Creation of a Huge Sound-Stage.

[ajay124]

I don't listen to film music,but whenever I come across a track by Vishal Bhardwaj I feel it is special.Recently Dil To Baccha Hai!Baadlon se kat kat ke from Satya is my favorite film track!Vishal's music sounds excellent on a good set up.Don't much care for the music of AR Rehman.Gimme Vishal or RD/SD Burman anyday.

 

[santhosh]

I'm sorry if noone got the pun however it was a meaningful relevant and complete post to me.

I did not get the pun, but did see a tinge of sarcasm, which may not have been intended. My bad maybe.

I'll take your advice regarding posting if I ever have any sufficient time for complete and relevant posts.

Thanks corElement. It may be fashionable to type one-liners, but they do not always express your thoughts clearly.

PS: Sorry for the OT.

 

[square_wave]

Core, We have been hanging out on this forum for some time, and the post was not something in line with what I have seen from you. If you meant it in humor, fine, but I think the humor was lost somewhere.
Sorry for the OT.

Square wave, good point you have made. But even on recording with a narrow sound stage, shouldn't the instrument separation and 'airiness' be there or should it be less?

If the recording is not done correctly, there will be no airiness or separation of instruments. You cannot change what is not there in the source !

 

[arj]

If the recording is not done correctly, there will be no airiness or separation of instruments. You cannot change what is not there in the source !

I doubt whether any recording will be done with a narrow soundstage no matter how bad the recording engineer (OR it is a Mono)

Soundstage width can be "changed" by toe in if that is more important..but it could also change the tonal quality depending on the dispersion characteristic of the drivers.. in my case it is the high frequency which gets relatively subdued.

 

[rajuwaste]

ARR Studio

 

[moktan]

it has been a real education to read the posts in this thread..don't know how i missed it earlier..
however i still have a very basic doubt..if by soundstaging we mean whether the canvas of sound that emanates from our system replicates the actual physical placement of the various protagonists of the musical project..(drum at the back, bass guitarist on left...etc)..then how do we extend this concept to most modern studio recording where the music may have been contrived artificially in layers, over a period of time ..by maybe even the same artist...
my foolish query is this..apart from live recordings..wouldn't it be an artifice in a track that has been canned in a studio..
one more thing..i think one needs to close his eyes and have his imagination working overtime to create the illusion of a soundstage..because i believe this concept is as much visual as it is aural...
sorry if i may have betrayed my ignorance about what soundstage really is...but this is what i sincerely feel about it...

 

[arj]

Moktan, you have hit the nail on the head.

thats what the post above on the Recorder Engineer playing GOD meant

eg ARRs music where he has played most instruments is all put together by him and artificially placed during creation of the master in various 3D coordinates.

 

[moktan]

Moktan, you have hit the nail on the head.

thats what the post above on the Recorder Engineer playing GOD meant

eg ARRs music where he has played most instruments is all put together by him and artificially placed during creation of the master in various 3D coordinates.

thanks ..i always thought this was a magic trick..now the question is whether our system has it in it to 'notice' this 'sleight of hand'..
i wouldn't lose much sleep over it however..

 

[arj]

well the idea is not really that. as Murali has said above, if you use the right reference CDs and are able to get the setting right such that the image formed is correct. you can be assured that you have set up the system right. it is just a tuning thing to get it optimized.
of course doing that right at the expense of getting your frequency response and/or tonal quality wrong of course would be climbing up the wrong tree:lol: (IMHO)

 

[moktan]

thanks..even without the reference cds, but an active and fertile imagination i can conjure up the relative positions of the various players..it is when the clash of the cymbals in a kurt elling piece splashes through both the speakers that i sometimes wonder whether this sound staging thing is a good or a bad thing....meaning sound wise the sweep of the cymbals cutting through the breadth of the room may be great as far as 'effects' are concerned but positionally that is not what would be happening soundwise in a stage performance isn't it..
of course i may be wrong...

 

[Pandamaudio]

So, am I right in saying that one does not need to spend on very transparent / resolving equipment if his listening involves mostly Indian music? They should be happy with a budget level setup since the quality of recording is going to be very average anyway?

