Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speakers?

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

You'll find it easier to evaluate acoustics of this room after setting up
HT system. Room shape can't help you choose a receiver or speakers.

Well, does this mean, regardless of whether or not I have a closed room, I could still get near perfect audio, if I get adjust my room acoustics?

 

[askii2]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Well, does this mean, regardless of whether or not I have a closed room, I could still get near perfect audio, if I get adjust my room acoustics?

I won't use the words near perfect. In spite of an unusual room shape you should be able to get excellent audio.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

I won't use the words near perfect. In spite of an unusual room shape you should be able to get excellent audio.

cool. That is very encouraging for me.

 

[nandac]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

get the avr from the usa. half the time nowadays the customs people simply ignore such things. unless the person bringing in has so much stuff it is not going to attract attention. also i think conventional wisdom is to spend more on electronics than on speakers. though i see a different opinion here.

 

[askii2]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

also i think conventional wisdom is to spend more on electronics than on speakers. though i see a different opinion here.

Conventional wisdom is to spend wisely .

If you look at the budget audio system recommendations from What HiFi magazine, the price points for CD player, integrated amplifier and a pair of speakers are around the same ballpark. Which is where the electronics spend comes to about twice the speaker cost.

For an HT system, the recommended price point for DVD/Blu ray player is much lower than the price points for a receiver or speakers. The price point for lowest end receivers should be lower than speakers. As you go higher, there is an incentive to spend more on a receiver. Spending more on the receiver brings in automatic acoustic measurements and corrections. This usually is more beneficial than the improvements in sound quality from a similar additional spend on speakers. Such a receiver will cost upwards of Rs. 50000.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

So, I went to audition a few HTSs today... I'm gonna a list down my experiences here.

Location: Yamaha and Denon Dealer, Babukhan mall, Hyderabad.
First audition (part1):
Equipment: Receiver: Denon 1911, Surrounds, Sub & Floorstanders : Polk Audio, Hitachi 32" LCD tv. (90w speakers)
Acoustics - A living room setup - not much of balancing done. (not a dedicated HTroom)
Content Played:
Music: Bluray; Eagles - Hotel California
Movies: Bluray; The Dark Knight (Batman entrance scene, Truck chase - these are my fav parts - the background score so haunts me from my 3time watch at the IMAX - I remember every detail of it - so that was my benchmark and you could tell by now that I carried the original bluray for the demo )
Experience:
Music: The track sounded pretty good - I wasn't looking for music coz movies is my first priority.
Movies: The surrounds began sounding good, and the floor standards and the center were doing a good job with dialog clarity. However, In the truck chase scene, this is where my expectations get so high - and I was a little disappointed. The surrounds weren't creating the impact that I wanted. When the truck flips and falls on its back, it creates a huge thud - well, there wasn't enough thud - the sub didn't seem like killing it. Even the batman entrance scene, the background score is meant to take priority in this scene, and the surround wasn't powerful enough for me.
Price: I wasn't given a quote on this.
Rating: 3.5/5 for the receiver, 3/5 for the floorstanders, 2.5/5 for surrounds and 3/5 for the sub and the center, 3/5 for looks.

First Audition (part2):
Equipment: Denon 1911, Kef satellites (front, surround and center) and Kef sub.
Content: Just the Eagles song.
Acoustics: Same as above;
Experience: Kef undoubtedly sounded better than Polk floorstanders! and they were asthetically appealing too. The vocals were sounding pretty amazing, but coz it was just a music bluray, I couldn't judge the sub or the surrounds well.
Price: Kef 5.1 @ 85,000 INR; I guess about 40,000 INR for the receiver.
Rating: 3.5/5 for speakers, 4.5/5 for the looks.

