Components that matter- Turntable.

[prakashsubbanna]

"The Spin doctor" called the Turntable is back for some time now after its near wipe out due to the onslaught of the digital era. This must be one of the epic come back of technologies from the years gone by. I wonder if some thing else will have the same comeback impact in the world of technology.

The weekend partys now-a-day, Boys young and old are abuzz about Vinyls, turntables, Vintage & all the more how to procure it. Along with usual talk of weather, traffic and automobiles, mobiles etc.

If you come across a Dusty hairdo of a hardcore Analog music enthusiast on a weekend with his bag full...its all the more likely he would be coming back form climbing an Attic or a Dusty garage in search of LPs from courteous old gentleman.hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:

This thought of evaluating the critical components came to my mind when i landed myself with a 1968 Garrad TT GT-35P. This TT is younger to me by 4 years to my age :lol::lol: (More of its re-birth story in another thread). Fortunately its breathing and singing sweet after an extensive restoration.

I have a feeling that components can be broadly classified in to two. One for Aesthetics/Cosmetics & another is essential/performance. When i saw my Garrad GT 35-P. I was wondering where to start.

Being a novice But, full of enthusiasm was wondering, is it worth the effort to breath life into it ( without knowing the end result) or better off buying something new and be done about...safe and sound.

Ok..coming to the classification of components
the critical ones are ( according to me) for some every component is 100% critical.

The stylus, Cartridge, tone arm, head-shell, bearings, weights, platter, speed control and other electro-mechanical components.

The cosmetic ones are the knobs, the plinth of wood or plastic, dust cover, support feet, etc.

So, for a novice its little tricky as to where you have to attack..?? As cost involved in sourcing the components is high (which are expensive and have to be imported)

Is it ok to live with a good essential components which sounds sweet and a little beaten exterior

Or else go for a complete re-wamp as seen on some of the vintage beauties. Mind you even a plinth build is quite expensive as discussed in some of the threads. Let alone other cosmetic stuff knobs, covers etc.

All you Analog Sound enthusiasts...whats you priorities and to what extent this indulgence can go before its too deep into your pockets..:lol::lol::lol:

These sweet sounding electro-mechanical beauties are always a work of art in which ever form they come. The process of restoration painfully-fun..!!
Which may include re-sleeving your LPs and keeping them in near sterile condition.

"You may forego your bath for a day But, not a wash of your LPs before you play".

Life has come a full circle with these " Spin Doctors".

Mods if this seem irrelevant post...feel free to delete it.

 

[jls001]

Good topic!

Turntable performance is literally dependent on a correct balance of all the things you listed. As a first step, check for speed stability. This is very critical as the ability to reproduce correct tone, timbre and pitch depends on it. For example a fast running platter will produce a shriller pitch than actually encoded in the groove. If speed adjustment can correct it, all is good. If it doesn't, it is a big problem, and may be due to the speed control electronics, or belt, or bad idler wheel, etc.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

Thank you Mods for the approval of this topic.

These electro-mechanical devices drives you nuts either way...By providing a very sweet music or by refusing perform well.

The entire process of etching the music on those plastic plates & listening them back in the original form is a big Handshake ( in Telecom parlance).

Hats off to the guys who visioned these technologies and made it possible. Its like a Big-Orchestra below the platter and above...Everything has to be in Sync.:clapping:

Best part is the click,pops of the static which is part of the music if its a old record.

Recently i was reminded by my better half that that i have used up all the HAND-WASH near the sink in a record time:yahoo::...Honestly, part of it has gone for those dear LPs for it to be squeaky clean..hyeah:hyeah:

Not to forget you need to be off your seat to change tracks/side...No remote..Soo...LPs indulgence is Healthy too...!!hyeah:hyeah:

+1 jls001 to your observation.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/prakash_subbanna/stats

 

[thx911]

Breath taking Photography btw! :clapping:

 

[greenhorn]

I wouldn't brush away the feet, plinth and dust cover away just like that. If they're done wrong, they can screw up the sound - for example we had a FM who had a TT which had excessive feedback until the dust cover was removed.
I had a feedback problem that was solved by some DIY on teh feet.
The same goes for the plinth. An insufficiently damped plinth may ruin the sound

 

[prakashsubbanna]

@greenhorn, its an interesting observation and understanding of how even, the mundane looking components play a critical role in final quality audio.

