CAT 7 - Ethernet Cable - Revelation Audio Labs - USA -

[jls001]

Or we can have an open mind that people like Thad who have earned their bread and butter from the field of networking might just know more about it than audiophiles . For music's sake, he also keeps a networking book with him and is quite anxious to eat it .

I surely respect him for his vast experience. I do not contradict him for the veracity of his technical knowledge. I only questioned his (or any one else') making conclusions even before the experiment was conducted, and soundly berating the OP for doing something not too clever :lol:

I have interacted with Bhagwan while puchasing his subwoofer and can vouch for him as a person. In fact, he is one of the more accomodating person that I have come across. However, in this scenario, he is yet another human and is unreliable as a sensor.

He has aditionally shown himself to be a thorough gentleman by never losing his cool throughout this thread

 

[jls001]

However, in this scenario, he is yet another human and is unreliable as a sensor.

If human beings are not reliable enough to decide on the merits of man-made cables, how do you suggest we should do it?

 

[Santy]

If human beings are not reliable enough to decide on the merits of man-made cables, how do you suggest we should do it?

In other words, if human beings (with sharp ears) cannot hear a difference, why do we even need sensors? I mean does it really matter if a sensor can find a difference or not, if humans can't.

 

[arj]

He has aditionally shown himself to be a thorough gentleman by never losing his cool throughout this thread

amen to that..that is despite his experience/hearing being called to question :clapping:

 

[mowgli80]

If human beings are not reliable enough to decide on the merits of man-made cables, how do you suggest we should do it?

I have already suggested some additional tests which might help convince him. A negative test where making the listeners think the cable has changed while not changing them for reasonable number of times and confirming the listeners are able to sense the cable has not changed.

amen to that..that is despite his experience/hearing being called to question :clapping:

Just to clarify, I did not question his intent or his integrity. I think I had put the "PS" there which lot of people missed reading. Please don't bring emotions into the picture. The statement was put to counter Captain's claims of there being unknown parameters and the intent of the statement was this - having studied about and seeing ethernet in use in my everyday life, I know how credilble and accurate it is. If it still is an unknown parameter, according to captain, as I do not have access to the experimental setup, how can Bhagwan's hearing, whose credibility (of his hearing and not of Bhagwan) is unknown, can be taken upon his word by other FMs who just know him in this forum to disprove my claims. I think thats a very logical call and I still hold on to what I said. Since you are not "questioning Bhagwan's hearing", may I know whats the basis of your confidence in him?

Science always works on reliable proofs and doubting another man's work is healthy practice and is encouraged. If not, we would still be living in a flat world where lightning and thunder would be attriubted to god's vengeance. Its as simple as this, if a person who doesn't know how to add comes and tells me 2+2=5 because his expensive calculator says so, I would not still believe him, because of what I know. I would still speculate that he may have pressed the wrong button in the calculator and explain probable causes of error. That does not mean I don't respect him or have a hidden agenda against him.

 

[Santy]

If it still is an unknown parameter, according to captain, as I do not have access to the experimental setup, how can Bhagwan's hearing, whose credibility (of his hearing and not of Bhagwan) is unknown, can be taken upon his word by other FMs who just know him in this forum to disprove my claims. I think thats a very logical call and I still hold on to what I said. Since you are not "questioning Bhagwan's hearing", may I know whats the basis of your confidence in him?

I am not supporting or disproving any claims here but Sir, I guess you are making lot of generalisations and assumptions. Many of FMs here know 'Bhagwan' outside this forum too, have met him and spent lot of time with hifi music as the core agenda. Just because you (may) have not met anyone in this forum personally how can you assume its the case with everyone? I myself have shook hands with atleast 100 members of this forum again in hifi environment.

Now, will you buy a 5,000 USD cable if you don't hear a difference it makes? He does. And that is just one reason many trust his hearing abilities. 'Basis of confidence' is that he has listened to some of the finest hifi systems in the whole of the World and Hifi audio consulting is his business. Well, I am neither taking sides nor am approving anything of CAT cable business here, but just voicing my opinion that credibility cannot be or need not be always justified or quantified.

