Creation of a Huge Sound-Stage.

[raj]

Sidvee
Next time you are here, you must come to our showroom, its now completely revamped with LEDE treatment but with our own small changes...

I would be interested in dropping by your showroom to see how you have done this. I am planning to do the same for my HT room.

 

[sidvee]

Sidvee
Next time you are here, you must come to our showroom, its now completely revamped with LEDE treatment but with our own small changes...

Definitely Sridhar - Hope to visit B'lore in Aug/Sep timeframe and a visit to your listening room is high priority.
Cheers
Sid

 

[dinyaar]

Hi din, just i follow your threads and replies, do you feel any difference between ic and balance xlr. What s the difference? Hope you might have experienced. How s accuphase is it class a. It is gorgeous product of asian continent i feel. Mercedes of asia isnt it?

Yes I do feel a diff in an unbalanced (RCA) and a balanced (XLR) provided the components are true balanced designs. Some guys actually prefer the former!!! I have experimented with the same cable in both forms to be sure. In theory for short lengths it should not matter but if one is using long ICS a balanced is a preferred connection when the provision is present. I have used the XLRs from the Rotels to the Brystons and now with the Accuphase.

My Accuphase is not class A. Its the E 450 which is the largest integrated. The E560 is the class A int but with only 30 W X 8 Ohms my choice of speaker would be severely restricted. The larger Class A power amps are great but at even 'greater' prices.

("Mercedes of Asia") well I think its a well made product that can be compared to anything that the west can come up with. I dont just say this cause I own it. Some Jap stuff in audio is superb and quality is top class.
Rgds

 

[murali]

Some small thoughts from a little experience...
When we talk of soundstage, let us be a little more explicit here. In many systems I have heard, the soundstage can be better described as a 'cinemascope' equivalent, with signficant depth at the centre but almost flat at the ends. The finest sound reproduction systems give it almost a 3-D effect, the most noticeable being the depth at the ends and corners of the room. Of course, it has to match with reality too, as I have heard piano keys sounding as if the performer had 6ft long hands. A classic test case is the Chesky demonstration disc (Volume 1) in which there is a recording inside a huge cathderal with the mic suspended in mid-air from a huge ceiling. I often consider this as a real test in evaluating the soundstage, how wide and deep and tall, how believable it is. Then there is Burmester test CD with a Chinese percussion drum performance in the last track and if your system reproduces some of the drums sounds as if coming from more than 10ft away from the corners of your room, don't spend any more money to improve your system. Another very useful CD is Naim's True Stereo in which they have given sketches of the positioning of instruments and singer for each track (available in Naim website) in 2 dimensions.

There is no doubt that speaker positioning is very critical and unless the speakers are pushed as much away from the walls as possible, in other words tuned for mid-range and not for bass as many people do, getting a decent soundstage is tough. Of course, the source and amplifiers also matter, especially the preamp; the better it is, the more believable the soundstage.

In some instances, I have noticed the soundstage shrinking in steep crossover speakers due to phase effects. In electronics, the global feedback does affect and the less feedback your amp uses, the better.

Other things like cables, stands, footers, all those tweeks etc have more effect on the focus and accuracy rather than the soundstage.

Thanks for the patient reading.

cheers.
murali

 

[malvai]

Some small thoughts from a little experience...
When we talk of soundstage, let us be a little more explicit here. In many systems I have heard, the soundstage can be better described as a 'cinemascope' equivalent, with signficant depth at the centre but almost flat at the ends. The finest sound reproduction systems give it almost a 3-D effect, the most noticeable being the depth at the ends and corners of the room. Of course, it has to match with reality too, as I have heard piano keys sounding as if the performer had 6ft long hands. A classic test case is the Chesky demonstration disc (Volume 1) in which there is a recording inside a huge cathderal with the mic suspended in mid-air from a huge ceiling. I often consider this as a real test in evaluating the soundstage, how wide and deep and tall, how believable it is. Then there is Burmester test CD with a Chinese percussion drum performance in the last track and if your system reproduces some of the drums sounds as if coming from more than 10ft away from the corners of your room, don't spend any more money to improve your system. Another very useful CD is Naim's True Stereo in which they have given sketches of the positioning of instruments and singer for each track (available in Naim website) in 2 dimensions.