@thx911, thanks for your appreciation on my photographs.

So, do we get to understand that we need a set of check points a-z..and process of fault elimination to resolve issues.

In that case, from where to start???

 

[Anil kumar]

Praksah, welcome to TT world
Yes, i agree with greenhorn. Some times i listen to LP's without dust cover.

 

[jls001]

So, do we get to understand that we need a set of check points a-z..and process of fault elimination to resolve issues.

In that case, from where to start???

Where to start depends on whether you want to do the usual cleaning, oiling and setup routine, or go deeper under the hood.

As a first step, ensure that the turntable support is truly level. Use a cheap spirit level, or a spirit level app on an Android/iPhone. Put the turntable on it and again check for level. Use the spirit level on top of the platter, frst in left-right direction then in back-front direction. Adjust footer heights if required. If footers are worn, or not adjustable, a piece of paper folded together to get desired thickness to increase height of a particular footer can be a temporary solution to get a correctly levelled TT.

Second, check speed stability using strobe disc or in-built strobe. Adjust as required. Check stability for all supported speeds.

Balanced tone arm and set correct tracking force and antiskate. I presume cartridge is mounted correctly. Gently swing the tonearm left and right and up and down across the platter. Check if the arm moves freely, without any notchiness. If it doesn't move smoothly, it is a sign of some problem in the arm's bearing.

It is a good practice to clean the motors and bearing, and oil them with correct grade of oil. Cleaning the motor and bearing involves dismantling them so it may not be advisable for everyone to attempt.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

@jls001...That's some valid points to be noted and attacked bottoms-up. I would hurry-up tomorrow morning for a Bubble level . Not to forget making sure i stand level-footed.

I wonder if any of these measures were in practice or vouge 4 decades back when the like of HMV record player with combi stylus played merrily for years on & on..!!!!

 

[jls001]

For cartridges that required heavy tracking weights of the order of 9-10 grams (especially ceramic cartridges), having a level TT was probably less critical. Modern cartridges track at much lower force of the order of 1.25 to 2.5 grams. So the arm is more immune to being forced off the record groove by the skating force which is a result of the spinning record. As the tracking force applied on modern cartridges is much lower, it is inherently less able to withstand the skating force. So we try to help along by making the TT perfectly level, so that the arm doesn't have some left or right acting force acting on in, even before anti skating force is applied, either in the left or right directions (assuming one is viewing the TT from the front). The correct anti skate force must be applied through the anti skate mechanism. It must not be pre-biased, else anti skate setting becomes wrong. Wrong setting can bend the stylus in the long run, and can also wear one side of the record groove more than the other. It can also probably cause some amount of channel imbalance.

The forgoing discussion applies mainly to 9-10 inch arms. Of course heavier 12 inch arms are much less immune to the skating force by virtue of the heavier effective weight of the arm-cartridge combo, so you'll find that many 12 inch arms don't even have anti skating mechanism.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

@jls001, this is turning out be very interesting as to what level of precision that one can go or has to go to get that every detail from a Vinyl.

Do i get to understand that modern TT's has evolved for a light tracking force cartridge/stylus/tonearm combo to get even more music from the Vinyl..?? Or the older Gen TTs/ record players had their own limitations.

I am certainly getting to know more about the " Anatomy of Turntables" in the course of this thread & as well as the precise role of these components.

All said and done how does one know how good his Vinyl/TT combo is sounding having taken care of all the above mentioned parameters??

There may be Good/Bad records, Good/Bad stylus, G/B Tone arm & many other factors..!!

Is that one needs to improve on their own by trail & error or is there a friendly FM visit that can sort out the issues for the betterment of your set-up.

 

[jls001]

Lighter tracking force damages record grooves less.

More exotic stylus geometries like elliptical may help dig out more details from the groove, but they're more demanding of correct setup, especially of the azimuth and stylus rake angle. And they're probably less forgiving of poor records. So there's give and take.