 

[jls001]

I have already suggested some additional tests which might help convince him. A negative test where making the listeners think the cable has changed while not changing them for reasonable number of times and confirming the listeners are able to sense the cable has not changed.

Last time I checked, his listeners were human beings. And should therefore remain fallible, and not reliable, by your metrics.

Since you are not "questioning Bhagwan's hearing", may I know whats the basis of your confidence in him?

I know that wasn't directed at me. But I will attempt an answer - look at this list. That's his past and present equipment (probably not updated to the latest). He's a certifiable audio nutcase. A lovable nutcase. It takes lots of hunger to progress to ever better sounding audio system. And that can't be achieved solely by throwing lots of money and energy into the latest and greatest components. One needs a keen ear. And I can tell you he has a set of very keen ears, honed by the many systems he's owned in his house, or heard at numerous shows that he loves to visit every year or two, or he has helped to set up.

 

[arj]

..
Just to clarify, I did not question his intent or his integrity.

mowgli80. i was not targeting you..in fact I did not even remember reading your comment until your post above. Chill
its a comment aimed at all responses ignoring the fact that there was a difference heard..and everyone saying since "science says there is not difference it has not been heard" i find it rather amusing..thats all

And understandably so, no guesses on whom i would give more credibility to when the comparison is between folks i have known/interacted and got advise from over many years over faceless/nameless handles

BTW My knowledge of networking is not too bad either across TCP/IP, Appletalk (dead) and netbios (mostly dead) over quite a few years and i really have no answer to this scientifically.. but then i thought i was even better at power transmission and still cannot explain why powercords make a difference !

i guess this thread is degenerating now..

 

[captrajesh]

Captain, you make me feel guilty for voting.

Question was
Do you Think CAT Cables between 2 Computers has an affect on the Sound Quality ?

Not

Are you sure CAT Cables between 2 Computers has an affect on the Sound Quality ?

hyeah:

And the answers are:

Yes, the CAT Cables will make a change in Sound
No, the CAT Cable will have no effect on the Sound

Since I've not heard them, which one do you think I should tick?

If human beings are not reliable enough to decide on the merits of man-made cables, how do you suggest we should do it?

By sensors and measurements.:lol:

The statement was put to counter Captain's claims of there being unknown parameters and the intent of the statement was this - having studied about and seeing ethernet in use in my everyday life, I know how credilble and accurate it is. If it still is an unknown parameter, according to captain, as I do not have access to the experimental setup, how can Bhagwan's hearing, whose credibility (of his hearing and not of Bhagwan) is unknown, can be taken upon his word by other FMs who just know him in this forum to disprove my claims.

With due regards, I think you've got my statement wrong; my apologies if I misguided you. I never claimed that there are some unknown parameters. How am I supposed to know that? All I wanted to say is there COULD BE unknown parameters and let us not draw conclusions on known parameters and that too even without listening oneself the set up.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I believe we have learned much from this experiment.

Hardly an experiment. A test. an audition, maybe. Experiments require a little more. learned much? How much? We have one more anecdote on the subject. It might be true, it might not. It might be understood, it might not. Of course, I do not doubt its sincerity, but as an experiment it doesn't rate

We must therefore continue, but with an open mind,

Or we should continue with well-chosen ignorance? Choosing to rate well-know technology as "Science," using the word as a slur to indicate some sort of debatable philosophy. Oh, Please. Oh yes! Let decades go by the board because some people think they can hear something.

No, the proper is response is to experiment again and again, chase the thing to ground, weed it out or turn it out.

And, whilst I'm sure that he is, whether Bhagwan is likeable or not is not the point! Hey: I'm likeable. Aparently :lol:

and not by concluding in haste like....

