Denon 1513 and Wharfedale MS 100 Speaker

[ksona]

Last week I brought Denon 1513 and Wharfedale MS 100 Speaker after asking this thread>

Initially, I started with the idea of buying a Home Theater In A Box from Onkyo.

But thanks to prosenjit of this forum, I thought as the sound quality was a main concern for me, I should go for separates.
I can not accommodate Floorstanders, so bookshelf / satellite was my only option.

For AVR As far my needs are concerned I need to clarify them because the comparison will be based on them.

I like warm sound as long as it does not cause ear fatigue and also need an AVR which can create big sound-stage. I like bass, as long as it stays low and don't cloud the mid-range.

1. My requirement is 80% Movie and 10% TV and 10% Music.
2. My room size is 12X14
3. I will be using satellites or bookshelves, NO floorstanders
4. Network features and Apple compatibility is not required
5. Zone 1 Zone 2 is not mandatory but is a welcome feature
6. USB playback not required.

After extensive audition I finalized Denon 1513. Denon 1612 was out of stock.
In this limited budget, there was not much competition, Yamaha 373 is also very good. But in Calcutta Yamaha store uses only Yamaha speakers so the full potential of their speakers is never revealed. So I Could not audition Yamaha and Wharfedale together.

Speakers >

My shortlisted options were >

1. Boston Acoustics Soundware XS ---24,000.00
2. Wharfedale Moviestar MS-100 MS 100, ---- 33,000.00
3. Polk Blackstone TL1600 ------ 35000.00
4. Tannoy HTS101 -----------------44,000.00
5. Energy Speakers RC-Micro 5.1 ----------------- 42000/- (only 5 % discount was offered on MRP)

Here are the audition results :


Boston Acoustics Soundware XS --- No one stocks them in Kolkata !

Wharfedale Moviestar MS-100 HCP --- exceptional sound: Full range drivers are superb.
During the whole audition process, I was looking for the depth of sound which will let you forget about your room. Wharfedale Moviestar MS-100 recreates that depth with ease.

Bluray Used : AVATAR : The scene when Jake lost his way in the forest and was attacked by ferocious dogs (!) at night, the barking of animals and the noises of night creatures recreates atmosphere with exciting vibe. The barkings and noises move around you seamlessly.
The surround channels seamless integration will let you forget about their position.

Also watched Transformers Revenge Of The Fallen the final desert war. The left-right front to back surround effects were full of precision and clarity. The bullets travel
around the listening position without creating any gap.

For Bass : I used the DVD of the Saving Private Ryan opening scene. The incessant gunfire and close-in and far away explosions effects were brutally reproduced with sub. The sub hits your chest not ears, thats what good subs do. It will make you breathless in action scenes. For a decent size room (12X15) it has enough power to rattle your window panes. A note about subwoofer, you must keep the speaker setting to "small" in AVR and set the crossover frequency to 150 in order to achieve this bass. Depending on room size, you also have to increase bass volumn from sub. Don't place them against wall, they have bass ports in rear. It will sound boomy.

For Treble : The upper frequency sounds sweet and composed, never bright. Shattering window panes and gun shots never sound harsh.

Dialogues : Clean, without any hint of boxiness. During chaotic war scenes the dialogues were comprehensible.

Music : Good, The overall sound is very good. While it may not sound as good as a Wharfedale diamond, it never makes your music sound poor.
The sound is clean, bass in not bloated and mid range is clear.
The music is better than Onkyo 3400/ 3500.
I have so far used only mp3 , yet to test the result with original CDs.


Polk Blackstone TL1600 ------------- Not auditioned

Tannoy HTS101 -------------- Sound is very god. But to my ears, they sound a bit laid-back. The subwoofer is very good. The biggest plus point was the tweeters. They really add shine to the sound. But while watching Saving Private Ryan, the sound seemed a bit distanced. Its difficult to explain. Wharfedale has a very aggressive and bold sound while Tannoy offers a more relaxed sound. There was a concert DVD played on the system. The Tannoys proved more musical than Wharfedale. But It was out of my budget.