For your Garrard, I would suggest that you try to get leveling, arm balance, tracking force, over hang and anti skate correct. I don't think the TT allows any more adjustment.

Do read the manual from cover to cover. It will cover all the above mentioned points.

Later, if you want to get incremental improvement, you can try null point adjustment.

Hope this gives you some direction.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

@jls001, appreciate the information you shared. Will start addressing the problem one by one. Regards.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

sorry about the repeat post..!

 

[prakashsubbanna]

Course of this discussion some very important parameters has come to my understanding & some more in the pipeline ( i presume).

Armed with Bubble level I have taken care that my Garrad gt-35p is
" Levelheaded"..

After some reading/ reviews/ discussions i have ordered new headshell with wires & Shure cartridge.

What ever existing Cart/stylus combo i could manage(borrowed) as of now, i have learnt the art of Balancing the the tone arm & setting up of VTA & Anti skate.

I have set aside one record as "Guinea pig" for all initial learning phase. Looks like i am little confident, and a long way to achieve that perfect setting.

My next intriguing Noob doubt is...about Records & Stylus..

What are the detrimental effects of :

a: Good record - Bad stylus

b: Good Stylus - Bad Records..

c: Old records - Old needles.

d: New records - New needs.

Are we ruining both or one withstands the beating for a longer time. ?
Should we start with brand new Record/ Stylus combo and see where it goes..

Gentleman please throw some light on it...The reason i asked this was ..in the course of time we are bound to collect some Old records & play it. Taking all the precautions that they are well cleaned and maintained.

This turning out to be more than just " Jean/ T-shirt " for all occasions..hyeah:

 

[greenhorn]

I don't think a stylus can get damaged by a record. styluses get damaged because of user handling, incorrect alignment etc.

worn styluses do damage records, but more harm is caused to records by incorrect tonearm setup (too much VTF, alignment, azimuth etc)

 

[jls001]

Do also report if the changes you have made has improved the sound (lest you become a gearhead who's forgotten about the music).

Bad cartridges to be replaced A.S.A.P.

Bad records will keep coming your way. Since there are very few new pressings, one gets mainly used records. When buying used, look for records that don't have scratches in the surfaces. Hold it at an angle that allows you to see the surface for light scratches. At the correct angle, you will also see if the record surface has the shine left. Less shiny surface is a sign of wear. You will usually not get good sound from such records even if it's scratchless. Ignore dust deposits, they can be easily washed away.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

Well, I am certainly not a gearhead..But, certainly want an optimal performance of any given rig. Having said that, will walk an extra mile for the sake of these vintage beauties.

Sourcing is a concern along with the drain on the exchequer..!!

Heartening to know that stylus is the one which will have a longer life ( having taken care of it properly). Old records will be the main source. New ones are expensive and the rear albums may not be re-pressed.

Appreciate the info on how to check wear on those LPs.

Coming to tweaks & improvements....I did two thing...

a: Did level the TT using Bubble level on both X & Y axis.

b: Changed the RCA interconnects to a better quality shielded ones from the regular run of the mill cheap RCA.

Result is ...Music has come alive for the same record played, Background hum seem to have disappeared.
I cant attribute it to which tweaks a or b...But, overall sounds more musical.

 

[jls001]

To add: don't buy records that come with no inner sleeve. The grooves are invariably damaged and they never sound good in my experience. After too many bad experiences I strictly follow this self set rule irrespective of how attractive the title is.

 

[prakashsubbanna]

Hi Guys, Here is an update from my side wrt. to Garrad GT-35P.

I did get the new headshell, Cartridge & knobs for the TT.

Technics Headshell with wires and Shure M97xe cart. Did the installation and followed all the procedure, VTF, Balancing, tracking & protractor.

Results are very impressive. Deep bass, distinct mids and pleasing highs.. I have given to understand that the Cart/stylus combo has to dig in for at least 25-30hrs to its optimal performance ( correct me if i am wrong).

Of course ...the set of original knobs ( expensive ) are for cosmetic reasons and pleasing to look at.