Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speakers?

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Secondly, the final price I'd get this whole package would be
INR 60,000 (MRP for fronts,center,sub and surrounds) + 20,000 (yamaha v667 import) - I'd like to negotiate and see if I can get it down to 50,000 (for the fronts, center, sub and surrounds) - that would get me the whole thing for 70,000 INR another 2-5k for wiring and installation - so a total setup for 75,000INR. What do you think about this pricing? Think its good?

Alternatively, I could go talk to the Onkyo dealer and get the equally-good-but-just-a-crappy-center Onkyo THX 9300, (which is at an MRP of 83,000) negotiate and try and get it for 70-73k, and then import a ButtKicker from USA (via a friend) for 18k INR - so my total spend would be 88K-90K - but with the great reviews that ButtKicker has, I'm sure it will add a new dimension to the whole movie watching experience, and just enough to make me forgive myself for having purchased the 9300THX even after liking Polk

Thinking about the Onkyo - considering it is a 7.1, I tried to turn my whole setup by 90 to see how well it would accommodate the 7.1 and here is what it looks like (with almost realistic distances):

The living room now looks a little less roomy. The best view is for the single love seat at about 9 feet from the tv, people sitting in the sofa or the sofa chairs would be about 2 feet or less diagonally from the tv. The center table is only going to be about 3 feet from all sides and the sofa and the love seat are less than a feet away diagonally - I think this would suck real bad just to walk around in the living area. What do you guys think?

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Fedexp,

Step in the right direction. You can try making the layout in the original way, with the partition and compare the two.
But yes, the front of the seats is quite close to the TV. Either you will need to move the couch further behind or reduce the furniture on the sides.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Secondly, the final price I'd get this whole package would be
INR 60,000 (MRP for fronts,center,sub and surrounds) + 20,000 (yamaha v667 import) - I'd like to negotiate and see if I can get it down to 50,000 (for the fronts, center, sub and surrounds) - that would get me the whole thing for 70,000 INR another 2-5k for wiring and installation - so a total setup for 75,000INR. What do you think about this pricing? Think its good?

Would appreciate a quick reply - I'll have to order that amp on amazon.com by tomorrow.

Folks, your comments on the pricing, please.

 

[sdurani]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

I realize that 7.1 needs a bigger room than I have

Size doesn't matter. Actually, let me rephrase that. Room size is not as much a determinant for 7.1 as seating location is. You could be in a large room but have your seating at/near the back wall and you would still be a poor candidate for a 7.1 set-up (no space behind you for the rear speakers). By comparison, my first 7.1 layout (back in 1991) was in a small 11x13.5-foot spare bedroom. My small sofa was 8 feet back from the front wall, which allowed the rear speakers to be a full 5 feet behind me. Had excellent side vs rear separation in the surround field.

I might not be able to tell the diff much in all the movies - it is obviously going to depend on movies with these kind of sound tracks.

True, not in all movies, but in enough movies. If you can tell the difference between sound coming from your sides vs sound coming from behind you, then you'll be able to appreciate a 7.1 set-up.

Do you think I should get satellites instead of floor-standers for the fronts?

If the subwoofer is going to handle the bass, why do you need large floorstanding speakers that go into the bass range?

My HT consultant keeps emphasizing the fact that the floor-standers have a larger throw which means I'd need a viewing distance greater than my current 13ft. Is this true?

I don't understand what you mean by larger throw. If you need louder sound, then turn up the volume.

Between your two choices of receivers, I would pick the Onkyo for its better room correction (Audyssey) and PLIIz processsing. The latter allows you to do height speakers. So you can do a different type of 7.1: 3 front, 2 surrounds, 2 heights (placed high up on the front wall).

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

If you can tell the difference between sound coming from your sides vs sound coming from behind you, then you'll be able to appreciate a 7.1 set-up.

I'd love to have this kind of setup - and I am seriously considering rotating my setup by 90 degrees now.

If the subwoofer is going to handle the bass, why do you need large floorstanding speakers that go into the bass range? I don't understand what you mean by larger throw. If you need louder sound, then turn up the volume.

Good point - I'd have to reconsider the floor standers.

Between your two choices of receivers, I would pick the Onkyo for its better room correction (Audyssey) and PLIIz processsing. The latter allows you to do height speakers. So you can do a different type of 7.1: 3 front, 2 surrounds, 2 heights (placed high up on the front wall).

