to be musical by the person playing it..which is why someone recorded it in the first place.....
If music is not musical then please suggest a different word to describe it....saying that equipment makes it musical is silly IMHO...it can make it sound nicer or harsh or not so nice or horrible but not more or less musical.....

Again what may be be musical to some may be noise for others.....so each to his own ...and we come back to square one ....

 

[Dr.Bass]

as far as i have seen, read and heard, every (Almost) audio component is built on the base of musicality..it is what they intent to achieve over and above it is what makes it different. and yes they will be different as No matter what you make there are going to be compromises...and each component does have them and may choose different compromise as no component is perfect (Niether Virens nor Dynaudio from the above)

It how much you are willing to like your sound and turn a blind eye to the compromises which makes the difference for the owner. for many once a "Compromise" gets highlighted, solving it is very important, others may just turn a practical sigh and live with it knowing it and there are others who convince themselves that it is not a compromise... hyeah:

it is obvious that either one of three will not understand what the other is saying and obviously there is no "Right way" as long as one knows which category he /she is falling.

...And this is not just about audio

Exactly !!
Which compromise affects musicality more is something so grey and so individual specific!!

 

[ajay124]

but, really, ajay124,

1.for some (audiophiles) - it is NOT the music - or the romance - or the meaning - or interpretation of the angst of the creative composer -

2.for them - it is how the electrical and mechanical components come together and (try to) exactly reproduce the original (audio) event -

3.for them the romance is not an abstract thought - the romance lies in extracting the last bit of detail from man-made equipment.

4.so - you appreciate the choice (or taste) of music in a person - and perhaps this person will close his eyes and be enveloped in the (audible) creation of the composer-

but - i would still suggest-

5.that all music (and accompanying subtle nuances) be listened to on a (very) high end system - WHICH LEAVES NOTHING TO THE LISTENER'S IMAGINATION.

regds suri

Hi Suri!
Welcome back!I was missing your posts.
The first three points you have made(I've numbered them) perfectly describe a person who has less interest in music and is more interested in his equipment.An audio-minus-music-phile!
Point 5 'which leaves nothing to the listener's imagination'.I believe imagination is enriched and refined by the art (music,books,cinema,paintings etc.) you experience over your lifetime.There is no machine, no matter how expensive,which can provide a substitute for the learning process that your imagination has to undergo. Pleasure in music increases by listening to more and better music.It does increase by buying better equipment but only to a small extent.An audio-minus-music-phile,constantly obsessed with extracting better sound from his equipment,would perpetually be on the auditioning,upgrading and tweaking path.I was in that minefield for the better part of this year and frankly was not enjoying my music.Now that the upgrade fever has passed and I have a set up that I love,and can live with,for quite some time,I am enjoying my music again.
Incidentally,it would be great if somebody enterprising could arrange a 'Tube-Fest',a hifi event dedicated to tube gear!It would be wonderful if we could audition Lyrita,Cadence,Rethm,Ayon,Unison Research,Pathos,Jadis....all at one venue!And meet all the forum members,most of us know,only by their posts.Wont mind travelling to any corner of India for that.And maybe we can really debate who is the fairest one of all,after actually hearing all the gear.

 

[bhagwan]

Lots of persons drive cars [i-pod users]
Some of us love cars & like to drive [audiophiles]
Most amongst us drive Maruti / Hyundai / Ford / Chevrolet & some may have Skoda's
There are people that drive Porsch 911's / Subaru Impreza / Nissan GTR / Mercedes SL 500 / BMW M3 / M5 etc. They too may like to drive & may be good drivers.....[just an option to consider]
Just because we 'mortals' drive Maruti's & the like automobiles & generally enjoy driving, does not mean that every esoteric car owner is not a car enthusiast & does not derive pleasure from driving his car ??
Just a point to ponder over.....

Incidentally,it would be great if somebody enterprising could arrange a 'Tube-Fest',a hifi event dedicated to tube gear!It would be wonderful if we could audition Lyrita,Cadence,Rethm,Ayon,Unison Research,Pathos,Jadis....all at one venue!And meet all the forum members,most of us know,only by their posts.

This may not be 'commercially' viable....

Cadence is in Pune.
Lyrita is in ND
UN is in Pune too.
Jadis is in Mumbai.
Rethm is in Coshin.
Ayon is in Bangalore.

All do not have a 'common dealer'
Therefore 'auditions' will have to take place with the respective dealers / manufacturers place only....
Unfortunate, but that seems to be the only option.....

 

[bhagwan]

What we could try and get ideas / suggestions about seems to be :-

a] Lyrita Speaker & Rethm Speaker [both seem to use FR driver] some points being common.

b] Lyrita Amp & Cadence Amp [both being tubed]

The commonality being that all are made in India.