Oh no! Don't ever compromise with reproduction equipment. Infact any compromised equipment will deteriorate the reproduction of a bad recording / mix even further. Its not like a poor soundstage will render the song / music useless. Even if the soundstage is not accurate, there are many other things in the song that make it beautiful, like the lyrics, tune, beat, rhythm, mood, instrument texture and the performance. You could love the song even for all these things and enjoy it if you wanted to, even if the soundstage was compromised. But after the released song becomes a hit, I only wish the same artists / producers / directors & record / film companies could use some of the profits to rework the project with technical finesse for the beauty and love of it. That rarely happens in India!

Nice to see a lot of posts and discussions about the recording and mixing process. That's really where a lot can be done to improve the soundstage

 

[arj]

thanks..even without the reference cds, but an active and fertile imagination i can conjure up the relative positions of the various players..it is when the clash of the cymbals in a kurt elling piece splashes through both the speakers that i sometimes wonder whether this sound staging thing is a good or a bad thing....meaning sound wise the sweep of the cymbals cutting through the breadth of the room may be great as far as 'effects' are concerned but positionally that is not what would be happening soundwise in a stage performance isn't it..
of course i may be wrong...

well..active and fertile imagination is always helpful but isnt it better if you dont need to worry about that and just listen to music knowing you are listening to it the best way you can ?
that is after all the expectation from the hobby, ie extract all that you can get out of the Media and then reproduce it the best way you can ...and if you could do that with no additional $$$ ie by very good placement..that is good VFM.
soundstaging can be taken as an indicator of all components quality and their synergy as a system together with the Room. an usually when you get that perfected with reference CDs most of the other stuff also falls into place

 

[sud98]

Does an equipment like this help in creating soundstaging and it costs only 150 USD?


BEHRINGER VIRTUALIZER PRO DSP2024P
High-Performance 24-Bit Multi-Engine Effects Processor

* 71 breathtaking new algorithmsunbelievable true stereo effects
* Wave-adaptive Virtual Room reverb algorithms for natural reverb and delay
* Awesome modulation, dynamic, psychoacoustic and EQ algorithms
* Authentic amp simulation, distortion and special effects
* 11 effect combinations with selectable serial / parallel configuration
* Up to 7 adjustable parameters plus 2-band EQ per effect
* 24-bit A/D and D/A converters with 64/128-times oversampling
* True stereo processing for realistic channel separation in stereo image
* 100 factory presets plus 100 user memory locations
* Extensive MIDI implementation
* Accurate LED level meters for perfect level setting and optimum performance
* Servo-balanced XLR and " TRS inputs and outputs
* High-quality components and exceptionally rugged construction ensure long life
* Conceived and designed by BEHRINGER Germany

 

[gobble]

Adding to Moktans comment, I had the opportunity to visit a studio last year and meet an artiste. The recording studio was very small- not enough for a group of musicians to sit or stand. What was explained to me was that each musician comes to the studio per his convenience and records his part solo, and the final mix is done towards the end. The rhythm and programming is of course discussed an practised in intimate detail by all musicians before hand. The all share some programming tracks and practise at home correspond over phone and mail when getting together physically is impossible most of the times. Since all the musicians have a decade and longer musical training and experience and a common vocabulary it works out quite well.

But my only grouse - and I have many albums I am certain were recorded this way, is that the music turns out a bit sterile without that enthusiasm and exuberance felt in a creation where everyones together in the same room. They still do manage very well to portray "bhakti" and inner Spiritual attainment that underlines the greatness of Indian music over western forms.

Coming to the issue of soundstage- so it actually turns out that many of the cd's I listen to are actually recordings where all the musicians are sitting in exactly the same spot in the studio. But I am able to "discern" some lateral width in positioning of instruments, and then sometimes not!! Since many other recordings have demostrably proven that my setup is capable of a reasonable soundstage I don't worry about it or nit-pick with electrical signals pinching soundstage etc.



Sent from my iPod touch

 

[arj]

Since many other recordings have demostrably proven that my setup is capable of a reasonable soundstage I don't worry about it or nit-pick with electrical signals pinching soundstage etc.

its a very personal thing on what you may want to look for from your system... eg the old naim/Linn school of music .."FlatEarthers" only worried about PRAT...and soundstage was last on their minds.

 

[thekinge]

"FlatEarthers" only worried about PRAT...