Location: Profx, Babukhan mall, Hyderabad.
Second Audition:
Equipment: Denon's high end receiver (not sure of the model), JVC high end projector, Focal 5.1 (the model that costs you 96lacs!!!!!!!). (250w speakers)
Acoustics: a dedicated HT room with well defined acoustics.
Content: The Dark Knight - truck chase and Orange Telugu movie (bluray songs)
Experience:
Let me start by saying that this experience BLEW ME away. I knew it was going to be big, given that they had recliners for this demo and the room was huge - 28X18 or more. The way the truck chase played - every bit crystal clear - immersive, impressive and immaculate.
In short, it was like watching it in IMAX again, I didn't want to leave that room - It bought a smile to my face and that smile never faded. I don't think there is any point in writing more, hands down - it made everything else look like crap (even the rest of my auditions). Obviously, when you'd spend that kind of money on a 5.1, you'd want it to sound like the best damn thing ever.
Price: Receiver - Beyond 4 lacs, Projector - Beyond 4 lacs, Speakers: 96 lacs. The whole thing probably well over, 1.2 crores.
Rating: 5/5 for everything - nothing beats this one.

Location: Onkyo Store near Greenpark hotel, Begumpet, Hyderabad.
Third Audition:
Equipment: Onkyo 9300THX 7.1 HTS package, an avg 720p projector. (130W speakers)
Acoustics: Dedicated HT room with acoustic balancing : about 14X14 in size.
Content: A DVD with DTS - Kill Bill 1, action scene.
Experience: Great sub, wonderful surrounds and very nice center speaker. I think the fact that two extra surrounds existed (it being a 7.1) helped it a great deal. Unfortunately, they didn't have bluray player on this setup, so I could not compare it with my first few auditions in terms of playing hd content. But, for the content that was played, it was easily the second best pick of the evening (after focal). If I were to complain about one thing, I could only say that it wasn't as good as focal, but then that would be like comparing apples to oranges.. well.. umm..no... that'd be like comparing apples to swollen, stinky oranges! (You could tell how focal ruined my whole evening - damn, why did they have to show me Focal one just for the sake of it!). I don't know if it was the THX or just the overall package, the onkyo HTS sounded pretty good.
Price: 83,000 INR, inclusive of taxes.
Rating: 4/5 overall for the HTS package.

Location: Same As Above
Fourth Audition:
Equipment:
Onkyo TR-608, Hitachi 720p projector, 7.1 (not sure about this one, it starts with E)
Acoustics: Dedicated HT room, well balanced.
Content: My TDK bluray.
Experience: Avg sub, good surrounds, poor center. I could see that Onkyo was doing a fair job as a receiver. But, the speakers ruined this experience for me. The huge thud I was looking for in the truck scene, it was there - but only just about 20% there. Overall, a mediocre experience, nevertheless, better than first audition. (not for audio quality, but for the surrounds and sub and the immersive movie experience.)
Rating: 3.5/5 for the sub and 3/5 for the rest.

Ok. So, now, that I am done with the first round of auditions, (and I didn't get to audition Yamaha, yet!), I guess I have a few conclusions:
1) Onkyo's seem to sound better for movies, while Denon's seem to do well with music.
2) I cannot buy Focal in my lifetime, most likely.
3) My living room has open spaces, so I should be prepared for a huge compromise in sound production. (coz it only sounds that much better with a dedicated room).
4) The onkyo 9300THX seems to be the best of 'em all - and most likely I should buy it, unless, I plan to buy a receiver out of India and get it shipped.

The questions now:
1) Am I correct with my 3rd conclusion?
2) How important is the THX certification? Is this a marketing gimmick? Why does Onkyo offer it at a such a low price, while the Kef's don't have any? The Onkyo store manager himself says that the Kefs are much superior, but with Onkyo you get "VALUE" for money - that one word which tilts my decision in Onkyo's favor a little.
3) The Onkyo 9300 is a yester year model - The AVR on it is nothing special - it has some good inbuilt technologies, but only 4 HDMI ins. It is being sold at as less as 700USD in the usa and close to 1900 USD here in India. Do you think this is a good buy at this price in India?