Energy Speakers RC-Micro 5.1 ----------------- Extremely capable speakers hold back by a old AVR and stubborn salesman.
The Onkyo dealer in Kolkata used a Onkyo 308 and played RA ONE
I havn't watched RA ONE as a movie, so I don't know which part of the movie was playing. But it was an action scene with SRK vs the villain.
The sound was warm, extremely poised and beautiful.
But the speakers did not shine and seems low on resolution due to the onkyo 308. If we pair this speaker with a better receiver like Onkyo 309, it will be better. The demo sounded restrained and muddy. I won't blame the speakers. But again the dealer was not bulging from 40000/-.

Now, one thing I must mention about the dealer from I have bought my system. I bought my system from :

Harmony Audio, 13, Shyama Charan Smriti Tirtha Road, P.O. New Alipur (opposite Chirantani Club). Mr. Vasudeo Jagwani 983008504.

Mr. Vasudeo was very co-operative and open to various suggestion and he was keen to know the customer requirement. He explains every aspect of the system and never tries to hide a systems limitations. I must thank him for his sincerity and humbleness.
During my 3 visits I never mate the owner of Promises, and the sales-man of Digital Acoustics was stupid enough to call me greedy during negotiation.... I clearly saw the frustration in the face of Promises and Digital Acoustics salesman when they face a knowledgeable customer and can't fox and filch him easily.


Now the pics >

There is no USB infront.......

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Cost cutting --- spring clips.....

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The connectors are very good quality.

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compact and stylish, unique design offers tilted position in case your table is low.

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The high gloss finish is exquisite.


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The wood and built quality is superb, the wooden box weights 8.1 kg

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dual ported..... crossover adjustment......volume knob.....

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200mm long throw bass driver will try to throw you out of your chair...

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Wall brackets are included along with speakers....

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Pretty messy with wires .... Just a temporary set up... need to do wire management.

Thanks all hifivians who has helped me .......

Credits : prosenjit , haisaikat , baijuxavior , madbullram, Nero9 , avidyarthy ,
koushik, bpranay's ....

Thanks et Merci beaucoup....

Hi
Today I auditioned the following

1. Denon1312 Amp with Pollk TL600 speakers
2. Denon1312 Amp with Polk TSi200
3. Wharfedale Damond 10.1

My observations are

1. Polktl600 is ok but not very impressive to my ears.
2. Polk TSi200 is much bettr interms of quality and sharpness of sound.
3. Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 stands out among thee two for me.

In polk treble and hiss sound is more than the bass efect and my consultant told me that it is becuae of "silver line speaker..... something" and offcourse he is from Wharfedale dealer.

So I am confused slightly whether to go with Diamond 10.1 for now or with DX1HCP..

Can someone help me with your suggestion....Thanks....

 

[angynagpal]

Hi Rupam,
I am also very keen to buy MC 100 speakers from Whaferdale (your short review is a big reason based on which I have almost decided to go for it). If you dont mind, could you provide a little more detailed review on the product, as I am not able to find any place around me where I can demo them.

Usage for me would be 70% movies, 15% music (but whenever I do listen I want it to feel awesome and a big soundstage) 15% gaming. An interesting line in your review was that you forget about the position of the speakers. This is very important for me. I find it very very distracting when I know where the sound is coming from (something which bose did pretty well in the demo). So, did you notice the same thing at your place as well or was it just at the showroom??

I am looking for these speakers for my living room area which is in an L shape. The TV and speakers would be in horizontal line of the 'L' structure, and the dimensions of this area is 11X7 ft (7ft is the distance from tv to wall).

Thanks in advance !!!!