Ok, this is interesting. I didn't know I could have 2 heights on the front wall! How different would it be from having them on the back wall? Oh ok, you meant by having a receiver that can do PLIIz processing, it wouldn't matter where my left and right backs are placed? They could be placed in the front too?
Yamaha's AMP has a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder, is this different from Dolby Pro Logic IIz? And room correction, yes, I've heard good things about Audyssey, but, I guess, v667 has YPAO room sound correction. Don't how good this is compared to Audyssey - any idea?

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Between your two choices of receivers, I would pick the Onkyo for its better room correction (Audyssey) and PLIIz processsing. The latter allows you to do height speakers. So you can do a different type of 7.1: 3 front, 2 surrounds, 2 heights (placed high up on the front wall).

A review here from Cnet, suggests that PLIIz processing is a dud! Hmm, I was excited for a while thinking that I could have two heights to resolve my problems

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

A review here from Cnet, suggests that PLIIz processing is a dud! Hmm, I was excited for a while thinking that I could have two heights to resolve my problems

Ok, I realize after reading a bit that the two heights are only to create a bigger sound stage and not for replacing your left and right backs. PLIIz did receive a lot of negative press, indeed, when it was released.

 

[sdurani]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

I am seriously considering rotating my setup by 90 degrees now.

I'm going to gently remind you that the space is intended to be a living room first and foremost, with home theatre as a secondary function. So stick to whatever floor plan you're comfortable with. Personally, I would prefer using a couch as a room divider rather than a wall. But that's me. If you feel that rotating the set-up 90 degrees would "suck real bad" to walk around in, then don't do it. It's easy for me to make suggestions, but you actually have to live with the results. Again, don't do anything you're not comfortable with.

I'd have to reconsider the floor standers.

Compared to smaller models in the same speaker line, floor standers usually aren't any better, they simply go lower. And that's fine if you plan on doing a 2-speaker set-up and need some bass. But if the low frequencies are going to be handled by a subwoofer anyway, then why do you need the extra bass response from your speakers? For the record, I just use three of the same (bookshelf) speakers across the front.

I didn't know I could have 2 heights on the front wall! How different would it be from having them on the back wall? Oh ok, you meant by having a receiver that can do PLIIz processing, it wouldn't matter where my left and right backs are placed? They could be placed in the front too?

If you do a 5.1-speaker configuration, then you will have two amplifier channels left over. Some receivers (like the Onkyo) allow you to assign these unused amp channels for another function. You can use them for a second zone (patio speakers), or assign them to rear speakers (if your seating is well away from the back wall), or use them for height speakers (if you don't have space behind you for rears).

BTW, those aren't "left and right backs" that would be placed up front. They're just a pair of speakers. If you configure them as rears, then the receiver will extract surround-back information and send it to those speakers. If you configure them as heights, then the receiver will extract overhead information and send it to those speakers. If you configure them for a second zone, then the receiver will send them a stereo downmix of whatever you're listening to.

Yamaha's AMP has a Dolby Pro Logic II decoder, is this different from Dolby Pro Logic IIz?

PLII is for up to 5 speakers (3 front, 2 surrounds). PLIIx is for up to 7 speakers (3 front, 2 sides, 2 rears). PLIIz is for up to 9 speakers (3 front, 2 sides, 2 rears, 2 heights).

And room correction, yes, I've heard good things about Audyssey, but, I guess, v667 has YPAO room sound correction. Don't how good this is compared to Audyssey - any idea?

YPAO tries to get a flat frequency response at the main listening position. Audyssey goes further, in a couple of ways: improves the response for multiple seats AND works in the time domain to reduce room resonances (frequencies with long decay times that linger in the room and muddy up the sound).

I was excited for a while thinking that I could have two heights to resolve my problems

Which problems?

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

I'm going to gently remind you that the space is intended to be a living room first and foremost, with home theatre as a secondary function. So stick to whatever floor plan you're comfortable with. Personally, I would prefer using a couch as a room divider rather than a wall. But that's me. If you feel that rotating the set-up 90 degrees would "suck real bad" to walk around in, then don't do it. It's easy for me to make suggestions, but you actually have to live with the results.

Well, this is what I've decided, I am getting speaker points re done now - more points in more places - so that once everything is ready, I'll be able to put speakers up in diff places, hear things out and see how they sound and then place speakers in those positions. I think given the situation (my apartment being in construction stage) - this is the best way to go about things.

BTW, those aren't "left and right backs" that would be placed up front. They're just a pair of speakers. If you configure them as rears, then the receiver will extract surround-back information and send it to those speakers. If you configure them as heights, then the receiver will extract overhead information and send it to those speakers. If you configure them for a second zone, then the receiver will send them a stereo downmix of whatever you're listening to. PLII is for up to 5 speakers (3 front, 2 surrounds). PLIIx is for up to 7 speakers (3 front, 2 sides, 2 rears). PLIIz is for up to 9 speakers (3 front, 2 sides, 2 rears, 2 heights).