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

BUMP (Bump My Post)!

 

[askii2]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

While your conclusion 3 is right. I can assure you that you won't be disappointed. Just set the subwoofer level higher than what you'll for a closed room and you should be good to go.

Onkyo will be a good buy. The price is only a little high compared to US as I don't think it's available in the US at $700. Negotiate with the dealer and you may get 10% discount; higher if you are willing to pay cash.

THX certification is certainly not a marketing gimmick. Most important part of THX certification is about ability of equipment to handle dynamics (highs should have enough punch and lows should be clear enough). Many people won't buy HT equipment with THX certification, I personally don't care much.

The best part of Onkyo 9300THX 7.1 HTS package is that it's as good as buying the receiver and speaker setup separately. It's not as if one of them is not selling hence is being given free with the other. If you want to upgrade one of them a few years down the line, you can easily do that.

4 HDMI connections suffice for most people.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

While your conclusion 3 is right. I can assure you that you won't be disappointed. Just set the subwoofer level higher than what you'll for a closed room and you should be good to go.

Thank you. This is very encouraging for me. I must however, add that my audition experiences were definetly better in closed HT rooms and the living room setups had a lot of detail missing - but like you said, a turned up sub could have done a whole lot of good - I guess in my audition, the sub was set to low, I couldn't feel the punch when I should I have - I guess I should go back for another round of audition.

Onkyo will be a good buy. The price is only a little high compared to US as I don't think it's available in the US at $700. Negotiate with the dealer and you may get 10% discount; higher if you are willing to pay cash.

Well, a lot of reviews on amazon quote this price - yes, right now it shows up at like 1000+. This model was introduced exactly one year ago with an introductory price of about 1200USD, I guess. Yes, I guess I should negotiate with the dealer a bit on this.

THX certification is certainly not a marketing gimmick. Most important part of THX certification is about ability of equipment to handle dynamics (highs should have enough punch and lows should be clear enough). Many people won't buy HT equipment with THX certification, I personally don't care much.

Why don't most people buy HT equipment with THX certification? Is it coz it costs more than ones that is not certified or is it that it doesn't matter?

The best part of Onkyo 9300THX 7.1 HTS package is that it's as good as buying the receiver and speaker setup separately. It's not as if one of them is not selling hence is being given free with the other. If you want to upgrade one of them a few years down the line, you can easily do that.

You are correct. If I think about it, getting a receiver from USA and then buying good speakers here will just about cost me the same as buying this HTiB.

4 HDMI connections suffice for most people.

Not denying that. I meant it has 4 - when lot of denons and yamahas have a min of 6. Anyway, 4 connections like you said are good enough for me as well.

Thank you, askii2, I appreciate your suggestion. It has got me close to thinking about buying the HTiB - guess, I will decide in a day or two after talking to my HT consultant.

 

[prankey]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

My recommendation - Today's AVRs are far more sophisticated than the yesteryear's integrated/discrete Amps and hence its best to choose an AVR based on your FEATURE's requirements. My personal low end favorite are Yamaha's lowest end HDMI capable ones. Even if you don't get DTS MA, they can well be used to reproduce PCM 5.1 coming from your BR player capable of decoding MA. If you want upscaled videos, you may want to consider their high end V667's which are my favorites for a top of the line solution. I don't see much benefit in going for a higher than a V667 model unless you encounter an issue with V667 which is rectified on a higher end model from Yamaha or Onkyo (I consider only these two brands for AVRs)

Talking of their amplification, as I speak from my experience you are right on the "sound waves" which will be near perfect and spending more on bigger, larger BRANDED speakers will make MUCH MORE DIFFERENCE in quality than spending more on AVRs.