There is no doubt that speaker positioning is very critical and unless the speakers are pushed as much away from the walls as possible, in other words tuned for mid-range and not for bass as many people do, getting a decent soundstage is tough. Of course, the source and amplifiers also matter, especially the preamp; the better it is, the more believable the soundstage.

In some instances, I have noticed the soundstage shrinking in steep crossover speakers due to phase effects. In electronics, the global feedback does affect and the less feedback your amp uses, the better.

Other things like cables, stands, footers, all those tweeks etc have more effect on the focus and accuracy rather than the soundstage.

Thanks for the patient reading.

cheers.
murali

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
very well put Murali!

and your observations are SPOT ON!

 

[thevortex]

Yes I do feel a diff in an unbalanced (RCA) and a balanced (XLR) provided the components are true balanced designs. Some guys actually prefer the former!!! I have experimented with the same cable in both forms to be sure. In theory for short lengths it should not matter but if one is using long ICS a balanced is a preferred connection when the provision is present. I have used the XLRs from the Rotels to the Brystons and now with the Accuphase.

My Accuphase is not class A. Its the E 450 which is the largest integrated. The E560 is the class A int but with only 30 W X 8 Ohms my choice of speaker would be severely restricted. The larger Class A power amps are great but at even 'greater' prices.

("Mercedes of Asia") well I think its a well made product that can be compared to anything that the west can come up with. I dont just say this cause I own it. Some Jap stuff in audio is superb and quality is top class.
Rgds

Somewhat related question, Dinyaar. If we use an adaptor to convert XLR to RCA would there be any diminishing of quality? Or vice versa (RCA to XLR)?

 

[odyssey]

XLR to RCA yes - you can hear a difference, since you are going from true balanced (in Dinyaar's example) to unbalanced. The other way around, you shouldnt hear a difference if the connectors/wires are of good quality.

cheers

 

[arj]

The vortex,

Somewhat related question, Dinyaar. If we use an adaptor to convert XLR to RCA would there be any diminishing of quality? Or vice versa (RCA to XLR)?

the quality of the converter is very important and that can degrade the sound. tillnow I have heard of Cardas having good converters but they are $$$

also XLR usually has a higher level of output (due to a +ve and a -ve signal in a subtractive mode) and while XLR to RCA shyld be ok, I am not sure how an RCA to XLR will work

Sridhar, great to hear about your new showroom ..i remember you mentioning about it last time

 

[dinyaar]

Somewhat related question, Dinyaar. If we use an adaptor to convert XLR to RCA would there be any diminishing of quality? Or vice versa (RCA to XLR)?

Both Odyssey & Arj have answered.

I have limited experience with this kind of adapter. The ones available locally are a brand called Sunrize and IMO do more harm than good. The cardas ones on the website seem great but at great prices. Neutrik is sometimes available and seems a VFM solution if one HAS TO USE AN ADAPTER.
What I would do is re terminate the cable (provided it has 3 conductors in the first place) to my specification.

Basically in the XLR to RCA the adapter is shorting the + & - and the third wire goes to the body (ground) of the RCA. Seems fine But the other way seems avoidable to my mind.

Shridhar, actually Jim Marker was using these adapters when he had the Emerald Physics. I believe the behringer only accepted XLR and all his cables were single ended. Now I dont know how much that degraded the sound.

Rgds

PS Sorry for the off topic :- Vortex do u think Federer will retain his Wimbledon crown? Its not just yesterdays match. The feeling I get is that the guy is somewhat losing the motivation / Drive. I hope Andy Roddick wins this one as I think he deserves it.