 

[Rupam]

Using it for 1 month. Sofar I have not found any short comings of this system. This will be a parfect system for your room. Please read this review here > AV MAX_Wharfedale MS-100 HCP_March 2012-1.pdf

I have tested the system with orginal CDs and they sound very good. Sound is fuller, richer with nice warmth. The bass does not overpower the vocal and the treble always stays focused.

Keep minimum 5 foot gap the front LR speakers and place them at ear height. Surrounds should be placed at 1 foot higher than ear level preferably at the same distance as front ( ie 5-6 foots).

From where you are trying to buy it?

 

[angynagpal]

Using it for 1 month. Sofar I have not found any short comings of this system. This will be a parfect system for your room. Please read this review here > AV MAX_Wharfedale MS-100 HCP_March 2012-1.pdf

I have tested the system with orginal CDs and they sound very good. Sound is fuller, richer with nice warmth. The bass does not overpower the vocal and the treble always stays focused.

Keep minimum 5 foot gap the front LR speakers and place them at ear height. Surrounds should be placed at 1 foot higher than ear level preferably at the same distance as front ( ie 5-6 foots).

From where you are trying to buy it?

Thanks a lot for your reply !!! For the placement, I had already got the wires installed when I was re-furbishing the house, and they have been placed to accomodate the front speakers 6-7 ft apart and at ear height (might be a little, 1/2 ft, higher), while the rears are a little higher than ear level (around 1.5ft higher).

Most probably I will go for the group buy, as that looks like a good price to me (hope online buying is not a problem).

 

[Rupam]

No problem. you can buy from Hifimart. Their price is more competitive than any other store. and don't worry they are very reliable. I have bought some interconnects from them, they ship super fast.

 

[angynagpal]

No problem. you can buy from Hifimart. Their price is more competitive than any other store. and don't worry they are very reliable. I have bought some interconnects from them, they ship super fast.

Do you feel the sound is a little Tinny/boxy/compressed from this speakerset?

 

[Rupam]

Do you feel the sound is a little Tinny/boxy/compressed from this speakerset?

No not at all, its just the opposite. the sound in very very believable and larger than ordinary HTib of Onkyo Denon Sony.
In fact thats why I went for this system. You really need to demo this system.

 

[angynagpal]

No not at all, its just the opposite. the sound in very very believable and larger than ordinary HTib of Onkyo Denon Sony.
In fact thats why I went for this system. You really need to demo this system.

I wish I could ....cant find a single showroom that has these speakers for demo !!!!

 

[MoorthyA]

Just wonder why no body recommendsFocal Sib & Cub3 which is very reasonably priced and very high in spec.....

it's around 36K in ProFx

 

[Sukhi Gill]

Thanks Rupam for suggesting me the cable, I will get it soon with Yamaha 373 from HiFi Mart and as you used 16 gauge cable I am having spare roll of Chord leyline n will use it.

 

[Rupam]

Just wonder why no body recommendsFocal Sib & Cub3 which is very reasonably priced and very high in spec.....

it's around 36K in ProFx

This is apparently a phased out model. Pro FX is clearing some old stocks. Kolkata Pro Fx does not have it.

 

[vinay]

Rupam,

Please tell me how does it help to keep surround speakers 1 feet higher then the front's.

My brother is installing tomorrow 5.1 speakers therefore i put up this query.

V.

Keep minimum 5 foot gap the front LR speakers and place them at ear height. Surrounds should be placed at 1 foot higher than ear level preferably at the same distance as front ( ie 5-6 foots).

 

[angynagpal]

Rupam,

Please tell me how does it help to keep surround speakers 1 feet higher then the front's.

My brother is installing tomorrow 5.1 speakers therefore i put up this query.

V.

Even I would like to know that!! Also, should the rear speakers in 5.1 be facing the listener's ear or behind it or should they be facing each other. Also, do the rear speakers need to be equidistant from the listener's position? Should rears be wider than the fronts?

 

[Santy]

Ideally speaking, all speakers should form a circle with the listener at the centre and placed at ear level.