What haste? My network book remains ready to be eaten, but there is years that says it won't be. No hast here.

or conclusive, all-knowing statements like:

...like statement made by people who know at least a little about what they are talking about? Or just statements that don't suit a certain camp?

or ridicule what others are doing....

well, some things are ridiculous.

All I am asking is that we allow some room to maneuver should our knowledge or assumptions turn out to be limited, and give room for other opinions, and other voices.

Go to a data centre and ask what room there is for "opinion". My room for manouvre is on certain other things that don't make sense to me personally, but I cannot say, "this is impossible." That doesn't apply here, so, with the proviso that, my book is on the table, knife and fork ready, because, yes, stranger things have happened, your "all I ask" is declined. Well, OK, an "opinion" in Google or IBM might drive the next generation of networking, but you can be damned sure that person will have the story to date in his head, and understand it too.

Anyway, what does it mean? Not hearing the arguments you don't like the flavour of? Apply such things to music, not arguments. Arguments you can only answer, and such answers have not been made.

I like a good argument sometimes. It clears the brain, but this is not good.

There. I lost my cool. But I don't notice anyone saying, "Oh wow, Thad and and those other guys have kept their cool throughout this thread, what amazing patience they must have," so I guess it doesn't matter.


.

 

[sbg]

Alas!
I can never get .000000000000000001% extra from any ATM after all this discussion!

:sad:

 

[arj]

Alas!
I can never get .000000000000000001% extra from any ATM after all this discussion!

:sad:

Even if it did, For the ATM to give that to you in rs100 notes, you would have to take out a hell of a lot of money too ...and there ARE cases of people getting more/less notes..very often less than reported as many folks dont care to count.

 

[bhagwan]

I have already suggested some additional tests which might help convince him. A negative test where making the listeners think the cable has changed while not changing them for reasonable number of times and confirming the listeners are able to sense the cable has not changed.

Just to clarify, I did not question his intent or his integrity. I think I had put the "PS" there which lot of people missed reading. Please don't bring emotions into the picture. The statement was put to counter Captain's claims of there being unknown parameters and the intent of the statement was this - having studied about and seeing ethernet in use in my everyday life, I know how credilble and accurate it is. If it still is an unknown parameter, according to captain, as I do not have access to the experimental setup, how can Bhagwan's hearing, whose credibility (of his hearing and not of Bhagwan) is unknown, can be taken upon his word by other FMs who just know him in this forum to disprove my claims. I think thats a very logical call and I still hold on to what I said. Since you are not "questioning Bhagwan's hearing", may I know whats the basis of your confidence in him?

Science always works on reliable proofs and doubting another man's work is healthy practice and is encouraged. If not, we would still be living in a flat world where lightning and thunder would be attriubted to god's vengeance. Its as simple as this, if a person who doesn't know how to add comes and tells me 2+2=5 because his expensive calculator says so, I would not still believe him, because of what I know. I would still speculate that he may have pressed the wrong button in the calculator and explain probable causes of error. That does not mean I don't respect him or have a hidden agenda against him.