Thanks for the clarification. Guess what, I'm ordering an Onkyo - Onkyo NR609 - sounds like a great receiver from the reviews. (also the fact that I liked Onkyo for movies overall in my auditions, your suggestions, and finally the price difference of 40$ between v667 and nr609, made me change my decision in the last minute).

YPAO tries to get a flat frequency response at the main listening position. Audyssey goes further, in a couple of ways: improves the response for multiple seats AND works in the time domain to reduce room resonances (frequencies with long decay times that linger in the room and muddy up the sound).

Again, this explanation is one of the reasons for my preferring of Onkyo to Yamaha.

I have a question for you, Sanjay: My HT consultant tells me that the left back and right back surrounds when placed on the rear wall, high up would be about 11-12ft from the couch (as per the new 90degree twisted furniture layout). He says, 12 feet is too far for those surrounds and I'd miss out on detail even though they don't come into picture most of the time in all the movies. What do you think about this? Do you think distances won't matter as long as the speakers are powerful enough and the angle is correct?

Btw, Sanjay, how do you have answers to everything?! Your knowledge depth amazes me - You are truly a living av encyclopedia! Thank you so much for all your inputs so far.

 

[sdurani]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

My HT consultant tells me that the left back and right back surrounds when placed on the rear wall, high up would be about 11-12ft from the couch (as per the new 90degree twisted furniture layout). He says, 12 feet is too far for those surrounds and I'd miss out on detail even though they don't come into picture most of the time in all the movies. What do you think about this? Do you think distances won't matter as long as the speakers are powerful enough and the angle is correct?

If your HT consultant felt that placing speakers 11-12ft away is too far and you'd miss out on details, then how would he have felt about your initial plan to place the (more important) front speakers 12-13ft away? Wouldn't this have been a severe mis-match with the surrounds only a couple of feet above you?

Fact is, distances don't matter. Suppose you have two speakers, one is 6 feet away and the other is 12 feet away. Naturally, sound from closer speaker will be louder AND will arrive at your ears sooner. So you lower the volume of that speaker by 3dB and delay the signal to that speaker by 6 milliseconds. Having compensated properly, now both speakers sound like they are the same distance away.

Modern receivers perform initial calibration automatically, using a (supplied) measurement microphone placed at the main listening position. Each speaker gets the appropriate boost or cut AND signal delay to properly compensate for their distance away. End result: all your speakers sound like they are in a perfect equidistant circle around you. Again, distances don't matter.

BTW, calibrating and room correction are different. The latter takes measurements from a few seating locations to figure out what the room is adding to the sound and uses equalization to compensate for that.

Sanjay, how do you have answers to everything?!

I don't. But I'm fortunate to be surrounded by friends in this hobby that are far more knowledgeable than me. For example, Manoj is constantly bringing me up to date on projectors, 3-D and video in general. Besides, I'm just the naturally curious type. Constantly tinkering with my system, then trying to dig up research papers (thank goodness for Google) to find out why I heard certain changes. After all, that's what a hobby is for: keeping you occupied when you're not at work or chasing women.

Good Luck,

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Btw, Sanjay, how do you have answers to everything?! Your knowledge depth amazes me - You are truly a living av encyclopedia! Thank you so much for all your inputs so far.

If you want to know how knows so much, I think his this post says it all -

my first 7.1 layout (back in 1991)

Sanjay,
You call my blabbering about future projector upgrade as bringing up to date? Well, then you're welcome.

For example, Manoj is constantly bringing me up to date on projectors, 3-D and video in general.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Guys, I have ordered nr609 from amazon.com. Would you guys recommend getting any other accessories? More HDMI cables? I'm buying the speaker wire here coz I have to get the wiring done this week. Other than these what else am I going to need that is cheap out there and expensive here?

 

[utkarsh]

What is the price for nr609. Have u decided the speakers. I'm also planning to buy the same.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

What is the price for nr609. Have u decided the speakers. I'm also planning to buy the same.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk

449$ from amazon.com with two-day shipping charges of 40$, total of 489$ = 21,732 INR.
For now, I liked Polks in my auditions. So mostly it will be Tsi3000 (floor standers for fronts), PSW125 (Polk sub), OWM3 (Polk surrounds) and CS-10 for Center (Polk again). The total cost for a 5.1 setup MRP for the above was around 60K (mostly another 2 speakers as left and right back would add another 7-8k).
Most likely, I will go back and do another round of audition with my nr 609 and see what pairs well. Will get Polk CS-10 center though, just amazing clarity.