I see that you are more keen on satellite speakers and I really don't see much competition from those from Bose. However, Bose do not make any impact when compared to good quality towers like what I am using. I am VERY satisfied with the sound I get from my towers and subwoofer is not really used much other than to reproduce .1 frequencies with okay SQ. I may go for a better subwoofer when I feel I want to spend in them. As of now, my setup is very satisfying for ANY listening mode as long as I get atleast PCM Audio directly fed to my AVR.

While I do have troubles from the room acoustics of my living room (more in terms of jarring of wooden racks, etc.), I still get excellent quality from my speakers and not much bothered other than to reduce the jarring noise (no issue of echo in my living room).

As most of the AVRs manufactured by Yamaha (I term them best for a low cost AVRs), Onkyo and Denon (I don't consider Denon in my list as they are over priced and have very prominent sound signature which makes Music sound better by compromising the flatness of sound and have more THD than Yamaha and Onkyo).

Speaker's sensitivity matters most when we talk of power output! My Pioneer towers are more than TWICE as loud than my cheapest Yamaha (though I bought Pioneer second hand at the same cost I bought Yamaha). So effectively I get more than twice as much "power" output from Pioneer with very strong bass signature which otherwise even the most powerful AVR of today may not match!

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Fedexp.

Let me try to simplify things for you a little.

For good audio setup, there are 3 things needed. Good room, good speakers and good receiver. More than anything, the room plays a huge role in how any of the speakers will sound. If your room has all the plain walls, the reflections will be muddying up the sound a lot. There are two ways to do this. Do room treatment by putting absorbers/diffusers. There are different ways/techniques to do it, and a lot depends upon the aesthetics cause this is your living room as well. For living room, more things you have on the wall the better is diffusion. That's one way to achieve it.

Then we come to the next part - Speakers. We obviously need good speakers. One characteristic for speakers is how flat is the frequency response across the listening range, usually between 60 Hz to 20KHz. A higher efficiency/sensitivity speakers need less power/watts from receiver to produce louder sound. Any speakers that are not going to exaggerate bass or higher frequencies will be a good start. Another point that we tend to overlook is how is the off-axis frequency response. Meaning if you are off-center, how the speakers sound. Most of the sound stage experience come from these and then the proper placement. Again, this is a big topic.

That brings us to the last one - receiver. It's the case of garbage in, garbage out. There are two basic things in the receiver that has the most bearing on how the speakers will sound.
1. First is the Digital to Analog section. Almost all our sources are digital now, so the D/A converter section of the receiver means a lot. Burr Brown D/A is considered very good quality, so look for the receivers that has Burr Brown at least.
2. Amplifier section - This is very important. Look for a receiver which has enough amp power to drive your speakers. Look beyond the rated specs. Many times, manufacturer's list the watts/channel but they are not rated at simultaneously run. If you run the multi-channel speakers, the the power needed for driving speakers will be reduced. In those cases, the amp clips the signal and lose clarity. A 80 watts/channel is good place to start but read up reviews too.
3. Since we cannot treat all our rooms, one way is to do is room correction. Many receivers come with Audessey Room correction. There are different levels of it and its really a choice. But sometimes Audessey does do a good job at correcting common issues of rooms.
4. The modern speakers can matrix 2 channel/5 channels to 5.1/7.1. If you want to do the matrixing, then look for receivers which is Dolby PLIIx/z. PLIIz can do 9.1/9.2.

I would also suggest looking for a dedicated, good subwoofer. If you want good slam, you would need atleast 15" + sub. I have a 13x20 room like you, with 5.5 ft opening to another room. I use two 18" sub woofers. For subs, look for 20Hz to 120 Hz frequency response. If you want room shaking performance, then 10Hz to 20Hz response would matter a lot.

That's what comes to mind so far. Hope this helps.