 

[odyssey]

Hi Dinyaar
There are two scenarios

A component which is designed to be truly balanced vs one that has XLR and RCA but is not truly balanced. I am only referring to the first one. The second is only a convenience/adaptor issue. In the first scenario, Jimmy wouldnt have had a balanced output CDP, most low end CDPs arent balanced anyway. How much he would have lost is hard to say as the Behringer itself isnt known for great sound quality given its cost, one cant expect it. THe audible difference will only be in a gear such as yours where you can hear the difference between single ended and balanced. Also, you can just make the cable with RCA and XLR on either end (or have them made from your dealer/cable brand), I wouldnt recommend buying these adaptors, I feel most of them end up ruining the quality, unless as Arj mentioned, you buy something good like Cardas.

cheers
Sridhar

 

[dinyaar]

Spot on Odyssey.

I wouldn't buy them either. Would rather custom make myself.
Yes his cdp only has single ended outputs.

Rgds

 

[murali]

Hi Dinyaar
There are two scenarios

A component which is designed to be truly balanced vs one that has XLR and RCA but is not truly balanced. I am only referring to the first one. The second is only a convenience/adaptor issue. In the first scenario, Jimmy wouldnt have had a balanced output CDP, most low end CDPs arent balanced anyway. How much he would have lost is hard to say as the Behringer itself isnt known for great sound quality given its cost, one cant expect it. THe audible difference will only be in a gear such as yours where you can hear the difference between single ended and balanced. Also, you can just make the cable with RCA and XLR on either end (or have them made from your dealer/cable brand), I wouldnt recommend buying these adaptors, I feel most of them end up ruining the quality, unless as Arj mentioned, you buy something good like Cardas.



cheers
Sridhar

I wish to supplement this, balanced vs unbalanced. As said correctly, unless the equipment is truly balanced from input to output, don't think of any significant advantages. Many components are not fully balanced and rather use a splitter before the output making it 'pseudobalanced'. A truly balanced component costs a lot. My own experience:

I started with Arcam CDP (unbalanced, Arcam do not believe balanced design for CDP because of the high voltage output of 2V) then changed to Ayre CDP (fully balanced). VTL-5.5 preamp was pseudobalanced (single ended input and balanced output) and now it is Audio Research Ref-3 (fully balanced). My Ayre power amp is fully balanced too. I had used RCA-XLR adapters, including Cardas, but believe me, a better quality single ended cable sounded much better than balanced cable in mixed-up configurations. Now I run fully balanced XLR interconnects all the way from CDP to power amp and that is significant improvement, though I spent much more money. But I planned it that way over a period of several years.

Bottom line: Unless you have a fully and truly balanced set-up, don't waste money on balanced cables and adapters. Use your money to buy better quality single ended cables and you won't regret. Of course, if you plan to phase your acquisition over a period of time with the objective of ending up with a fully balanced set-up, then either you can consider balanced cables and adapters or still use single ended cables and later sell them (or use in other places like HT) and buy XLR cables.

Just my 2 cents, please. Thanks.

cheers.
murali

 

[arj]

...But I planned it that way over a period of several years.

Murali, thats a remarkable achievement. Loved the idea of a planned progress towards an end state. Its not easy to do.

 

[murali]

Murali, thats a remarkable achievement. Loved the idea of a planned progress towards an end state. Its not easy to do.

Thanks, arj. It was not easy and I had to wait for opportunities (and of course, enough funds). You are already aware of my quest for new speakers. The final item in my list (hopefully before calling it a day) is a pair of monoblocks, may be in another year or two, God willing as they say here.

cheers
murali

 

[Pandamaudio]

The recording :sad:
unfortunately the recording engineer is the true artist and for "Reality" need to know exactly what he had in mind...which is the main problem
Everything else is either make-believe or delusions of an active audiophile mind

In my personal experience the placement of the speakers ie Toe in, distance from back and side walls and some kind of a treatment to ensure reflections are dissipated or absorbed make great soundstages (Real or make believe).

Rightly described by arj, the recording and mixing process is the most vital part.

To obtain a proper soundstage, the speakers must be well designed and optimized for high quality reproduction capability to start with, placed in an equilateral triangle with the listening position, aimed to the listening position and more than 1.2meters from the sidewalls, floor and ceiling to avoid early reflections at directional frequencies above 85Hz. If these basic requirements are met, the soundstage in a good recording / mix will be reproduced properly by the speakers given that all the source equipment is working fine

 

[gobble]

Rightly described by arj, the recording and mixing process is the most vital part.

