CD player or ext. DA-converter?

[sachi]

I'm sorry if I ruffled a few feathers here. I'm not an electronics engineer. But the little I know about opamps, there's always tonnes of NFB involved to get them to have a manageable gain. While technically NFB reduces noise, we all know what excess NFB can do to the sound in the real world. Frankly to tell you the truth, I've heard quite a few opamp based designs and have never really been impressed by any of them. They either sound grainy at the top or lack the bass heft one would expect out of a good source or both. There's a reason no one other than Benchmark uses an opamp output stage in their best designs.

thee benchmark DAC1 (guess that is what u are referring to) is nothing great to write home about in my opinion...

I beg to differ..My DIY DAC sounds pretty darn good with loads of detail and oomph in the bass region..they just needed some good headphones to listen out of ( u used the HD580s when i lent it to you which is good but not good enough). You should listen to them out of my Yamaha-Yh-100 orthodynamics...brilliant..not perfect..but i got some modding to do on the yammy before i get there..

 

[reignofchaos]

Hmm.. i don't know about the tube..everyone has their own tastes..i have come to love audio gear regardless of the technology they use...

I think there are better improvements to be seen with shunt regulators(or better regulation in general), better PCB design, clock rather than using a BJT output stage..There are some really good opamps out there..

And there are DACs that will bring out that difference...i think it all comes down to a matter of convenience, diminishing returns and personal taste above all as to which is better.

Opamps are used in the biggest of brand names..Jeff Rowland even had amps and probably still does made using chip amps seling for thousands of dollars..which i think are basically based on opamps

Opamps are too good of a thing in the electronic industry, audiophile or not to be ignored...

If you are talking about the ICEPower amps, those are Class D switching circuits. Anyway I have nothing against chip amps. Have heard quite a few which sound very very nice. However I'm still not convinced about using an opamp in a dac output stage. Its okay for cost limited budget designs but once you move on to higher end, there's lots better to be heard.

Edit: I never said anything positive about the Benchmark DAC anyway. I hate it . About headphones I used - I had used a Sennheiser HD650 and sorry to be blunt but my old Citypulse sounded a lot better than your DIY dac which completely lacked body in the bass region.

 

[sachi]

If you are talking about the ICEPower amps, those are Class D switching circuits. Anyway I have nothing against chip amps. Have heard quite a few which sound very very nice. However I'm still not convinced about using an opamp in a dac output stage. Its okay for cost limited budget designs but once you move on to higher end, there's lots better to be heard.

Nope..they used the LM3886s in ne of their amps which is a chip amp..

even i concede that the same chip amp family that is being used in my active 3 ways sufer from oomph in the bass....an Nchannel BJT based amp would be fantastic in the lower end.

Class D amps are realy really good..a couple at the RMAF this year blew me away

 

[sachi]

If you are talking about the ICEPower amps, those are Class D switching circuits. Anyway I have nothing against chip amps. Have heard quite a few which sound very very nice. However I'm still not convinced about using an opamp in a dac output stage. Its okay for cost limited budget designs but once you move on to higher end, there's lots better to be heard.

Edit: I never said anything positive about the Benchmark DAC anyway. I hate it . About headphones I used - I had used a Sennheiser HD650 and sorry to be blunt but my old Citypulse sounded a lot better than your DIY dac which completely lacked body in the bass region.

Different strokes for different people..i prefered the HD580 over the HD650 (which i thought had bloated bass) but you went the other way..until i came across the orthodynamic sound and sold the HD580 in a heartbeat.

we can't experience music the same way...which is the beauty of it.

i then found the Yh-100s to be above and over any headphones i had listened to...until my friend turned up with his homemade ones for 30 bucks..yes yes another otrthodynamic

 

[StanleyB]

I'm sorry if I ruffled a few feathers here. I'm not an electronics engineer. But the little I know about opamps, there's always tonnes of NFB involved to get them to have a manageable gain. While technically NFB reduces noise, we all know what excess NFB can do to the sound in the real world.

My great grandfather said that man would never get to the moon, because.... Of course his reasoning was wrong and his little knowledge amounted to nothing.

There are opamps and there are opamps. Some need NFB to set the gain, whilst others don't need any gain settings. An opamp has less noise and better distortion figures than a transistor. So how exactly would a discrete stage sound better? What is an opamp anyhow? Is it not a couple of transistors on a substrate?