 

[prankey]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

You are right - but, when you go buy the same model at a local store in India - you pay atleast 25% more than what you'd pay for shipping+ duty + transformer. (Yamaha rxv667 - shopyourworld.com price - 28k+2k stepdown transfomer, Local store rate - 45,000!!!!!). So, What do you get in return?
1) Stores that wouldn't have the model you want on audition.
2) Sales people at these stores with half the knowledge and who can't guide you in selecting the right model.
3) A one year warranty, which you most likely won't need (c'mon, if you are spending that much on something, its gotta work for one year atleast!)

Check with your local grey market. I am sure you could get better price for an INTERNATIONAL MODEL which do not require a transformer! Don't go for a US model as you may face several power supply related issues.

My Yamaha AVR was purchased after heavy negotiation at around 18k when it was selling for 35k+ in showrooms in Delhi! And I got an international model which has universal power options.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Check with your local grey market. I am sure you could get better price for an INTERNATIONAL MODEL which do not require a transformer! Don't go for a US model as you may face several power supply related issues.

My Yamaha AVR was purchased after heavy negotiation at around 18k when it was selling for 35k+ in showrooms in Delhi! And I got an international model which has universal power options.

wow..that's a steal! - where did you get it from in Bangalore? (assuming you got it from Bangalore coz your location says so) - was it S.P.Road or something? (I lived in blore for over 3 years) - don't know where they would sell this stuff in Hyderabad, though.

 

[prankey]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

wow..that's a steal! - where did you get it from in Bangalore? (assuming you got it from Bangalore coz your location says so) - was it S.P.Road or something? (I lived in blore for over 3 years) - don't know where they would sell this stuff in Hyderabad, though.

Bangalore's grey market is around National Market.

I got it from Delhi. Got in touch with a dealer there (he is still working, however deals more on Marantz AVRs and Speakers now). I met him thru "bazee.com" (now ebay.in)

I can give you his number if interested, he might source the AVR for you. I am also aware of a grey dealer in Bangalore. Will check with him tomorrow on the pricing of these AVRs.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Fedexp.

Let me try to simplify things for you a little.

For good audio setup, there are 3 things needed. Good room, good speakers and good receiver. More than anything, the room plays a huge role in how any of the speakers will sound. If your room has all the plain walls, the reflections will be muddying up the sound a lot. There are two ways to do this. Do room treatment by putting absorbers/diffusers. There are different ways/techniques to do it, and a lot depends upon the aesthetics cause this is your living room as well. For living room, more things you have on the wall the better is diffusion.

Well, my wall diagram is here (just in case you missed it). I'd could think of ways to cover up walls with stuff and get more furniture - but I think with one part of it being open - its going impact sound badly.

Then we come to the next part - Speakers. We obviously need good speakers. One characteristic for speakers is how flat is the frequency response across the listening range, usually between 60 Hz to 20KHz.

I would also suggest looking for a dedicated, good subwoofer. If you want good slam, you would need atleast 15" + sub. I have a 13x20 room like you, with 5.5 ft opening to another room. I use two 18" sub woofers. For subs, look for 20Hz to 120 Hz frequency response. If you want room shaking performance, then 10Hz to 20Hz response would matter a lot.

Ok, so here is what the speaker spec sheet says for the Onkyo 9300THX:
Front Speaker : Max Pow -130W, Impedance:8Ohm,Freq: 50Hz-45kHz.
Center: Same as above.
Surround: Same as above.
Sub: 125W minimum power (6 Ohms, 100 Hz, Maximum 1% THD), Freq: 20Hz-100Hz.

And this is what the KEF, T-series spec says:
Satellites: 80Hz-30KHz, 8Ohm, Max output: 107dB.
Sub: 30hz - 250Hz, 110dB max output, 250W builtin class D amp.

So, as per what you said, the Onkyo's sub must be better coz it handles lower frequencies and the same applies to Onkyo speakers? If that is the case, then why are KEFs rated superior to Onkyo? (the Onkyo manager says so too!)