Sir,
I was not keen to get into this - maybe I did not want to make it get 'personal'
However, there are some basic things I want to state here;
a]
This Test was done for my personal understanding - it is not binding on any other person
b]
The People that did the test - with me are 'respected audiophiles' [in my book] - I hold their hearing in 'high regard'
c]
They [the people whose services I called upon] may not be known to you or to any other FM - if does not matter. It was / is important to me what they have to say - when they listen & pass a judgement.
d]
Doing Blind Test / Double Blind Test / Reverse Blind Test etc. etc. All this was done by me / us 1 + decade back - at the end of the day - what are we trying to do ? When we listen [with the number of years of listening] we do not need 'time' to know what is going on [sorry - this is my 1st 'bold' statement - do pardon me for saying this] - in 20 seconds; We go through 50 [almost 100 + sometimes] rooms of audio in it [gear that costs 250/-K US $'s ++] and we cannot do this blind / double blind / reverse blind test etc.
Either the system is 'singing' or it is 'not' !
e]
If 'we' found the cables to sound different - they do sound different - to us at least & that is all that matters.
f]
How many FM can sit in a room & listen to a set up & tell me / others or to them selves what is going on ? Can they even find a phantom centre ? Intensity of that Phantom Centre ? Height of the sound stage ? Height of the Cello viz - a - viz a Violin ? Space between the 1st violin & the 2nd violin ? Front to rear spacing ? Distance between the Violin Section & the Tympani ? Is the Wind Section playing from the far right corner in the back - neighbors house ?
g]
Technically, you think I DO NOT Know that CAT 5 / Cat 6 / Cat 7 / Cat 7 +
should not make a difference in the sound ? I very well know what the facts are [as per the book] The problem is that there is a 'difference' & therefore all this 'fuss' !!
h]
95 % + people that have voted here - do not think what I am doing has any merit & that is 100 % OK with me. No issue. I can live with that.
i]
I just want peole to 'listen' & then decide. The problem is - even if you listen - you may or may not be in a position to decide. Silly Example I will give - we all drive a car - I assume & if in 2 different drives - same car - same road - I change the Tyre Pressure by 3 to 5 PSI will most of us know ? There has been a change in handling ? I will surely not know. But, some persons are just sensitive to these things.
Does that make us 'bad' drivers ? No, just that some persons are 'better' at this that others - simple & we have to accept that.
Same is about listening to music - we can all listen to music & appreciate it - most can tell a difference & some cannot & those who can - are also at different stages in their listing ability - we have to understand & accept this...
How many of you while listening to a Tabla Solo [Madar CD - ECM Records - Track # 6 - Jaw] can tell [even if to themselves] that with different cables the Table 'height' on the platform is altering ? The Relationship of the Chata [Tabla] & the Duggi - space between them - what height plain are they playing in etc. etc. I could go on & on with examples & I will only more misunderstood; Gentlemen get humble & try to learn - rather than trying to impose - you will walk away 'wiser' & 'content' [your music will be more enjoyed by you] !
j]
Just to 'refute' the calculator example - all Calculators will show 2 + 2 = 4 & not 5 - but they will have different Fonts / Different Size Fonts / Some will show with no 'zero' in their answer & some will show them as 4.00[or some other version] - same answer - different 'representation' - depends how you want to look at it...Same with ATM Machines - Cash will always be the same - just different combination of notes / new & old notes etc. That will be the 'mix' [change in sound] - Data can never get changed [amount of money] but the way it is represented will alter;

I could go on and on - trying to 'defend'
But that will serve no purpose - I did this for a very different intent - obviously no one on this Forum 'got' what I was trying to do / say - so I suppose my experiment was a 'success' for me - it has failed in its larger objective;

I request MODS to CLOSE this thread.
Shall appreciate.

p.s. My Test are still on - as we speak - still have people scheduled to come - they will only come after eid - so next week - my search goes on.

 

[arj]

I could go on and on - trying to 'defend'
But that will serve no purpose - I did this for a very different intent - obviously no one on this Forum 'got' what I was trying to do / say - so I suppose my experiment was a 'success' for me - it has failed in its larger objective;

I request MODS to CLOSE this thread.
Shall appreciate.

Sir..exactly the reason why i wrote the below..want to put a smiley..but not the right emoticon to go with the feeling

panditji,
believe me, the result which bhagwan will arrive at, irrespective of what it is will remain disputed. if not in this forum, somewhere else.

it is like the kashmir problem.

The only person who will be satisfied with this will be bhagwan as he is the only one truly looking for and working for an answer..everybody else has already made their decision on what they will believehyeah: most of us anyway being armchair internet warriors (not targeted at anyone or any group in particular..generalised to most audio forums in the world)

So in the end, only bhagwan deserves the satisfaction of the result..as he is the only one trying to arrive at it objectively

My "philosophical" suggestion to bhagwan, for his own sake, is NOT to publish the results in this thread...all those who are really keen can PM him and find it out for themselves :lol:.