The fact of the matter is that many expensive equipment manufacturer have used in their marketing the idea that discrete sounds better. Is like Oil Of Ulea advertising that using their products keeps women looking young and beautiful. Or that tiger bones are an aphrodisiac. You only find out that you have been conned after you have forked out a small fortune.

StanleyB

 

[reignofchaos]

I'm more than willing to believe you and eat my words if I actually find a dac with opamp output stage that I like. So far unfortunately I haven't and hence my opinion stands. Its one thing about having the best paper specs. However I guess you'd agree with me that one doesn't buy paper specs for musical enjoyment.

 

[StanleyB]

Perhaps you can name the DAC with a discrete stage that outperforms all other DACs with an opamp stage? How many different DACs have you listened to? One, two? 20 maybe? How many had opamp or a discrete stage?

Do you seriously believe that a U$20 OPA627 would sound far worse than a U$1.00 discrete equivalent? Maybe you can publish your circuit drawing of this amazing technical breakthrough that engineers have been searching for in vein so far.

StanleyB

 

[spirovious]

Well, you might be pleased to know that I am putting the finishing touches to the 2009 version, which will also include a USB option. My UK beta testers have now finished all their tests, and the artwork for the case has also been agreed on by the forum members at The Art of Sound Forum - Powered by vBulletin . That's the site where I hang out most of the time and hijack high-end gear from fellow members in order to do my R&D. I also borrow NAIM equipment from the guys on the Naim forum, where I have many customers who use my DAC alongside their 5000 CD5x CD player.

StanleyB

Congrates for new product,but the cost is exactly double the current rate.

 

[StanleyB]

Congrates for new product,but the cost is exactly double the current rate.

The is now less than 3/4 of its value against the U$ just a few months ago, and a new product with more components cost more. And then one has the amortization cost of the previous product that have long been paid for.

 

[ajinkya]

"While technically NFB reduces noise, we all know what excess NFB can do to the sound in the real world."

This statement and others like it worry me. I have respect for RoC's knowledge but this statement is not true. Negative feedback is a double-edged sword...it's correct implementation is always a good thing for the final system. Our telephone system works the way it does because of Harold Black's amplifier design. If you don't analyse the system well, you can end up destabilising it with neg. feedback. I don't know why so many audio enthusiasts have resentment with this technology, without first understanding how it works.

I remember a senior advisor of mine whose PhD was based on improving the sound of loudspeakers using neg. feedback from the output via a mic based design. The technology is now patented. However, the first company he went to to implement this product (I think it was an Australian studio monitor manufacturer) actually covered the first prototype with a non-removable cloth grille so that the reviewers did not see the mic. Only once the reviews came back extremely positive did they unveil the technology. Then of course, the reviewers had to shut their mouths :-D

My point is, let us not make general statements about certain technologies without first completely understanding them and then having numbers to back them up. Otherwise we all are just propogating someone else's opinion/thoughts/mistakes.

I have similar misgivings when I see people recommending/berating certain products based only on the chipsets used inside them. Only components mean nothing...their final design, interconnection and synergy creates the magic.
No offense meant to anyone on this forum.

-Jinx.

 

[StanleyB]

Very good post ajinkya. I myself have long since stopped paying much attention to pseudo-technical comments by people who have more say than knowledge. In my time I have done much to disprove what others dismissed as technically impossible. It's just unfortunate that I did not have my own business then, otherwise the financial rewards would have been all mine and mine alone.

StanleyB

 

[spirovious]

Well,

CA DAC magic now available in India for Rs.25500/- at FX international.

Fx Entertainment-

Corporate Office & Flagship Store
40 / 46, CR Park, Lower Ground FLoor,
New Delhi 110 019, India

Off Tel : +91 11 40507113, 40507114
Fax : +91 11 40507112
H / P : +91 98104 99942
Email : [email protected]
Website: Fx Entertainment

 

[StanleyB]

That is 3 times the price of the TC-7510. Even though many have bought the DacMagic to compare against the TC-7510, not a single test from any DM owner has yet mentioned that it sounds better than the Beresford.
By the way, I just won the Best Buy Award from HIFI Choice. Details are published in the February issue. It came above the Dacmagic and many far more expensive DACs.

