Creation of a Huge Sound-Stage.

[murali]

This thread is now taking different dimensions by starting with components affecting soundstage, then unbalanced vs balanced interconnects, and now recordings played at the source. Yes, I fully agree that what and how is recorded on the disc you are playing is equally important. But here, let us note very clearly that using recordings done at studios, or mixed and processed at the whims and fancies of technicians and engineers, to judge soundstage effect is like chasing a mirage. One CD I cherish, a JVC recording bought nearly twenty years ago from USA, is a solo veena by the late S Balachander, with no accompaniments, captured straight from the stage using a stereo mic system by JVC engineers, and without colorations. If you want to listen to how strings should sound, you should listen to this. If your system sounds like playing the veena as it should be by someone in front of you, that is it. At the other extreme, I mentioned about the Burmester disc with a chain of different sounding drums scattered all over a soundstage and if your system can reproduce the stage in a rectangular pattern in two dimensions, again that is it. Or, from the Chesky disc I spoke about, the choir inside the huge cathederal should give you the vertical dimensions of the row of singers, no doubt, you can't do much more with your system. These are professionally recorded tracks in top-notch discs one can use to ponder over the soundstage. If the arguments are related to mass market discs produced from studios, I am afraid we are not going to get anywhere. Even with my < $200 JVC system I am using here (at my temporary home), by manipulating a bit, I can listen to a decent soundstage with mass market records but inside me, I know I am far away from truth and reality. But music is music, isn't it?

My concluding remarks in this thread. Thanks to those who read and also to those who thanked me. Just sharing some thoughts and experiences, that is all.

Happy listening.
murali

 

[sidvee]

My best experiences with recordings on a CD for soundstage width and depth has been the JVC XRCD series.
Cheers
Sid

 

[murali]

My best experiences with recordings on a CD for soundstage width and depth has been the JVC XRCD series.
Cheers
Sid

Then you haven't tried SACD, my friend. My source plays all formats in 2-channel stereo and believe me, soundstage with SACD is the ultimate. The best example I can give is Miles Davis Kind of Blue which I have both CD and SACD versions and the latter is way way ahead.

cheers.
murali

 

[corElement]

Get hearing aids

 

[sidvee]

Then you haven't tried SACD, my friend. My source plays all formats in 2-channel stereo and believe me, soundstage with SACD is the ultimate. The best example I can give is Miles Davis Kind of Blue which I have both CD and SACD versions and the latter is way way ahead.

cheers.
murali

I have both the SACD and Cd versions of kind of blue as well as various mobile fidelity SACD's, and my opinion is still that JVC XRCD's are way ahead. Maybe my system is not high resolution enough but I have heard well implemented SACDS on megabuck systems and in the same JVC's still stood out, so I have begun buying them in earnest. I have given up on SACDS though not enough available and I am going with CD's all the way - planning to upgrade to Ayon CD1s and gave up on plan to upgrade my SACD player to the new highly praised Marantz SAki. BTW there is a nice article in the latest issue of Absolute Sound on JVC XRCD's - their mastering etc.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[santhosh]

Get hearing aids

Post when you have sufficient time to make meaningful, relevant and complete posts.

 

[thekinge]

Gobble, after having got associated with Genelec, I have had the opportunity to visit many recording studios, and study how they work, and discuss with some good recording / mix engineers. I feel that most of the studios are ill equipped missing some bits of necessary (sometimes expensive) equipment and also at times untrained technicians working on recording / mixing projects.

I firmly believe that a good mix with a good soundstage depends on the phase relationship between all the tracks being mixed down in a studio. If the phase relationship between the tracks is not checked and corrected, result is a largely unpredictable soundstage in different reproduction systems placed in different acoustical environments. Very few recording / mixing engineers check this or do anything about it considering the time, equipment and cumbersome process required to do this properly. This probably explains why 80% of your CD's don't show the quality.