Like you said, I am looking for that room-shaking performance. I really want the sub to fill in movie effects coz most of the time i'd be watching movies on my HT setup. When I auditioned all those HT's nothing came close to the huge thud in the truck scene of batman (the truck flips and falls on its back) and that thud is supposed send huge waves underneath your feet - the only thing that came close was the 96lac focal set up. The onkyo 9300 seemed like it had a chance - but I didn't get to play the same scene on it. I guess, buying an extra sub - means buying a x.2 receiver? Am I correct? So I gotta look for 7.2 receivers I guess?

1. First is the Digital to Analog section. Almost all our sources are digital now, so the D/A converter section of the receiver means a lot. Burr Brown D/A is considered very good quality, so look for the receivers that has Burr Brown at least.

The Receiver in onkyo 9300THX is HT-R980. And I believe it has Burr Brown and spec sheet reads: "Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-Bit DACs (PCM1690) for All Channels". So, do you think this is a good receiver?

4. The modern speakers can matrix 2 channel/5 channels to 5.1/7.1. If you want to do the matrixing, then look for receivers which is Dolby PLIIx/z. PLIIz can do 9.1/9.2.

The Onkyo receiver mentioned above also has Dolby Pro Logic IIz for New Surround Channels - I think I'd want to do matrixing.

Thank you for your advice, Manoj. Much appreciated.

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Well, my wall diagram is here (just in case you missed it). I'd could think of ways to cover up walls with stuff and get more furniture - but I think with one part of it being open - its going impact sound badly.

Okay, that makes much clear now. The way your one side (left from listening position) is totally open, your left sound and right sound will have trouble matching. Because on left side, there will be almost zero reflections, but you will have reflections on right side. To get both adjusted, you will need to treat the right side wall, at least for first reflections. Another way you can try is keep speakers bit away from right wall. If your receiver has room correction, running that also will certainly help.

Ok, so here is what the speaker spec sheet says for the Onkyo 9300THX:
Front Speaker : Max Pow -130W, Impedance:8Ohm,Freq: 50Hz-45kHz.
Center: Same as above.
Surround: Same as above.
Sub: 125W minimum power (6 Ohms, 100 Hz, Maximum 1% THD), Freq: 20Hz-100Hz.

And this is what the KEF, T-series spec says:
Satellites: 80Hz-30KHz, 8Ohm, Max output: 107dB.
Sub: 30hz - 250Hz, 110dB max output, 250W builtin class D amp.

So, as per what you said, the Onkyo's sub must be better coz it handles lower frequencies and the same applies to Onkyo speakers? If that is the case, then why are KEFs rated superior to Onkyo? (the Onkyo manager says so too!)

I looked at the specs of Onkyo9300. They do not specify the +/- db point. Also, they have not specified on axis, off axis performance. I have not listened to KEF's, but most of the speaker quality shows off when we listen to off-axis performance. Its not possible to seat exactly on-axis, except for one seat. Also, the speakers have their own characteristics and alter the sound a bit. Some are bass heavy, some are treble heavy and some are just plain accurate. The HTIB speakers many times don't have these good qualities because they have to meet certain price points.[/quote]

Like you said, I am looking for that room-shaking performance. I really want the sub to fill in movie effects coz most of the time i'd be watching movies on my HT setup. When I auditioned all those HT's nothing came close to the huge thud in the truck scene of batman (the truck flips and falls on its back) and that thud is supposed send huge waves underneath your feet - the only thing that came close was the 96lac focal set up. The onkyo 9300 seemed like it had a chance - but I didn't get to play the same scene on it.

The room shaking performance comes from sub 20Hz output. That means, the sub has to move lots of air. That's where you need more subs and powerful amps. With a open room like yours, you won't have a benefit of room gain and to make an impact of air pressure, you may need to go the route of multiple subs to get the room shaking performance. Now, whether its economical is another question. Many people in US have the same dilemma and hence the DIY route. You can take a look at diy subwoofer building threads and if you can source the drivers + amps, that a very good way to get everything done under budget. Take a look at this thread at AVS. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1319489
If looking at commercial, then consider the Hsu Research subs. I believe they have a dealer in Chennai. Their subs are very renowned. Again, you will need to do the balancing act. But I would rather start with good speakers first, listen for some time, and then add the sub. Its always better to do it step by step. Doing all at once may not get you optimum performance.