We could also get Corson Amps into this - they too make Tubed Amplifiers [845]..

Audire too can be discussed here - although I have never 'heard' their speakers....

Cadence Speakers do not have any one else that makes a 'hybrid' so not much in common with other products....

Forum members that have heard & tested any of the above combinations may comment....
Will help our friend from Gurgaon to decide....

Regards,

shanti

 

[GeorgeO]

After all this debate, what is the conclusion? Is it that an audition will help in the final decision?

 

[viren bakhshi]

I think the conclusion is that "heinlein" should use his own ears to decide what he likes best!

Heinlein, since you are close by in Gurgaon, just hop across for a listen. I can set up whatever combination of Lyrita gear you prefer. No obligation, just come to listen.

Regards,
Viren

 

[bhagwan]

I think the conclusion is that "heinlein" should use his own ears to decide what he likes best!

Heinlein, since you are close by in Gurgaon, just hop across for a listen. I can set up whatever combination of Lyrita gear you prefer. No obligation, just come to listen.

Regards,
Viren

You must [Heinlein] take this offer up;
It is a chance for you to experience Lyrita 'first hand'

I do not know what options exist for you on the Cadence & Rythm front, but this could be a 'start'

All the Best !

 

[stevieboy]

After all this debate, what is the conclusion? Is it that an audition will help in the final decision?

Well before we got into debates on other stuff yeah hehe It is the only thing that he should do to see what suits his ears and I think he was going to do it as per one of his posts

 

[viren bakhshi]

I am going to stir up things a bit more, since it makes for interesting reading, and also for some serious rethinking.

These are quotes from people who have been in the audio world for a long time; as do-it-yourselfers, designers, reviewers. Do give their comments some thought.

Janos:
"You nailed it down: the "high end sound", the trademark sound of the decade is the sound that wants to (and does) impress, yet it is impersonal, without integrity, balance, and soul. Shows how impressive machine and technology is. It favors the presentation of those players, who are virtuoso with their instruments, and can play with exceptional speed, dynamics, or volume. The play of these performers will really shine on such systems. However, from such preformances you rarely get even a glimpse of what the music has to tell you. You cannot connect to the music itself, only with the virtuosity, the ability of the player, and get the same adrenaline rush that he or she feels."

Michael Lavorgna:
"The more we attempt to dissect the listening experience and zoom in on a particular
component's performance, the farther we move from the enjoyment of the recorded performance and musicality. At times, we seem to get so caught up in the minutiae of hifi mechanics (as distinctly opposed to musical nuance), we lose sight of the music. We start listening to the hifi, not the music. We start to praise the things hifis do that don't mean a thing to music. The tail wags the god while the cat's away. Thus begins the hifi sickness (and the need for 500 reviews per month).

But if we focus back on the music, I think we'll find music is much less fussy. It's much more generous and forgiving. It can speak to us through our car's stereo, our iPod, from down the street, in a crowed bar, on an airplane, a bus or a phone. Nearly anywhere. The only place I've found the power of music to be somewhat tamed and caged in is at hifi shows."

Renaud de Vergnette:
As a kid, my friends and I were listening to old full-range combo units and the reproduction was very faithful. Admittedly, there wasn't much bass nor treble. But the balance was so well done that the essence was there. And it was so homogeneous. Compared to today's standards, some highly regarded products still have me waiting for the music to arrive even if technically, everything is perfect. It's the same difference between a raw milk Camembert and a pasteurized Camembert."

Lynn Olson:
"Most high-end systems, especially what you hear at shows, can really only be used with audiophile-grade recordings, or they'll drive you out of the room with the harsh and shrill sound. This isn't "accuracy", by the wayit's a type of electronic distortion that emphasizes and makes more intolerable any defects in the original recording. Systems that are honest enough to let the original sound come throughwithout wisecracking and editorializing about itare not common."

Regards,
Viren

 

[stevieboy]

I went to the Rethm website and they seem to have two models. Anybody knows what price range we are talking about?

Hi Heinlein,

As far as I remember Rethm used to have the prices in USD on their site some years back, average around 3 lakhs + starting roughly. You could PM Prem here, he'd have a better idea of current prices, he has Rethm speakers including their amp. He'd be able to give you a fairer picture on the sound of Rethm vis a vis other brands, having owned many prior sets ups.

Regards

 

[stevieboy]

I do not know what options exist for you on the Cadence & Rythm front, but this could be a 'start'

All the Best !

Hifiashok on the forum has Cadence gear, a PM would be good to see whether he'd be free to host you or not Heinlein, Rethm I have no idea...