 

[sandeep2082in]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

whichever AV receiver you pick it's always gonna have it's limitations where audio quality is concerned. AV receivers can never sound like an anologue amplifiers and so it utter waste investing in an expensive AV receiver. Go for good audiophile grade speaker system which not only will sound good even on an ordinary receiver but also keep an option open for future upgrades. Select speakers after carefully understanding their specs.

 

[sandeep2082in]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

whichever AV receiver you pick it's always gonna have it's limitations where audio quality is concerned. AV receivers can never sound like an anologue amplifiers and so it utter waste investing in an expensive AV receiver. Go for good audiophile grade speaker system which not only will sound good even on an ordinary receiver but also keep an option open for future upgrades. Select speakers after carefully understanding their specs.(power handling, Roll-off points,driver compliment etc..)

 

[sdurani]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

AV receivers can never sound like an anologue amplifiers and so it utter waste investing in an expensive AV receiver.

Don't AV receivers contain analogue amplifiers?

Go for good audiophile grade speaker system which not only will sound good even on an ordinary receiver but also keep an option open for future upgrades. Select speakers after carefully understanding their specs.(power handling, Roll-off points,driver compliment etc..)

Do you work for a speaker manufacturer by any chance?

 

[BoyzRUs]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

If your HT consultant felt that placing speakers 11-12ft away is too far and you'd miss out on details, then how would he have felt about your initial plan to place the (more important) front speakers 12-13ft away? Wouldn't this have been a severe mis-match with the surrounds only a couple of feet above you?

As you can see, I am pretty new to the forum, but looks like there's some sensible talk happening out here on this post. Just a question to sdurani: From the choice of equipment that fedexp posted earlier, it looks like the fronts are more powerful and are 3-way. In that case, isn't it right to say they can cover larger areas than the surrounds, at the same volume level? If that's not the case, why use powerful/ wide-range fronts? How will surrounds being closer be the same as the fronts being closer to the listening position? If distance doesn't matter, is it okay to say the surrounds he is using, can be used for a 30 ft long room as well?

Really appreciate your answers on these. Though the questions sound like I'm challenging your opinions, that is not my intention. I just want to understand better and take advantage of your knowledge. And hell yeah, I agree with fedexp and manoj.p that
you are a knowledge bank in yourself! Way to go!

 

[manoj.p]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

I know this question is for Sanjay, but let me take a jibe.
He answered it in the same post.

Fact is, distances don't matter. Suppose you have two speakers, one is 6 feet away and the other is 12 feet away. Naturally, sound from closer speaker will be louder AND will arrive at your ears sooner. So you lower the volume of that speaker by 3dB and delay the signal to that speaker by 6 milliseconds. Having compensated properly, now both speakers sound like they are the same distance away.

Modern receivers perform initial calibration automatically, using a (supplied) measurement microphone placed at the main listening position. Each speaker gets the appropriate boost or cut AND signal delay to properly compensate for their distance away. End result: all your speakers sound like they are in a perfect equidistant circle around you. Again, distances don't matter.

Just to simplify, all the receivers come with audio calibration and almost all supply the setup mic. Once you connect it to AVR, and put the mic in listening position, it runs the test sounds, one speaker at a time. Based on that, it calculates the distance of that speakers. It also finds that speaker db level. Then it adjust the db level of each speaker, so all the speakers are same db level at listening position. It also adjusts the delay for each speaker based on the distances, so all the sound comes at the same time at listening position.
Sometimes, the setup software does not measure the distances correctly, due to room acoustics. Then end user can go into setup menu and enter the distances manually.

Now, whether the surrounds can be used in a 30ft long room: The avr will try adjust the db level for the surrounds, to the extent it can be that loud. If the surrounds are not efficient, then they may distort if reached to that high level db. In that case, you may need to look at different surrounds. In most cases, it will work though, cause surrounds are not used as much the fronts.

 

[fedexp]

Re: Does pairing a good AV receiver matter more to a HTS than having excellent speake

Guys, I have ordered nr609 from amazon.com. Would you guys recommend getting any other accessories? More HDMI cables? I'm buying the speaker wire here coz I have to get the wiring done this week. Other than these what else am I going to need that is cheap out there and expensive here?

BUMP! Guys, any suggestions? I have HDMI cables for everything I use, what else am I going to need other than HDMI cables and speaker wire?