I guess, buying an extra sub - means buying a x.2 receiver? Am I correct? So I gotta look for 7.2 receivers I guess?

No, you just need one sub output. Then you can use an RCA splitter to split signal into two.

The Receiver in onkyo 9300THX is HT-R980. And I believe it has Burr Brown and spec sheet reads: "Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-Bit DACs (PCM1690) for All Channels". So, do you think this is a good receiver?

Not necessarily good receiver, but having a Burr-Brown dac is a plus. Its considered good DAC's.

The Onkyo receiver mentioned above also has Dolby Pro Logic IIz for New Surround Channels - I think I'd want to do matrixing.

PLIIz does the height or wide channels if you want to use those in future.

Thank you for your advice, Manoj. Much appreciated.

You're welcome.

 

[marsilians]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

I am getting back into action after a hiatus due to personal reasons...


You missed a few things in your attempt to simplify...almost there but not quite yet.

Couple more things to consider for good audio is the source components and the content itself. GIGO mantra works very well here too.

Also the sub you are suggesting could be way overkill. A decent 12 inch sub for the room dimensions you have provided will provide amazing response be it for music or HT.

quality of sub is really the ask here.

Again since I have been away for few months pardon me if I have missed the obvious in earlier posts but I wanted to bring a better clarity to fedexp's questions.

Fedexp.

Let me try to simplify things for you a little.

For good audio setup, there are 3 things needed. Good room, good speakers and good receiver. More than anything, the room plays a huge role in how any of the speakers will sound. If your room has all the plain walls, the reflections will be muddying up the sound a lot. There are two ways to do this. Do room treatment by putting absorbers/diffusers. There are different ways/techniques to do it, and a lot depends upon the aesthetics cause this is your living room as well. For living room, more things you have on the wall the better is diffusion. That's one way to achieve it.

Then we come to the next part - Speakers. We obviously need good speakers. One characteristic for speakers is how flat is the frequency response across the listening range, usually between 60 Hz to 20KHz. A higher efficiency/sensitivity speakers need less power/watts from receiver to produce louder sound. Any speakers that are not going to exaggerate bass or higher frequencies will be a good start. Another point that we tend to overlook is how is the off-axis frequency response. Meaning if you are off-center, how the speakers sound. Most of the sound stage experience come from these and then the proper placement. Again, this is a big topic.

That brings us to the last one - receiver. It's the case of garbage in, garbage out. There are two basic things in the receiver that has the most bearing on how the speakers will sound.
1. First is the Digital to Analog section. Almost all our sources are digital now, so the D/A converter section of the receiver means a lot. Burr Brown D/A is considered very good quality, so look for the receivers that has Burr Brown at least.
2. Amplifier section - This is very important. Look for a receiver which has enough amp power to drive your speakers. Look beyond the rated specs. Many times, manufacturer's list the watts/channel but they are not rated at simultaneously run. If you run the multi-channel speakers, the the power needed for driving speakers will be reduced. In those cases, the amp clips the signal and lose clarity. A 80 watts/channel is good place to start but read up reviews too.
3. Since we cannot treat all our rooms, one way is to do is room correction. Many receivers come with Audessey Room correction. There are different levels of it and its really a choice. But sometimes Audessey does do a good job at correcting common issues of rooms.
4. The modern speakers can matrix 2 channel/5 channels to 5.1/7.1. If you want to do the matrixing, then look for receivers which is Dolby PLIIx/z. PLIIz can do 9.1/9.2.