Stan

 

[spirovious]

That is 3 times the price of the TC-7510. Even though many have bought the DacMagic to compare against the TC-7510, not a single test from any DM owner has yet mentioned that it sounds better than the Beresford.
By the way, I just won the Best Buy Award from HIFI Choice. Details are published in the February issue. It came above the Dacmagic and many far more expensive DACs.

Stan

Congrates for award,

All members are woking out for 7510 I suppose?Nobody responding for long.

 

[particleman]

That is 3 times the price of the TC-7510. Even though many have bought the DacMagic to compare against the TC-7510, not a single test from any DM owner has yet mentioned that it sounds better than the Beresford.
By the way, I just won the Best Buy Award from HIFI Choice. Details are published in the February issue. It came above the Dacmagic and many far more expensive DACs.

Stan

Congratulations, Stan. I have read several glowing reviews of the 7510. I would like to know: Is your DAC available in India?

 

[gobble]

That is 3 times the price of the TC-7510. Even though many have bought the DacMagic to compare against the TC-7510, not a single test from any DM owner has yet mentioned that it sounds better than the Beresford.
By the way, I just won the Best Buy Award from HIFI Choice. Details are published in the February issue. It came above the Dacmagic and many far more expensive DACs.

Stan

Congratulations!! I haven't red any reviews yet, but once I do, I will make my buying decision this quarter.

Cheers

 

[psychotropic]

Sorry to digress from the topic, but Venkat, I was reading about the TEAC player you recommended and it sounds like a good deal. What excites me the most however is that TEAC makes some of the world's best transports, and tacking on an external DAC to something like that sounds like a very smart thing to do. I do wonder if the combination of this 200 USD TEAC player and the 7500 INR Beresford DAC can give the CA, Marantz and NAD players worth twice their combined cost a run for their money. I'd like to think so, but that's just supporting the underdog.... I wonder how this TEAC performs when used purely as a transport.....I'd love it if someone would try this combination and report with results!

 

[venkatcr]

I'd like to think so, but that's just supporting the underdog.... I wonder how this TEAC performs when used purely as a transport.....I'd love it if someone would try this combination and report with results!

I am also looking in the same line. Instead of spending some 60 to 80K on a CDP, I think we can get comparable results at around 20K with a decent drive and a good DAC. And an external DAC is becoming more and more necessary as we move to computer based files. My 2K Sony PC drive, using EAC, rips CDs with 99% to 100% accuracy. And this is confirmed by EAC itself against reference data on its database. EAC uses a standard offset that it checks regularly. I don't think any CDP can guarantee that much accuracy. Once the data is moved well, the rest is just DAC.

Most manufacturers of CDPs use transports from other companies such as Philips and Teac. Teac's Esoteric drives are some of the best in the world. Of course, they would be using better parts and circuitry as compared to their low cost drives.

I am looking at ways of getting the Teac drive and testing it. It will, though, take some time as I am in the midst of other tasks right now.

Cheers

 

[spirovious]

Hi Venkat,

Dealor for Teac in India is Shemaroo.
In Mumbai it is at Augustkranti maidan,near Nana chauk.

Head office Andheri(E)

I once went to see Mission,when discovered Teac spk. too.

Teac- [email protected]
or try-http://www.shemaroo.com/corporate/?pgtype=contactus


Shemaroo House, Plot No 18,
Marol Co-op. Industrial Estate,
Saug Baug, Marol Naka,
Off. Andheri-Kurla Road Andheri (E),
Mumbai 400 059.

Phone:+91-022-28529911

Email: [email protected]

 

[gobble]

That is 3 times the price of the TC-7510. Even though many have bought the DacMagic to compare against the TC-7510, not a single test from any DM owner has yet mentioned that it sounds better than the Beresford.
By the way, I just won the Best Buy Award from HIFI Choice. Details are published in the February issue. It came above the Dacmagic and many far more expensive DACs.

Stan

Hey Stanley

Is the new Beresford with USB going to have an lcd display to navigate folders? Is there a limit on max files ? If I plug in my usb stick it will play FLAC format right?

TIA for replying yes to all.

Or is the usb meant to connect to a PC for playback?

cheers