Could you please explain this in more detail for laymen like me?

 

[arj]

Does an equipment like this help in creating soundstaging and it costs only 150 USD?


BEHRINGER VIRTUALIZER PRO DSP2024P
High-Performance 24-Bit Multi-Engine Effects Processor

* 71 breathtaking new algorithmsunbelievable true stereo effects
* Wave-adaptive Virtual Room reverb algorithms for natural reverb and delay
* Awesome modulation, dynamic, psychoacoustic and EQ algorithms
* Authentic amp simulation, distortion and special effects
* 11 effect combinations with selectable serial / parallel configuration
* Up to 7 adjustable parameters plus 2-band EQ per effect
* 24-bit A/D and D/A converters with 64/128-times oversampling
* True stereo processing for realistic channel separation in stereo image
* 100 factory presets plus 100 user memory locations
* Extensive MIDI implementation
* Accurate LED level meters for perfect level setting and optimum performance
* Servo-balanced XLR and " TRS inputs and outputs
* High-quality components and exceptionally rugged construction ensure long life
* Conceived and designed by BEHRINGER Germany

yup you can...but you will lose out somewhere else
1. If you use a Digital out from your transport, then you are using the DAC of the behringer which is just OK
2. If you are using an analogue out of your CDP then this is going to first convert it to Digital (ADC)..do its thing and then convert it back to a Analogue (DAC)..so it s double compromise.
Finally behringers accept only balanced connections (it also accepts Optical for digital in and out) so your equipment must have those interfaces.

al in all..DSP goes against the principle of audio ie of getting the best out of the CD as it is...but that can be argued otherwise as well.

 

[thevortex]

Both Odyssey & Arj have answered.

I have limited experience with this kind of adapter. The ones available locally are a brand called Sunrize and IMO do more harm than good. The cardas ones on the website seem great but at great prices. Neutrik is sometimes available and seems a VFM solution if one HAS TO USE AN ADAPTER.
What I would do is re terminate the cable (provided it has 3 conductors in the first place) to my specification.

Basically in the XLR to RCA the adapter is shorting the + & - and the third wire goes to the body (ground) of the RCA. Seems fine But the other way seems avoidable to my mind.

Shridhar, actually Jim Marker was using these adapters when he had the Emerald Physics. I believe the behringer only accepted XLR and all his cables were single ended. Now I dont know how much that degraded the sound.

Rgds

PS Sorry for the off topic :- Vortex do u think Federer will retain his Wimbledon crown? Its not just yesterdays match. The feeling I get is that the guy is somewhat losing the motivation / Drive. I hope Andy Roddick wins this one as I think he deserves it.

Thanks Odyssey, Arj and Dinyaar for the answers. I have got the Neutrik connectors. Lets see how they work.

Off topic again - Dinyaar - we must catch up on sporting action man. I loved watching England trounce the Aussies again yesterday . About Federer, there has been a lot written and said about that first round match with Falla. I am only sad that much credit is not being given to that left hander. He played tremendously well. That just showcases the depth that is there in men's tennis today. I dont think Federer is falling apart or anything like that. To come back like that against Falla required a steely heart and not to mention, special skills.

If its a final against Nadal, I would not blame people for not backing Federer. Personally I will back Federer.

 

[thevortex]

yup you can...but you will lose out somewhere else
1. If you use a Digital out from your transport, then you are using the DAC of the behringer which is just OK
2. If you are using an analogue out of your CDP then this is going to first convert it to Digital (ADC)..do its thing and then convert it back to a Analogue (DAC)..so it s double compromise.
Finally behringers accept only balanced connections (it also accepts Optical for digital in and out) so your equipment must have those interfaces.

al in all..DSP goes against the principle of audio ie of getting the best out of the CD as it is...but that can be argued otherwise as well.

I have been reading up quite a bit about the use of equalization and I am not so sure now that it is against the "principle" of audio to use it .

Am curious - do you have first hand experience with one of the Behringer units?

 

[unleash_me]

"FlatEarthers" only worried about PRAT...

Could you please explain this in more detail for laymen like me?

Flat-earthers are people who still believe that the earth is flat, as opposed to globularists.

PRaT stands for Pace, Rythm and Timing

Go figure!