I would also suggest looking for a dedicated, good subwoofer. If you want good slam, you would need atleast 15" + sub. I have a 13x20 room like you, with 5.5 ft opening to another room. I use two 18" sub woofers. For subs, look for 20Hz to 120 Hz frequency response. If you want room shaking performance, then 10Hz to 20Hz response would matter a lot.

That's what comes to mind so far. Hope this helps.

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Couple more things to consider for good audio is the source components and the content itself. GIGO mantra works very well here too.

Agree. We need good, clean source. Although the demands for good source are very low in audio compared to video. Very few can tell a difference between DD 5.1 and DD THD lossless, unless, its 7.1 discrete. Again, there is difference, but not so much like day and night in actual listening.

Also the sub you are suggesting could be way overkill. A decent 12 inch sub for the room dimensions you have provided will provide amazing response be it for music or HT.

I will have to respectfully disagree here. My room is 13x20 and opens to another 14x19 room. Like Fedexp, I wanted to have room shaking experience. So, the need was to have good output down till 10 hz. It's quite simple physics actually. For shaking performance, you need to move lot of air and an 18" driver area itself is about 44% more than 12". Naturally it does move a whole lot air. Another requirement was to have a tight bass so that leaves vented subs out. I started at one single 18" sub. It had good bass but not enough to pressurize the 2300 cf leaky room. So the option was to add one more. It also helped to improve seat to seat consistency and took out two nulls in the room.
Another thing to note is - I have never seen anyone post an in room frequency chart and show usable output below 20 Hz from a single 12" sub. They are good, but mostly in 40Hz + range. If you know any such sub, please share with me. I can use it when I move to India, so don't have to lug around my two 18" subs.

quality of sub is really the ask here.

Totally agree here. A quality sub makes a lot of difference to a audio system.

I recommended an 18" sub because Fedexp wanted that big slam and room shaking performance. Top of that, he has no wall one side altogether. That's a big room to fill the sound. A 12" sub is fine and no problem with it. It's just setting the expectations right and understanding limitation. If he buys a 12" expecting below 20Hz output, he is going to have remorse.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Agree. We need good, clean source. Although the demands for good source are very low in audio compared to video. Very few can tell a difference between DD 5.1 and DD THD lossless, unless, its 7.1 discrete. Again, there is difference, but not so much like day and night in actual listening.

When it comes to source, I have about 200 movies in HD - All of them either in 720p/1080p/BD. So, yea, most of my audio would be DTS-MA/ True-HD or atleast DTS/DD5.1. And all of my content is digital.

I recommended an 18" sub because Fedexp wanted that big slam and room shaking performance. Top of that, he has no wall one side altogether. That's a big room to fill the sound. A 12" sub is fine and no problem with it. It's just setting the expectations right and understanding limitation. If he buys a 12" expecting below 20Hz output, he is going to have remorse.

Manoj, a little correction here - my room is about 14ft in width and 25ft in length. However, this 14x25 is the living + dining area. So my living room area would be around 14x16. Say I somehow close the open wall of my room (using a curtain or a wodden partition) - do you still think a 12" sub wouldn't do it for that size a room? I am definetly not looking for a room shaking performance in my dining area for sure.

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

If sub 20Hz is not a concern, then yes, 12" will be fine. You don't even need to put a partition. If you do want to put it, then do a wood partition as curtains won't help much. The wood partition will allow your sub to go lower in freq because of smaller cubic volume. Most of the music is roughly around 40Hz and above. With these, a 12" will do fine. Its the movies that go lower, some even to 5Hz or something.

One more suggestion - see if you can do some room treatments, like bass traps or something. your room will be concrete and reflections will make it sound really boomy. I know its your living room too, so you are very limited aesthetically. Try raising the sub from the floor a bit and may be use some thick rug/carpet in the immediate ares of the speakers. That will make a lot of difference to your listening, than say upgrading speakers. Once you have the room taken care of, then upgrade the speakers if you feel the need for it.