CAT 7 - Ethernet Cable - Revelation Audio Labs - USA -

[arj]

... Arj commented on earlier which is not of consequence in the CAT cable connection?

Staxxx, i had tried to keep out from discussing Cables and their differences and tried to focus on if there is a scientific reasoning as to why it is different.
I guess its very easy for most of us to give a scientific reason as to Why it should NOT be different . despite me being layman even i seem to be able to do it to myself !

I guess since we are right where we started at the beginning of this thread, maybe this can be closed ?

anyway i dont think we will hear more from Bhagwan on this since he seems to have got his result..and has left a playground for all of us to play this game with no end :sad:

 

[bhagwan]

anyway i dont think we will hear more from Bhagwan on this since he seems to have got his result..and he has left a playground for all of us to play this game with no end :sad:

I am still around;
However, I am not posting / commenting - simple reason being all persons that have voted / commented on this thread have done so with the knowledge & understanding that they possess.
However, since my exposure on those fronts is rather limited, my opinions & test results are not 'suited' [rather acceptable] to most [90 % have stated NO in their poll answer] & hence, the Mods may close this thread - I am 100 % OK with it.

My Test is not finished - I have 3 more people left to visit & I will keep my work going on - simply because I can 'hear' the difference - although 'technically' there should be none.

I just hope - not for my sake - that each and every 'NO' [voter] gets a chance to listen & then decided for himself what the change is & why it is there....

I have not come to this forum to push my point of view on any person,
no - that is not my intent;
I have come here to share & to learn.

How I wished, that the CAT Cables did not make any difference - I would have been so happy to have agreed with most [all] of you - but I DO HEAR a different sound from all the Cables & I cannot lie to myself;

I am sorry if I have caused any hurt / harm to any parson - I did not intend any.

All the Best to All - Stay well & prosper - enjoy music & spread the sound - just focus on the improvement of the fidelity - no mp3 - please;;;

 

[mowgli80]

Jitter may be in pico seconds causing mild aberrations in D/A converstion, but problem is, jitter is amplified.

Agred, but how does jitter amplification affect sound. Are the timing issues amplified or the frequency of the sound changes or for that matter, what changes? Links to scientific studies would be preferable. This dormant doubt has woken up after looking at the audio myths video.

 

[arj]

I am sorry if I have caused any hurt / harm to any parson - I did not intend any.

you take things too seriously :cheers:

 

[arj]

Agred, but how does jitter amplification affect sound. Are the timing issues amplified or the frequency of the sound changes or for that matter, what changes? Links to scientific studies would be preferable. This dormant doubt has woken up after looking at the audio myths video.

Or you could come over to my place with 2-3 digital cables, when in bangalore and we could listen.. I might end up learning something new

 

[Staxxx]

Bhagwan, I want to commend you for taking all the comments in the right spirit. I like the idea of eventually listening and coming to a conclusion, mainly because I am not exposed to all scientific thought and therefore cannot base my judgement solely on my own exposure. I know this way I learn (or experience) a lot and the surprise sometimes is quite delightful - for example when I tried different S/PDIF cables and heard not so subtle differences in the presentation of the same music. I did not expect it as I did not know enough about digital transmission and I still don't.....
I hope one day I can try an experiment with a shorter run of CAT cable between my preamp and power amp however I don't know of anyone here who can make me a cable to the highest specifications that I would like to have, both for the soldering and quality of the connectors and the purity/specs of the cable itself. I would mainly like it so that I can manage my cables better (without detriment to the sound) instead of looking for some improvement in the SQ itself.

 

[mowgli80]

Thanks for the invitation ... If am ever in Bangalore, will try to come to your place to hear music with you, but not to analyse it, as just hearing is far more enjoyable . My intention now is to know the implications of jitter in digital audio, for my better understanding, and not if we able to hear it (I don't want to start another fire ). There are just couple of cases, clock is either slower or faster than an ideal clock, so shouldn't be very complex.