Ha Ha .... I was not referring to phase invert .... that's easy. I was referring to variable phase correction .... that's not easy. Variable phase correction of each and every track after eq is done, is a very complex task. Also the equipment required for this task is very expensive and the time and patience to do it is very consuming. And finally is the customer willing to pay for that many more studio hours for this process? Our good indian recording engineers can easily do this if the producer / director is willing to pay for the extra equipment and expensive man hours a good engineer requires. Question is, how many projects can afford it? Not too many if you ask the recording / mixing industry. Most producers / directors want to have the mix completed in the minimum studio hours unfortunately with such compromises

So, am I right in saying that one does not need to spend on very transparent / resolving equipment if his listening involves mostly Indian music? They should be happy with a budget level setup since the quality of recording is going to be very average anyway?

 

[gobble]

So, am I right in saying that one does not need to spend on very transparent / resolving equipment if his listening involves mostly Indian music? They should be happy with a budget level setup since the quality of recording is going to be very average anyway?

I would say yes to a degree. In the last one year I have been conducting personal research by buying any arbitrary CD of any carnatic trained composer who is trying his hand on fusion light music influenced by western style groups. I now have maybe 50 to 70 CDs waitingto be given away - I just need to sort them. Either the music is bad or the recording is .. usually the music is bad on top of a bad recording :lol: (No wonder Carnatic purists loathe fusion music and call it gimmickry)

I am guessing best wud be to find a tube power and overdrive it to mask the floor noise or deficiencies in the CDs but keep the CDP and pre to a decent budget one to enjoy the beauty of classical Indian style when it shines through. Also the recording quality makes it not worth investing in a cost of a high end stereo speaker pair. For example I would not invest more than what I have in my speakers so far to listen to Indian recorded music. Now a single-driver mono DIY speaker with a DIY tube power amp is what I am aiming at to listen to Indian recordings on a daily basis.



Cheers

 

[asliarun]

Hi,

A lot of the previous comments have gone over my head. Probably haven't heard good equipment yet.

Per my basic understanding, in the case of many amplifiers and systems, soundstage often suffers because of of the varying impedance of the speakers/drivers, due to which the drivers suddenly start demanding more current from the amplifiers which the amplifier is unable to provide "in a jiffy". Mostly (as per my understanding), this is because the drivers are putting in a lot more effort to reproduce the lower frequencies which need a lot more energy because they're more diffused due to their longer wavelengths so they end up filling the room instead of the "half space" or listening area that higher frequencies are more easily able to "beam" into.

This is also why many power amplifiers benefit from having high capacity capacitors in the input side which act as a stored reservoir of energy that are able to instantly provide a burst of current as needed by the speakers. Hence, a robust current source or strong current amplifier often ends up resulting in a good soundstage as the frequency reproduction remains consistent and robust even in stressful audio circumstances (lots of mixed frequencies, lots of bass).

Can anyone please comment on this if this is right or wrong? I ask because I haven't read this in a book, this is based on my patchwork understanding, and I am not sure if I am right or wrong.

 

[iaudio]

Post when you have sufficient time to make meaningful, relevant and complete posts.

+1 to that.

 

[arj]

for indian recordings especially most classical music which are cooked up in pretty bad studios, forgiving systems may be a better option. Resolving systems will drive you away from the music.

tehre are some recordings by the Smithsonian and other labels of known folks like Zakir/ ravishakar which are good. almost all recordings by Chanda Dhara are pretty good

 

[sameer kumar]

For 4 months I parked my Dynaudio Audience 122 in every possible place in the room.I was moving them around at least once a day.Tried moving them closer and nearer to side walls.Plugged the ports with foam plugs,tightened and loosened spikes and once in desperation removed the spikes.Changed amp/cd player/inter connects.Nothing worked.With the Vienna Acoustic I simply went with the accompanying manual on placement---firing down the length of the room,15% distance from the side walls,70% between the speakers.Hint of a toe-in.They sound so good that I have never given placement a thought again.Moral of the story.With the right speakers everything else falls into place.

True. My Emerald Physics speakers deliver very good soundstage in an untreated mid size room. The soundstage is wide and the speakers disappear.They image extremely well. If I walk around the room the soundstage and image stays stable just like a live soundstage.

 

[corElement]

Post when you have sufficient time to make meaningful, relevant and complete posts.

+1 to that.

I'm sorry if noone got the pun however it was a meaningful relevant and complete post to me. I'll take your advice regarding posting if I ever have any sufficient time for complete and relevant posts.