Sub placement is heavily impacted by the room, so we need to experiment.

 

[angynagpal]

Ideally speaking, all speakers should form a circle with the listener at the centre and placed at ear level.

Sub placement is heavily impacted by the room, so we need to experiment.

Thanks !!

My next question is, does audeyssey compensate for incorrect placement of the speaker if we compare it with the diagram.

 

[Santy]

Thanks !!

My next question is, does audeyssey compensate for incorrect placement of the speaker if we compare it with the diagram.

The problem of placement usually is with the surrounds; in majority of HT setups, its difficult to sit in the centre of the room. We tend to put the seat towards the rear wall which means surround speakers are much closer to us than main speakers.

Coming to your question, answer is Yes and No.
Yes because YPAO/ Audyssey can adjust the timing of the speakers depending on the distance so that sound from all speakers reach your ears at the same time.
No because the perceived spatial movement of surround sound is better when there is adequate space between the listener and the surround speaker.

For example if you are seeing a helicopter moving towards rear left (say at 45, the sound is mixed in such away that the centre, front left and rear left have sound fading through them proportionately giving a perception of moving sound.

If the surrounds are too close like I have illustrated below, the helicopter will appear going from front to back (more like) which is not happening in the visual.

 

[angynagpal]

The problem of placement usually is with the surrounds; in majority of HT setups, its difficult to sit in the centre of the room. We tend to put the seat towards the rear wall which means surround speakers are much closer to us than main speakers.

Coming to your question, answer is Yes and No.
Yes because YPAO/ Audyssey can adjust the timing of the speakers depending on the distance so that sound from all speakers reach your ears at the same time.
No because the perceived spatial movement of surround sound is better when there is adequate space between the listener and the surround speaker.

For example if you are seeing a helicopter moving towards rear left (say at 45, the sound is mixed in such away that the centre, front left and rear left have sound fading through them proportionately giving a perception of moving sound.

If the surrounds are too close like I have illustrated below, the helicopter will appear going from front to back (more like) which is not happening in the visual.

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I won't get good enough surround sound then .... Really disappointed to hear that.... My couch is in fact touching the rear wall itself

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[Rupam]

The Logic behind keeping the surrounds higher is that they contain sound effects, which creates the atmosphere. Keeping them at ear level may result in overpowering sound from rear which will ultimately unbalance the sound field. Thats why Dolby recommends placing them "just above ear level", whereas THX recommends "2 feet or higher above the listener.

 

[angynagpal]

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I won't get good enough surround sound then .... Really disappointed to hear that.... My couch is in fact touching the rear wall itself

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Just measured the speaker distance. The distance between the center speaker and the ear level at the primary seating location is 8ft (height is 2ft higher than ear level). The distance between the R/L speaker to the primary seating is also slightly more than 8ft (height is 1.25ft higher than ear level). Distance between the Right and Left speaker is 6ft. Distance between the back wall where the surround speakers would be mounted and the ear is 2ft (couch is touching the back wall but has a broad back), while the height of the surround speakers is 8 inches more than the front speakers and roughly 2ft higher than the ear level (can go a bit higher on these. Lemme know if its better to go even higher). Distance between the surround speakers is 7ft.

Now these distances are not exactly as per the dolby guidelines, but are pretty close to it. So will audyssey be able to take care of these differences? Also will I get decent surround sound with these distances...e.g helicopter moving towards rear left will feel that way???

Here are some pics of the room for your reference:

http://www.hifivision.com/home-thea...n-denon-1713-wharfedale-dx1-8.html#post473751

 

[Santy]

Don't worry too much about speaker placement. What I suggested is for an ideal setup (benefits apparent only on critical listening) but as I mentioned earlier, they are not practically achievable by everyone. Even my surrounds are close to listening position. Doesn't mean that we cannot enjoy the sound. Just sit back and enjoy.