 

[arj]

Thanks for the invitation ... If am ever in Bangalore, will try to come to your place to hear music with you, but not to analyse it, as just hearing is far more enjoyable . My intention now is to know the implications of jitter in digital audio, for my better understanding, and not if we able to hear it (I don't want to start another fire ). There are just couple of cases, clock is either slower or faster than an ideal clock, so shouldn't be very complex.

this should tell you about SPDIF

this is a decent read on Jitter

i had one more article bookmarked but the site is Dead..wish i have converted in pdf

Overall how does jitter sound ?- Unpredictable..it can also sound good ! just that it is a deviation from the source. and that too happens in the time domain ie the size of the data file you capture will not be any different in the end BUT as you listen to it you will feel a difference.

it is when there are more details apparent between two cables that you know that one of the cables is doing somethjing right (again more perceived details are not necessarily good..like edge detection in artificial vision, it could be an unnecessary enhancement)

and from all the cables i have tried, unless you measure the jitter at the DAC end OR you know how the track plays with a jitterless source in your own system, you will not know it is jitter.

There could be cables which sound good but measure bad because of Jitter..and it is distortion..just that it sounds good

But if you look at the Transport-Dac-Preamp-Amp-Speaker chain all linked with cables and all giving their own colourations, can you truly make a "neutral " System ?
No Again

thats why you like to hear a combination and work with one which works best to your ears...knowing that it is not a true neutral but something which you like

(I hope the above does not give my stand away )

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

"On person's serious contribution is another person's waste of time" but...

Bhagwan, if you are serious about this endeavour, then get together with your PC guy, or someone else who can help you set it up, and go the AudioDiffMaker route. Ears is the whole point of what we do, but surely an experiment should not exclude science.

If you do that, I'll put my networking book back on the dinner table as I await the result

And do please, call them network flyleads, or just flyleads, or CAT5, CAT6, CAT7, CATn: there is no such thing as a "CAT cable"

 

[arj]

Bhagwan, I want to commend you for taking all the comments in the right spirit. I like the idea of eventually listening and coming to a conclusion, mainly because I am not exposed to all scientific thought and therefore cannot base my judgement solely on my own exposure. I know this way I learn (or experience) a lot and the surprise sometimes is quite delightful - for example when I tried different S/PDIF cables and heard not so subtle differences in the presentation of the same music. I did not expect it as I did not know enough about digital transmission and I still don't.....
.

totally with you.
If anyone claims a system is dead neutral ? it can only be done by measurements..and it has to be done scientifically
If one to have a great sounding system ..with all the conjurations and artefacts which could go with it, . it makes no sense to try to use science..it is more like an art form which cannot be measured

of course these are the two extremes and we all live at some point between these..

 

[Jazzhead]

Interesting comment Abhijitnath. Sorry this is slightly OT: I settled on the Jorma cable eventually, which was not the most expensive cable, but the one I FELT was most neutral, revealing and pleasant to my ears in the final choice between it and the Stealth Varidig Sextet and Esoteric. I am not sure how these cables might vary in specifications (as I am not an engineer) but they certainly did in composition, design, sheathing etc. The Jorma was by far the thinnest and simplest looking of the lot.
This selection was done after auditioning in my system for an appropriate amount of time.
Strangely - as some other FMs have also found in previous posts - the S/PDIF cable has been the one cable that has made more of a profound effect on my sound that I could discern, which is in an appropriately revealing system. I think this may be mainly because of the time domain issues as Arj commented on earlier which is not of consequence in the CAT cable connection?

Staxxx.... Glad to have found a fellow Marten user , in our neck of the woods . Interested to know where you procured the said Digi cables for an in-house audition . No dealers carrying them that I am aware off , or were they from your audio buddies . The Sextet is highly regarded, surprised that the Jorma bested it , a case of system synergy most likely . Apologies for being OT , thanks in advance for the feedback .

 

[jls001]

(I hope the above does not give my stand away )

No, it doesn't

Hats off to bhagwan :yahoo: for possessing infinite patience, and never losing his head even when many of us boldly concluded - some facetiously, some in the garb of science and technology - that it was a pointless exercise, even before the conduct of the tests.

Now we can continue the discussion - blaming the methodology, the unreliability of human hearing, the number of crows crowing outside his window on a particular day, how it wasn't a blind test, how it wasn't a double blind test, how ephemeral audio memory really is, how we can't rely on a bunch of bhagwan's friends, or we could also attempt further pseudo-scientific explanations on why there shouldn't be a difference, etc.

 

[Staxxx]

(I hope the above does not give my stand away )

Definitely my stand too ....

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Now we can continue the discussion - blaming the methodology, the unreliability of human hearing, the number of crows crowing outside his window on a particular day, how it wasn't a blind test, how it wasn't a double blind test, how ephemeral audio memory really is, how we can't rely on a bunch of bhagwan's friends, or we could also attempt further pseudo-scientific explanations on why there shouldn't be a difference, etc.