 

[malvai]

I'm sorry if noone got the pun however it was a meaningful relevant and complete post to me. I'll take your advice regarding posting if I ever have any sufficient time for complete and relevant posts.

well dude, it wasn't technically a pun, and if it was meant to be funny, it was in very poor taste.

It mocks many people's efforts and investment in creating just the right sound(stage).

Sure ear's can be cleaned, but so can bad humor.

 

[square_wave]

The recording :sad:
unfortunately the recording engineer is the true artist and for "Reality" need to know exactly what he had in mind...which is the main problem
Everything else is either make-believe or delusions of an active audiophile mind

In my personal experience the placement of the speakers ie Toe in, distance from back and side walls and some kind of a treatment to ensure reflections are dissipated or absorbed make great soundstages (Real or make believe).

problem is every component including ICs (maybe speaker cables make the least impact) impact the stage.
. but of course there are some who dont believe a soundstage is not that important as long as it is formed between the speakers and each instrument is spatially distinguishable

Completely agree with Arj here. Two things that affect soundstage the most are the following:

- Recording and placement of loudspeakers in the room.

- The next is loudspeaker design. A badly designed loudspeaker due to its uneven frequency response and bad dispersion characteristics can muddy your sound stage.

If all three of the above are taken care of, you will achieve a pretty decent sound stage. All else like cables, amps, source affects the soundstage to a certain extent but not of much consequence. They all affect some other aspects which are critical to make music though.

Huge soundstage is an often quoted quality in reproduced music. What one should look for is accurate sound staging rather than a huge one. Some recordings have large sound-staging while others may have a narrow one. I have seen some loudspeakers striving to create larger than life soundstages for every recording that is played. They are inaccurate loudspeakers designed to wow the inexperienced listener.

 

[suri]

So, am I right in saying that one does not need to spend on very transparent / resolving equipment if his listening involves mostly Indian music? They should be happy with a budget level setup since the quality of recording is going to be very average anyway?

i listened to "RAJNEETI" - indian music -

excellent recording - "accurate" sound- staging (i really would not know how the original recording venue was located and arranged - but for this kind of "mixed" "synthetic" music- separation of voices and instruments - and percussion- is enough to validate accuracy).

indian music recording is coming of age - just like it's commerce! - and i am sure, that you will (soon) need a high end system - to realize the indian music composer's intention.

 

[arj]

just like it's commerce! - and i am sure, that you will (soon) need a high end system - to realize the indian music composer's intention.

Amen to that. just hope Mp3s dont drag it down

 

[iaudio]

I'm sorry if noone got the pun however it was a meaningful relevant and complete post to me. I'll take your advice regarding posting if I ever have any sufficient time for complete and relevant posts.

Core, We have been hanging out on this forum for some time, and the post was not something in line with what I have seen from you. If you meant it in humor, fine, but I think the humor was lost somewhere.
Sorry for the OT.

Square wave, good point you have made. But even on recording with a narrow sound stage, shouldn't the instrument separation and 'airiness' be there or should it be less?

 

[malvai]

i listened to "RAJNEETI" - indian music -

excellent recording - "accurate" sound- staging (i really would not know how the original recording venue was located and arranged - but for this kind of "mixed" "synthetic" music- separation of voices and instruments - and percussion- is enough to validate accuracy).

indian music recording is coming of age - just like it's commerce! - and i am sure, that you will (soon) need a high end system - to realize the indian music composer's intention.

Suri, some Indian composers are truly quite fanatical... I think almost any soundtrack by Rehman or Shankar, Ehsaan & Loy is nicely done... restricted only by some amount of scrimping by Indian studios!

but, despite everything - WORLD CLASS!

 

[rikhav]

Suri, some Indian composers are truly quite fanatical... I think almost any soundtrack by Rehman or Shankar, Ehsaan & Loy is nicely done... restricted only by some amount of scrimping by Indian studios!

but, despite everything - WORLD CLASS!

Add Kailash Kher to the list. Albums released by him and also Bollywood movies in which he has given music. He has given music in Dasvadaniya if i am not wrong
Also his latest album which is on Sony Music is mastered quiet well