To obtain a proper soundstage, the speakers must be well designed and optimized for high quality reproduction capability to start with, placed in an equilateral triangle with the listening position, aimed to the listening position and more than 1.2meters from the sidewalls, floor and ceiling to avoid early reflections at directional frequencies above 85Hz. If these basic requirements are met, the soundstage in a good recording / mix will be reproduced properly by the speakers given that all the source equipment is working fine

It is not so complicated. A good speaker will image quite decently in any home.

that aside, i have a few recordings where certain sounds on certain tracks emanate one foot outside my speakers like they are coming from the wall. So if my speakers are capable of it, why do 80% of my CDs not show this quality? I guess the recording also matters ...

Cheers

 

[Pandamaudio]

Gobble, after having got associated with Genelec, I have had the opportunity to visit many recording studios, and study how they work, and discuss with some good recording / mix engineers. I feel that most of the studios are ill equipped missing some bits of necessary (sometimes expensive) equipment and also at times untrained technicians working on recording / mixing projects.

I firmly believe that a good mix with a good soundstage depends on the phase relationship between all the tracks being mixed down in a studio. If the phase relationship between the tracks is not checked and corrected, result is a largely unpredictable soundstage in different reproduction systems placed in different acoustical environments. Very few recording / mixing engineers check this or do anything about it considering the time, equipment and cumbersome process required to do this properly. This probably explains why 80% of your CD's don't show the quality.

 

[gobble]

Gobble, after having got associated with Genelec, I have had the opportunity to visit many recording studios, and study how they work, and discuss with some good recording / mix engineers. I feel that most of the studios are ill equipped missing some bits of necessary (sometimes expensive) equipment and also at times untrained technicians working on recording / mixing projects.

I firmly believe that a good mix with a good soundstage depends on the phase relationship between all the tracks being mixed down in a studio. If the phase relationship between the tracks is not checked and corrected, result is a largely unpredictable soundstage in different reproduction systems placed in different acoustical environments. Very few recording / mixing engineers check this or do anything about it considering the time, equipment and cumbersome process required to do this properly. This probably explains why 80% of your CD's don't show the quality.

Yes I heard it is very easy to invert phase even before the microphone connects to the studio equipment unless care is taken.

Thanks

Regards

 

[malvai]

Gobble, after having got associated with Genelec, I have had the opportunity to visit many recording studios, and study how they work, and discuss with some good recording / mix engineers. I feel that most of the studios are ill equipped missing some bits of necessary (sometimes expensive) equipment and also at times untrained technicians working on recording / mixing projects.

I firmly believe that a good mix with a good soundstage depends on the phase relationship between all the tracks being mixed down in a studio. If the phase relationship between the tracks is not checked and corrected, result is a largely unpredictable soundstage in different reproduction systems placed in different acoustical environments. Very few recording / mixing engineers check this or do anything about it considering the time, equipment and cumbersome process required to do this properly. This probably explains why 80% of your CD's don't show the quality.

That is sooo true. I have been working with recording sudios for my various advertising projects and I feel that audio studio's in India are very very ill equipped when compared to the studio's abroad. this reflects in our recordings as well.

In short, i don't expect much of a soundtage from Indian recordings. Though, i believe that the HMV studio of old used to be a professional set up in its time...

 

[Pandamaudio]

Yes I heard it is very easy to invert phase even before the microphone connects to the studio equipment unless care is taken.

Ha Ha .... I was not referring to phase invert .... that's easy. I was referring to variable phase correction .... that's not easy. Variable phase correction of each and every track after eq is done, is a very complex task. Also the equipment required for this task is very expensive and the time and patience to do it is very consuming. And finally is the customer willing to pay for that many more studio hours for this process? Our good indian recording engineers can easily do this if the producer / director is willing to pay for the extra equipment and expensive man hours a good engineer requires. Question is, how many projects can afford it? Not too many if you ask the recording / mixing industry. Most producers / directors want to have the mix completed in the minimum studio hours unfortunately with such compromises