Or, on the other hand, we can just continue the discussion, including all valid and possibly valid points.

 

[jls001]

Or, on the other hand, we can just continue the discussion, including all valid and possibly valid points.

I believe we have learned much from this experiment. We must therefore continue, but with an open mind, and not by concluding in haste like....

In the world of audio, some of the strangest things might turn out true, but in the world of networking there is only a well-defined and well-understood technology.

or conclusive, all-knowing statements like:

No, a cable is just a cable in the computer world, and yes, it is backed by engineering and nothing but engineering and it is defined according to purpose and works according to spec. There are only two kinds of networking cables within a given category: those that work flawlessly and those that have some fault and get binned.

or ridicule what others are doing....

So do an experiment: burn and grind different ethernet cables into a powder and rub it into your scalp to see if it cures baldness ---

etc.

All I am asking is that we allow some room to maneuver should our knowledge or assumptions turn out to be limited, and give room for other opinions, and other voices.

 

[captrajesh]

I just hope - not for my sake - that each and every 'NO' [voter] gets a chance to listen & then decided for himself what the change is & why it is there.

Absolutely. That is the sole reason why I haven't voted yet.

 

[mowgli80]

Now we can continue the discussion - blaming the methodology, the unreliability of human hearing, the number of crows crowing outside his window on a particular day, how it wasn't a blind test, how it wasn't a double blind test, how ephemeral audio memory really is, how we can't rely on a bunch of bhagwan's friends, or we could also attempt further pseudo-scientific explanations on why there shouldn't be a difference, etc.

Bhagwan did ask for an explanation as to why he was hearing a difference .

I believe we have learned much from this experiment. We must therefore continue, but with an open mind, and not by concluding in haste like....

Or we can have an open mind that people like Thad who have earned their bread and butter from the field of networking might just know more about it than audiophiles . For music's sake, he also keeps a networking book with him and is quite anxious to eat it .

I have interacted with Bhagwan while puchasing his subwoofer and can vouch for him as a person. In fact, he is one of the more accomodating person that I have come across. However, in this scenario, he is yet another human and is unreliable as a sensor.

 

[mowgli80]

this should tell you about SPDIF

this is a decent read on Jitter

i had one more article bookmarked but the site is Dead..wish i have converted in pdf

Overall how does jitter sound ?- Unpredictable..it can also sound good ! just that it is a deviation from the source. and that too happens in the time domain ie the size of the data file you capture will not be any different in the end BUT as you listen to it you will feel a difference.

it is when there are more details apparent between two cables that you know that one of the cables is doing somethjing right (again more perceived details are not necessarily good..like edge detection in artificial vision, it could be an unnecessary enhancement)

and from all the cables i have tried, unless you measure the jitter at the DAC end OR you know how the track plays with a jitterless source in your own system, you will not know it is jitter.

There could be cables which sound good but measure bad because of Jitter..and it is distortion..just that it sounds good

But if you look at the Transport-Dac-Preamp-Amp-Speaker chain all linked with cables and all giving their own colourations, can you truly make a "neutral " System ?
No Again

thats why you like to hear a combination and work with one which works best to your ears...knowing that it is not a true neutral but something which you like

(I hope the above does not give my stand away )

Thanks for the links, I will definitely give it a read. I doubt jitter less digital audio is ever possible because of limitations imposed by physics. I would have imagined far more research on effects of jitter by companies selling digital audio components as it is one of the primary reasons why digital audio not getting greater audiophile acceptance.

 

[Santy]

Absolutely. That is the sole reason why I haven't voted yet.

Captain, you make me feel guilty for voting.

Question was
Do you Think CAT Cables between 2 Computers has an affect on the Sound Quality ?

Not

Are you sure CAT Cables between 2 Computers has an affect on the Sound Quality ?

hyeah:

 

[arj]

Thanks for the links, I will definitely give it a read. I doubt jitter less digital audio is ever possible because of limitations imposed by physics. I would have imagined far more research on effects of jitter by companies selling digital audio components as it is one of the primary reasons why digital audio not getting greater audiophile acceptance.

there has been a lot of research on it including creating separate Jitter Boxes (mostly PLL devices with improved clocks)
Primary cause of Jitter is due to Clock quality, Line ie cable Or due to the interface (ie conversion to /fr SPDIF)

Most good products do have a jitter spec (which again do not necessary mean they sound good if they measure good)


google is your friend...

http://www.nanophon.com/audio/jitter92.pdf is a good doc